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Stop The Massachusetts Department of Conservation and Recreation - BACKGROUNG AND UPDATE

WaterWalker

Well-known member
From what I have found Mass CM 304 was rescinded except for the traffic and parking sections. CMR 304.12.11 addressed DCR beach detecting. There were two regulating divisions that combined and the 302DRAFT was written in August 2013, public comment time was in November2013, vote was to be in December. There is only two places in the new 302.04.23.(h) and 302.12.17(2) regulate metal detectors. Horses are NOT pets and the gun toters won some ground at the open hearings...NO mention of metal detectors. It looks like it is a done deal unless the commission is presented with an appeal for a change at this point. This change ONLY controls DCR FRESH, SALT WATER BEACHES AND ALL THEIR PARKS. I have E-mailed the commissioner via Energy and Environmental Affairs asking for further explainations on April 19th with no reply as of today (4-2:geek:.

This link shows generally what has taken place so far:

http://www.mass.gov/eea/docs/dcr/news/public-meetings/materials/sc/2013-october-presentation.pdf

This link is the new regulation darft:

http://www.mass.gov/eea/docs/dcr/news/public-meetings/materials/policies-and-regs/302-cmr-12-draft-8-23-13.pdf
 
thanx for the links. I don't see ANYTHING, in either of those two links, specifically saying anything about "metal detectors" or "metal detecting". Just the usual verbage about "no conducting archaeological surveys" and "no taking historic artifacts" etc...

Ok, fine. I don't find any coins over 50 yrs. old. DO YOU ?

Thus thanx for the links. Looks like this has gone by the way-side as a fear for Massachusetts, eh ?
 
In the presentation:

Page 2 lower left pane shows were CMR 302. rescinds CMR 304.12.11 (3) which stated: No person shall use or offer for use metal detectors on Department property except at the discretion of the Area Supervisor on designated swimming beaches and designated campsites. And that the traffic and parking sections 304.12.23 were not rescinded.

302.04.23 (h)

Page 15/44 is where No person may: Use or offer for use of metal detectors, except with the permission from DCR personnel, for the purpose of locating lost personal property.

302.12.17 (2)

Page 39/44 Special Use Permit requirements are spelled out.
 
...In laymens terms...

Basically it was always not allowed unless you had permission. And loosly enforced at best.

Now the ability to give permission is no longer in the hands of the person in charge. And you need a special use permit for it [which will likely never be issued to anyone] and you must be looking for lost personal property.

Effectively, banned. Seeing as how there is now a citation for being caught detecting. According to year round grade 18 ranger the rule will be enforced.

The troubling thing here. If you were to go to your local rep and complain about people metal detecting on the beach, you would likely be told that there are to many more important issues at hand and that your complaint would be addressed when they had time for it. And now, that the rule is or has been changed if you go in their and complain...you will be told the same thing.

So, why was our time, money, and some ones effort put into changing this in the first place?

I will say one thing. The next time minelab comes to assachusetts, they should include something charitable in their freaking field event on our state beaches.

Things that can be done. Sign the petition that is online already. To bad you can't post a link here to it or even mention the other sites. I won't get into that anymore.

You can also write your state rep, and senator. Request a meeting with them. You can ask for a friends help, and hand them a pretyped letter with a stamped envelop...

For the rule to be changed we need to speak up!
 
joeb1999 said:
... Basically it was always not allowed unless you had permission.

And are you suggesting for a minute, that all the md'rs prior to this, had the "permission" that you speak of ? Or did NOT have the permissoin ? If not, then ... essentially .... everyone was running around "breaking the law" prior to this, eh?

If that's anything like CA's wording (if the FMDAC state-by-state list is to be believed), IT TOO says something to the effect of "with permission of park's office". Hmm, ok. But trust me, NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE STATE OF CA has ever needed to ask for our state park's beaches. No one alerts the ranger upon coming or going, or whatever such thing that state by state list says. But the truth is, no one cares, and it's never been an issue. In fact, I think if someone WERE to to ask the ranger here "can I?" they'd either a) look at them like they were from outer space, or b) start digging deep into minutia, find something silly about indian bones, and tell you "no". Moral of the story: leave good enough alone and don't ask silly questions, eh ?


joeb1999 said:
....So, why was our time, money, and some ones effort put into changing this in the first place? ....

Ha, GOOD QUESTION ! And I've got a strong hunch suspicion. Anyone want to beat me to the punch and say the answer ? :poke:
 
'Cause somebody asked? :shrug: :rofl:

Aw hell fellas, just go swing away...if an authority figure approaches you in an obtuse fashion, (which I doubt will EVER happen) with the intent to make an arrest, dont try to reason or argue in a logical manner, just start drooling and babbling and then pee your pants...you will get off with a warning...nobody wants to hassle with a crazy person....or a tourist!:lmfao:
Mud
 
haha.

I know a guy who's bilingual in German. And one day someone came down to him on a city-owned beach, and was trying to tell him some bologna . My friend didn't have time to deal with the guy, or answer his "20 questions", so he just gave him an odd look, and started speaking to him in German. The busy-body , thinking the guy didn't speak english, just gave up and walked away. He didn't try the "pee your pants" trick though! ha

Hey, just tell them your wife lost her wedding ring there. I mean, c'mon guys, how complicated can this be ? :look:
 
Ha! I do that too! When approached by a panhandler in a big city, I say "Volle le futballparken"? Or, "Toute toute de swie, toute toute de swa?"

I think the first one is Danish, and the second, perhaps French, not sure, anyway it does work! They think I'm a foreigner and leave me alone for the most part!
Mud
 
Its funny. The wording was fuzzy. It was more of a "better to beg for forgiveness then to ask for permission.". But ya, its always basically been an issue. Now we face a citation. Just baffles me, why why metal detecting. We fill our holes in, we are not bothering anyone. lol. I suppose Ill just hunt when the park you know whats are not around. hh an gl -Joe

Tom_in_CA said:
joeb1999 said:
... Basically it was always not allowed unless you had permission.

And are you suggesting for a minute, that all the md'rs prior to this, had the "permission" that you speak of ? Or did NOT have the permissoin ? If not, then ... essentially .... everyone was running around "breaking the law" prior to this, eh?

If that's anything like CA's wording (if the FMDAC state-by-state list is to be believed), IT TOO says something to the effect of "with permission of park's office". Hmm, ok. But trust me, NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE STATE OF CA has ever needed to ask for our state park's beaches. No one alerts the ranger upon coming or going, or whatever such thing that state by state list says. But the truth is, no one cares, and it's never been an issue. In fact, I think if someone WERE to to ask the ranger here "can I?" they'd either a) look at them like they were from outer space, or b) start digging deep into minutia, find something silly about indian bones, and tell you "no". Moral of the story: leave good enough alone and don't ask silly questions, eh ?


joeb1999 said:
....So, why was our time, money, and some ones effort put into changing this in the first place? ....

Ha, GOOD QUESTION ! And I've got a strong hunch suspicion. Anyone want to beat me to the punch and say the answer ? :poke:
 
joeb1999 said:
.... But ya, its always basically been an issue. Now we face a citation. Just baffles me, why why metal detecting. We fill our holes in, we are not bothering anyone. ....

I have a strong suspicion why it goes from the "no one ever cared" to now. And no, it's not the silly TV shows. No, it's not holes (this is the BEACH afterall, not turf). And no, it's not archies who saw an md'r and said to themselves "oh my, he *might* find an old coin".

Anyone care to beat me to the draw and say why it's now an issue ?
 
Lets hear it from you first, you have us all wondering. Because I cannot find a ryme or reason...

-Joe


Tom_in_CA said:
joeb1999 said:
.... But ya, its always basically been an issue. Now we face a citation. Just baffles me, why why metal detecting. We fill our holes in, we are not bothering anyone. ....

I have a strong suspicion why it goes from the "no one ever cared" to now. And no, it's not the silly TV shows. No, it's not holes (this is the BEACH afterall, not turf). And no, it's not archies who saw an md'r and said to themselves "oh my, he *might* find an old coin".

Anyone care to beat me to the draw and say why it's now an issue ?
 
Because well-meaning skittish md'rs over the years go into bureaucrats (park rangers, city halls, send letters and emails, etc...) asking the following: "Can we metal detect?" or "Is metal detecting legal here?" and so forth.

People interpret the code of ethics, which tells us to "know and obey all laws", to mean "go ask 'can I detect?' ". And they read of stories of bootings, hassles, etc... further reinforcing to them that they need to ask first "just to be sure" every park or beach or school they go to. And who better to ask, than the entity itself afterall, right? You can't be too safe afterall, right?

But with all these well-meaning people asking "can I?", it's only a matter of time before some pencil pusher gets it in his craw to make a rule to "address this pressing issue". You know, like the "pressing question" gets passed around from desk to desk, one of which will be the state archies desk. Or others will have images of geeks with shovels leaving holes, taking park or beach goodies for personal profit (hence falling afoul of "removing" or "harvesting" type verbage). So the answer eventually comes back to the inquirer's "no".

And this happens in places where, quite frankly .... NO ONE EVER HAD A PROBLEM BEFORE. So it's as if we md'rs can be our own worst enemies. Making ourselves a giant red-x bullseye in need of someone else's princely sanction, when ... truth is ... no one looked twice before, and it was seen as innocuous (which it is). But given enough people asking, the wheels of thought start turning. Heck, the MERE FACT that people even think they need to ask in the FIRST place, merely presumes something is wrong, or dangerous, or evil, or damaging, that you had to ask in the first place! (lest why else would you be asking? Would you have asked to fly a kite?) This subconscious inference is not lost on the persons you're asking, leading them to give the "safe" answer, or pass it through multiple others, etc....

It's the old "no one cared TILL you asked" psychology :(
 
Your probably right. In the last 5-10 years or so the amount of requests has probably surged. And again, your right. There is some one on the other end looking into the ruls an so forth. As it is/was it was basically banned. But, losely enforced. I workded for the department. Before it was named the dcr. I had an old boss that looked the rules up. He had the ability to give permission and did. Provided I filled holes in and stuff. I can only imagine the response to a random inquiry. Its total BS though. There are people paid good money, year round and now they have the power to cite us off the beach. Depressing really. We don't harm anyone, or do anything wrond.

On another note. Last year minelab decided to host an event on a mass DCR beach, and within a 12 month period its being banned. I hate to say it. But I think that event prompted an internal scurry to ban the hobby.

hh an gl -Joe

Tom_in_CA said:
Because well-meaning skittish md'rs over the years go into bureaucrats (park rangers, city halls, send letters and emails, etc...) asking the following: "Can we metal detect?" or "Is metal detecting legal here?" and so forth.

People interpret the code of ethics, which tells us to "know and obey all laws", to mean "go ask 'can I detect?' ". And they read of stories of bootings, hassles, etc... further reinforcing to them that they need to ask first "just to be sure" every park or beach or school they go to. And who better to ask, than the entity itself afterall, right? You can't be too safe afterall, right?

But with all these well-meaning people asking "can I?", it's only a matter of time before some pencil pusher gets it in his craw to make a rule to "address this pressing issue". You know, like the "pressing question" gets passed around from desk to desk, one of which will be the state archies desk. Or others will have images of geeks with shovels leaving holes, taking park or beach goodies for personal profit (hence falling afoul of "removing" or "harvesting" type verbage). So the answer eventually comes back to the inquirer's "no".

And this happens in places where, quite frankly .... NO ONE EVER HAD A PROBLEM BEFORE. So it's as if we md'rs can be our own worst enemies. Making ourselves a giant red-x bullseye in need of someone else's princely sanction, when ... truth is ... no one looked twice before, and it was seen as innocuous (which it is). But given enough people asking, the wheels of thought start turning. Heck, the MERE FACT that people even think they need to ask in the FIRST place, merely presumes something is wrong, or dangerous, or evil, or damaging, that you had to ask in the first place! (lest why else would you be asking? Would you have asked to fly a kite?) This subconscious inference is not lost on the persons you're asking, leading them to give the "safe" answer, or pass it through multiple others, etc....

It's the old "no one cared TILL you asked" psychology :(
 
Glad you concur that this is often the genesis of such rules. The thing that got the matter on their desks anyhow, for them to "approve or dis-approve", when .... truth was .... it had never been a problem.

But we are in the minority. There's no shortage of md'rs who dispute this notion, and think asking at every city hall you come to, is wise, necessary, ethical, polite, etc... So if you see me point that out to the next person coming on with their "can I hunt parks" question, concur that this is not a made-up psychology, and does indeed occur :)
 
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