Sovereign GT Is NOT Deeper In All Metal Or Pinpoint

[Critterhunter]

At least it wasn't for me yesterday, but I'm sure that might change in other types of ground maybe. I was hunting a fresh water beach and I turned the machine to All Metal Track for a while so that it would set that up right, then switched it to fixed so it wouldn't change or smooth over deeper targets. I then hunted in discrimination Iron Mask on at the highest stable sensitivity setting. Once I found a deeper target that sounded at the fringes of discrimination I switched over to All Metal Fixed and found I could not hear the target at all. Surprisingly, though, I did find that I could hear it in PinPoint. This makes absolutely no sense at all since PinPoint isn't using a ground balance and so you would figure that All Metal Fixed would get deeper. However, I also found several deep targets in discrimination that even PinPoint could not hear, so it looks like it isn't as deep as discrimination either.

Now, I'm not saying that the above is going to be true at all locations. With the right ground conditions you might indeed find All Metal or PinPoint goes deeper, but I still would put money on discrimination being deeper than those no matter where you hunt due to the BBS technology only functioning in discrimination. Still, I probably should have not used track to set the ground balance. I should have done it by pumping the coil and then throwing it into fixed. If you balance a machine "hot" in that the threshold just rises a little as the coil approaches the ground you tend to get a little more depth out of a machine. Had I done that with All Metal it might have at least matched discrimination.

All the above is just my first in field testing of the three compared to each other. As I test this more at other locations I'll report what I find. I have a feeling All Metal or PP being deeper is only on some older Sovereigns that were not quite as hot in discrimination mode as the GT.

 

[Southwind]

Not just the BBS technology. Personally I've had one detector out of the many I've owned that was noticeably deeper in all metal than in motion discrimination mode.

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Critterhunter,with the GTs and other Sovereigns I found the Discrimination mode much deeper than the All Metal mode.My opinion reverse discrimination with using the all metal mode may put the operator at a handicap depth wise.The Discrimination mode will pinpoint descent and I have used the pinpoint very little unless of an unusual target circumstance.My older XS is deeper in the discriminate mode.

 

[Critterhunter]

Thanks for the input. Yea, I think the old rule of thumb that All Metal was deeper than discriminate came from back in the day with the machines made up until about the late 80's. Everything I've ever tested All Metal mode on didn't have more depth than discriminate on any of the machines I've owned. I just can't figure out why PP is deeper than All Metal Fixed since it lacks a ground balance. Maybe I didn't have the ground balance set right. I'll have to do more testing in the field to confirm all these things and will report back.

 

[hershey1]

Apparently the Excaliber 2 is different. Gene Edwards posts as many finds as anyone and he hunts in PP and checks his good sounds in Disc. also. As does most in beach hunting videos with Excals.

 

[Neil]

At least it wasn't for me yesterday, but I'm sure that might change in other types of ground maybe. I was hunting a fresh water beach and I turned the machine to All Metal Track for a while so that it would set that up right, then switched it to fixed so it wouldn't change or smooth over deeper targets. I then hunted in discrimination Iron Mask on at the highest stable sensitivity setting. Once I found a deeper target that sounded at the fringes of discrimination I switched over to All Metal Fixed and found I could not hear the target at all. Surprisingly, though, I did find that I could hear it in PinPoint. This makes absolutely no sense at all since PinPoint isn't using a ground balance and so you would figure that All Metal Fixed would get deeper. However, I also found several deep targets in discrimination that even PinPoint could not hear, so it looks like it isn't as deep as discrimination either.

Now, I'm not saying that the above is going to be true at all locations. With the right ground conditions you might indeed find All Metal or PinPoint goes deeper, but I still would put money on discrimination being deeper than those no matter where you hunt due to the BBS technology only functioning in discrimination. Still, I probably should have not used track to set the ground balance. I should have done it by pumping the coil and then throwing it into fixed. If you balance a machine "hot" in that the threshold just rises a little as the coil approaches the ground you tend to get a little more depth out of a machine. Had I done that with All Metal it might have at least matched discrimination.

All the above is just my first in field testing of the three compared to each other. As I test this more at other locations I'll report what I find. I have a feeling All Metal or PP being deeper is only on some older Sovereigns that were not quite as hot in discrimination mode as the GT.

A couple of questions and statements as well: how do you know that both all metal modes are not bbs(pinpoint and track/fix).
The pinpoint all metal mode does adjust(I have no idea how) just like the disc mode does and this can be verified by anyone who hunts a salt water beach where you can go from one type of ground to another in a matter of feet. any other type of detector has to be "adjusted" in some way whether its ground balancing or sens/disc settings and you dont have to with the sov or excal in pinpoint or disc.
next time you try your test like you did try it in tracking mode also and you wanna really open your eyes to the depth of the sov????? hunt in all metal, find the deepest weakest signal you can, then try and locate it in disc. Ive done this and if its deep enough you wont get a threshold change in any way, its like the target isnt there. again, thats here where I hunt(NJ) and I know some swear the disc is deeper but Ive not found that to be true here.
Most of the difference between the Sov GT and the older sovs is the housing and battery, performance is about the same if not the same........its easy to see they just combined all the stuff from the older ones to the gt. The band switch was a new thing from the elite on but thats about it.

 

[Critterhunter]

Disagree about the performance difference of older Sovereigns to the GT. While I haven't owned any of the other units I have read plenty of threads from guys who have and said the GT was a bit deeper and hotter on smaller targets, allowing easier "180" signals without as much of the "climbing number" syndrome that older models would have trouble getting to 180 with on a real deep coin. I'm sure there are "hotter" Elites and such out there that can match a GT in depth or at least come very close to it. That's what I think Minelab did with the GT- they took some "ideas" from that Dixie Detector performance tune up that gave other Sovereigns a little more depth. I wonder if anybody has had this mod done on a GT and found it got yet still more depth? I don't know, as this mod seems very mysterious with very little in the way of info or performance reports from people who have paid the $100 to have it done. It also appears the GT has better shielding compared to at least some older units if you dig up threads on that, allowing higher sensitivity settings. I think I've even heard the XS (?) didn't come with any sheilding, or at least had a production run that didn't. I've read a few old posts where people were trying to install custom shielding themselves to quiet them down. I always thought they just were missing it because of prior mods but too many posts for that to happen.

How do I know all metal and pinpoint are not using BBS? I just assume that's the case since the manual states that the GT only needs a ground balance in All Metal, while it says PinPoint is an all metal mode with the ground balance disabled. BBS technology is able to ignore the ground signal because of it's multi frequency processing without needing to filter it like a normal VLF machine (which needs to be ground balanced so that it can filter the ground signal). I would think that if All Metal or PinPoint is using "BBS" multifrequency technology Minelab would make it a point to hype that function as well, and also that there would be no need for a ground balance. PinPoint may in fact be able to adjust it's self in some way automaticly when switched over, but I bet it's a very vague and general automatic ground setting that sets it way into the "hot" side of things so that it will sound off to the slightest change in ground signal. That may be why PP seems deeper in my initial tests than Fixed All Metal. Had I set All Metal to a hotter setting it might have matched it, and I'm still not sure if PP would be deeper than All Metal in most situations.

Which all brings up another interesting question. If All Metal is not using multi frequency, or at least not in the same sense as discriminate, then I wonder just what kind of frequency(s) All Metal is putting into the ground? I'm going to guess it's only putting out one frequency based on all the above but that's way over reaching with speculation on my part. I have never heard this covered anywhere. Anybody have a link?

 

[hershey1]

This is usually the way I start out hunting at any beach with MY Excal.II DISC. 4 SENS. II oclock PP on. DO NOT HAVE TO GB. Set threshold to barely audible where it does'nt change unless the coil crosses a target. If the target sounds good or if barely audible I click PP knob to DISC. If no sound in DISC I will remove a few inches of sand then if still no sound it is usually iron and I'll move on. I will adjust the SENS. to 1 oclock and DISC. down to 1 but usually I don't have to make many adjustments. This works for me and my machine on the east coast west coast and the gulf and in the Bahamas. And I have been blessed. I should be on the Panhandle in a few weeks. Like I say this is what works for me and my machine. HH

 

[chuck ky]

if all-metal is not bbs, wouldn't minelab be able to tell us what frequency it does operate at. i think my minelab is the xs-a and i've never used it in all-metal but i did use the all-metal for pinpointing. thanks.

 

[Neil]

Disagree about the performance difference of older Sovereigns to the GT. While I haven't owned any of the other units I have read plenty of threads from guys who have and said the GT was a bit deeper and hotter on smaller targets, allowing easier "180" signals without as much of the "climbing number" syndrome that older models would have trouble getting to 180 with on a real deep coin. I'm sure there are "hotter" Elites and such out there that can match a GT in depth or at least come very close to it. That's what I think Minelab did with the GT- they took some "ideas" from that Dixie Detector performance tune up that gave other Sovereigns a little more depth. I wonder if anybody has had this mod done on a GT and found it got yet still more depth? I don't know, as this mod seems very mysterious with very little in the way of info or performance reports from people who have paid the $100 to have it done. It also appears the GT has better shielding compared to at least some older units if you dig up threads on that, allowing higher sensitivity settings. I think I've even heard the XS (?) didn't come with any sheilding, or at least had a production run that didn't. I've read a few old posts where people were trying to install custom shielding themselves to quiet them down. I always thought they just were missing it because of prior mods but too many posts for that to happen.

How do I know all metal and pinpoint are not using BBS? I just assume that's the case since the manual states that the GT only needs a ground balance in All Metal, while it says PinPoint is an all metal mode with the ground balance disabled. BBS technology is able to ignore the ground signal because of it's multi frequency processing without needing to filter it like a normal VLF machine (which needs to be ground balanced so that it can filter the ground signal). I would think that if All Metal or PinPoint is using "BBS" multifrequency technology Minelab would make it a point to hype that function as well, and also that there would be no need for a ground balance. PinPoint may in fact be able to adjust it's self in some way automaticly when switched over, but I bet it's a very vague and general automatic ground setting that sets it way into the "hot" side of things so that it will sound off to the slightest change in ground signal. That may be why PP seems deeper in my initial tests than Fixed All Metal. Had I set All Metal to a hotter setting it might have matched it, and I'm still not sure if PP would be deeper than All Metal in most situations.

Which all brings up another interesting question. If All Metal is not using multi frequency, or at least not in the same sense as discriminate, then I wonder just what kind of frequency(s) All Metal is putting into the ground? I'm going to guess it's only putting out one frequency based on all the above but that's way over reaching with speculation on my part. I have never heard this covered anywhere. Anybody have a link?

I looked inside a gt box and its got the same shielding as the older units which started back with the XS. Reading threads is good fun but unless you know the person your winging it at best unless its something youve already found out yourself. thats how you can tell if another persons post is bull or not, by comparing it to what youve found out yourself. just because 10 posts say the same thing dont make it a fact.
you lost me on your explanation of why the pinpoint all metal isnt bbs, by what your saying that would include disc also wouldnt it, since you dont gb disc?
next time I call minelab I will ask them.
the dixie mod? I had that on one of my sovs, I must have got a dud as it didnt do anything special that I saw. I didnt pay to get it done, I bought one from a forum member.

 

[Critterhunter]

I figured we should go right to the source for the Excalibur and Sovereign, that being the manuals. I dug up some info out of them to reference. First, from the GT's manual...

When operating in Disc mode, the Sovereign GT uses digital filtering to compensate for ground effects and the Track / Fix / Pinpoint function is disabled.

When operating in All Metals, Minelab

 

[Critterhunter]

I looked inside a gt box and its got the same shielding as the older units which started back with the XS. Reading threads is good fun but unless you know the person your winging it at best unless its something you've already found out yourself..

Agreed, and that's why I can tell you that I've had no less than two people PM me about installing shielding in their older Sovereign models which never came with it. A third person said he had shielding but it wasn't grounded and wanted to know how to go about doing that. All the above combined with the numerous old threads I've ran across (when searching for other things) that involved people installing or grounding the shielding on one particular older model seems way too common to just be by chance, but that's me. I think at least a certain production run of these machines didn't have any shielding, and still yet others were not grounded. That is, unless somebody has a shielding fetish and has been very busy collecting tropheys.

thats how you can tell if another persons post is bull or not, by comparing it to what youve found out yourself. just because 10 posts say the same thing dont make it a fact..

And that's exactly why I'm testing this PP or All Metal being deeper than Discrimination stuff. So far what I've heard others say, at least on the GT, is "bull". Perhaps it's true on certain older Sovereigns or certain runs of the Excaliburs, or maybe even it's specific to certain grounds, but I've seen no personal evidence to support that. Howeveer, I'm also not going to jump to conclusions and assume that what others are saying is "bull", even if turn about is fair play. I'm not going to pre-judge others myself, and I'd appreciate it if I'm offered the same favor here in kind. I've still got my friend's Excalibur that I repaired so I think I'll do some tests on it's PP/Disc and see just what pans out.

you lost me on your explanation of why the pinpoint all metal isnt bbs, by what your saying that would include disc also wouldnt it, since you dont gb disc?

The BBS multi-frequency and it's processing doesn't need a ground balance because it "ignores" it in it's own way. The way I understand it VLF machines ground balance in order to filter the ground signal, needing then any target to "rise above" the constant filter it has going to block out the ground. BBS/FBS machines from what I've read don't filter the ground signal, but rather take a constant picture of it with no target present and then compare that to a ground signal where a target exists. By looking at the two signals side by side the target doesn't have to overcome or break through a filter which may degrade target signal, or at the very least wash it down the conductivity scale along with the mineral or iron content that it's drowning in with the filter. That's why they cut through the minerals and offer better depth and ID.

This is a bit out of my league but so far as I know there are different "older" versions of both disc and All Metal that didn't require motion, or at least require a ground balance. That sounds more to me like what the Excalibur may be using but again pure speculation on my part. It could explain why PP gets deeper than Discrimination for some...on some models...in some grounds, but I'll do a bit of my own further testing with the Excalibur and GT to draw my own conclusions...at least for me in my soil on those specific detectors. I do remember that certain versions of these disc or all metal modes were abandoned due to less discrimination ability or eratic (sounds like the PP!) operation over minerals. Somebody else can correct me or fill in the blanks from here on that.

 

[Critterhunter]

Just so happens there is a thread in the Metal Detecting forum going on right now about certain Sovereigns not having a sheild from the factory...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?18,1171545

 

[midalake]

I want to add to this deeper in all metal pp or disc. I have lots of experience with detecting in Mexico. Which means different coin composition. The Mexican 1,2 and 5 peso coin are ferrous, they stick to a magnet. What is interesting about this coin is it also has a stainless ring around them. The GT will not give a positive signal on these in Disc. at all. What is even more interesting is it also hates these coins in All metal PP. I can find American dimes twice as deep as the 5 peso Mexican coin. My guess there is 5 to 6 times more metal and the size of the coin is larger than our quarter. Now if this was a true all metal pp, why would this happen??? Does not matter the machine or coil I have run the XS2a, Elite, GT and up to the sunray 12 inch coil. My point being your findings may be skewed by many factors.

Dave

 

[Critterhunter]

Wow, even in PP or All Metal it doesn't pick them up well? That complicates things...

 

[Neil]

I want to add to this deeper in all metal pp or disc. I have lots of experience with detecting in Mexico. Which means different coin composition. The Mexican 1,2 and 5 peso coin are ferrous, they stick to a magnet. What is interesting about this coin is it also has a stainless ring around them. The GT will not give a positive signal on these in Disc. at all. What is even more interesting is it also hates these coins in All metal PP. I can find American dimes twice as deep as the 5 peso Mexican coin. My guess there is 5 to 6 times more metal and the size of the coin is larger than our quarter. Now if this was a true all metal pp, why would this happen??? Does not matter the machine or coil I have run the XS2a, Elite, GT and up to the sunray 12 inch coil. My point being your findings may be skewed by many factors.

Dave

Dave do you have Clive Clynicks books? his explanation on this, if I am understanding you correctly, is that higher conductive metals will carry further, that the ferrous metals or whatever is in the mexican coins might actually (at depth) be read by the sov as part of the ground and ignored.
do I understand you correctly in that these coins can be picked up in all metal pinpoint, just not at equal distances from our coins?
all metal is a term used reguarly by most of the manufacturers, but even if you were to try a tesoro in all metal it will have some bias against iron.
now Ive had and used a few pulse machines, the ones I used were truly all metal

 

[midalake]

yes, the 1,2 and 5 peso coins do not get detected well with the GT even in all metal. Just making a point that certain targets may not show up well for many reasons. Now add some black sand to the mix, and I have heard the best targets come back with tones I never hear. For me down here hunting in disc. only is not an option I feel. Due to the fact I would be missing around 80% of the coins I find. I have at times tried to hunt in Disc. when I think conditions are right to find rings, but the truth is I am better off in all metal due to the lack of time spent working in Disc. I also find switching back and forth to identify and dig takes just too much time.

Dave

 

[Critterhunter]

I did some testing with the Excalibur 800 with 8" BBS coil. I had fixed a few things on it for a friend so it was still sitting around my house waiting for him to pick up. While I'm on the topic, maybe somebody can help me with some information on it. I unscrewed the connector where it plugs into the battery and cleaned up all that and then put some dialectric (sp?) grease on the threads/gasket/and battery plug contacts to help keep it sealed and also to prevent any carbon build up on the battery leads.

There is a little rubber gasket that seats down over the contacts. I removed this and cleaned it up/greased it on both sides to keep the rubber from drying out and for a better seal. Diaelectric grease won't break down rubber and is meant for things like spark plug boots to keep things from getting brittle or building up carbon. Anyway, this seal looks like it's seen better days in that the little dimples where the connectors poke through are flattened on one side. I told my friend I wouldn't trust it anymore. Does anybody know how much these seals costs and where you can get one? Also, is this the only place this connector seals or is the top of the screw on battery connector supposed to have a rubber gasket or boot of some sort there as well? It seems like the screw on connector's side where the cable comes in would not be waterproof but I'm not sure.

I also used a wrench to make sure all the other cable connectors were tight and found the headphone one a bit loose. Fixed the loose dials by popping the caps and tightening down the nuts on top. His coil was cracked at the seams in various spots since he doesn't use a coil cover so I plugged those with Shoe Goo and then gave the coil about 8 coats of Rustoleum spray on bed liner to prevent future wear and make sure things were sealed well.

On to the testing- I only did some air testing in my back yard and found that PP does not seem to be as deep as discriminate. The other interesting thing I found is that the 800's pinpoint does not seem to be an all metal non-motion mode as the Excalibur II's manual states. You have to keep the coil moving otherwise the sound in PP will go away. It seems much like PP on my GT. For that reason, I wonder if PP on the II is a different PP mode using non-motion like the manual for that unit states? If so, then perhaps PP on the II is deeper for some being different. I'm anxious to hear if any 800 owners find PP deeper than discriminate or if it's all about the II?

One more thing, is anybody using an aftermarket shaft for the Excalibur? It seems this thing is a prime candidate for a straight shaft and a grip with the control box placed well up behind the elbow to help balance it.

 

[muggsc]

I'm using a Pl__ger (Not sure if he's a sponsor) shaft on mine. Bought on ebay. What an amazing difference. Quality is excellent also.
Cal

 

[Critterhunter]

Once again the other day I checked targets that I found deep in discriminate with PP to see if it would see them but it wouldn't. I'm fairly well convinced now that the GT is much deeper in discriminate than it is in PP. In fact, several deep targets I had to pinpoint in discriminate because PP could not detect them at all. Still playing with All Metal Fixed to see how it compares to Discriminate and will report more on that later.