Sov GT GB

[jspoon]

I read a post on another board complaining that the manual is missleading because it doesn't tell you that fixed setting will only work in all metal mode whereas this user says that is the case, true? I GB in AM , track, threshold then switch to disc, PP, silent search. The manual doesn't say wether you can use fixed or track in disc mode, it suggests PP because PP is dissabled in disc mode until you switch to AM..crazy man. Can I use track or fix in any mode? BTW the ground was soft enough to dig at the park today and I found bottle caps and ptabs, got home and practiced notching those suckers out, my hearings not the greatest.

Thanks J

 

[BHNugget]

I believe the ground balance switch is disabled in disc mode

 

[JimmyCT]

I'll add to BHnugget's post.


Jspoon
fixed or track works in All-metal only. Read Page 22-23, 26-27, in the manual. If you are hunting in DISC the Sov GT uses digital filtering and no ground balancing is neccessary. GB is only neccessary in all-metal. Hope this helps - Jim



http://www.minelab.com/__files/f/4062/4901-0051-1.1%20Inst%20Manual%20Sovereign%20GT%20website.pdf

 

[Critterhunter]

The very nature of BBS means that it doesn'tt need or require a ground balance. BBS in discrimination mode (either Iron Mask On or OFF modes...Most use ON for max depth and better ability to sound off to non-ferrous items in a mixed ferrous signal) uses a unique way to ignore or compensate for the ground signal, and it's not "auto ground tracking" on some other machines, because that can cost you depth on deep targets. It also isn't a fixed form of a ground balance set at a factory, which also is a huge compromise in depth and stability. It's also not a form of manual ground balance.

Instead, it's unique to Minelabs and I believe Minelab says it uses some form of digital filtering to ignore the ground signal and see through it. I've heard it also put this way by some- that it takes a picture of the ground signal with and without a target present, and then compares them both for comparison. This is the reason why Minelabs get such great depth and ID at depth compared to other machines, and in the worst of grounds that would cause major stability, depth, or ID at depth issues otherwise with a "conventional" form of manual balance.

Pin point mode is a form of all metal that does not feature a ground balance. Minelab says that, or at least has in some of the manuals I've skimmed over for the BBS units. But some say PP will get PI-like depth and cut through even worse minerals than the legendary BBS discrimination mode can handle, which is saying a lot.

Now we get to the two all metal models on the GT...All metal fixed and all metal track. First thing to do is to set it in tracking mode, by either pumping the coil in a clean spot or sweeping around for a few minutes (I prefer the pump method in a clean spot, as targets can alter things as you let it calibrate when sweeping).

You can either just hunt in tracking mode (and thus no need to pump the coil since it's constantly tracking then), or once set in track you can flip to Fixed mode. If the ground isn't changing rapidly, such as moving in and out of wet and dry sand, or hunting disturbed or moved or obviously by eye changing ground, then the best depth will be had by flipping over to Fixed.

Only use tracking when Fixed keeps having issues due to changing ground conditions as you hunt. In that case tracking will get more depth, since Fixed might be out of tune for the next patch of ground you are walking over.

Rarely though will I use Tracking mode, because I prefer to re-balance once I get to the obvious change in ground conditions, to insure max depth. Tracking can track out a deep hit with repeated sweeps, and even not risking that isn't quiet as "hot" as Fixed when set properly.

Many on many different machines featuring a fixed (meaning manual) ground balance will pump the coil and set it slightly hot, which usually means the threshold increases just a hair as you approach the ground with the coil. Pump the coil up and down only to the height you hunt at and don't kiss the ground unless you hunt that way, because setting it at a different level of actual hunting position will alter the ground load.

I've played with a machine or two that sets it's manual balance by making the threshold go silent when set right. I don't care for that at all, because now I can't listen for a slightly increasing threshold as I approach the ground to set it slightly hot for max depth. Too hot though and you risk instability and will actually get less depth.

And, you have to be careful, because many machines feature a SAT (self adjusting threshold). With those, you may hear the threshold get louder for a split second and then mellow out, which might make you think it's set right. But in reality it's only the SAT returning the threshold to the proper level. That's why you have to pay attention to it as you approach or leave the ground to judge things, and not what it does a second or two later.

What I want to know, is that if you set the ground balance and then flip back to disc (which doesn't use the manual ground balance), when you flip back to all metal fixed, does it still use the same ground balance you set it at before, or has it defaulted to some factory setting and needs to be set again?

Reason being I've wired a remote PP switch on my GT, and can use it to flip between disc and PP or disc and one of the two all metal modes (based on how I have the stock switches set on my GT). I guess if it loses the ground balance setting by flipping back to disc and then back to all metal fixed again, I could just keep it in Tracking mode when I want to flip back and fourth to them.

I have been meaning to test that- By setting it in Tracking and then flipping to Fixed in some really bad ground, and then go to disc and then back to Fixed again. I would guess if it doesn't hold the last setting then I might see some instability issues in the right situation that would tell me the answer. Or, I could maybe flip from disc back to Fixed and then to Tracking and see if the balance is close when I start pumping the coil right away before track has any time to adjust it's self. Wish Minelab would clarify this question.

I mainly use my remote PP to flip back and fourth between that and disc though, so I'm not too concerned about All Metal mode until I get around to playing with that more. Just here and there I've used it, but the depth of PP mode and some of it's unique traits is blowing me away as it is to play with.

I have seen some say that the Excalibur is fixed in "salt mode". I've also seen some say that setting the ground balance on the Sovereign works better for PP mode. It would seem to me that there is no evidence to support either of these things unless I'm missing some big news from Minelab. Some machines, using conventional ground balances, have a "salt mode" switch you throw, which kicks the ground balancing adjustment window way out of wack so you can balance it in those conditions. With the unique way BBS ignores the ground signal, there shouldn't be any need for a "salt setting". It handles things in a very different way than a conventional ground filter. And far as balancing for PP mode goes, if that was true then I wouldn't think Minelab would say it's a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance.

 

[Critterhunter]

Great info EarthlyPotLuck, now can you dig up the part where they say PP mode is a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance. Not sure if I saw that in the GT manual, one of the older models, or in the Excalibur manual.

 

[JimmyCT]

didn't see it in the GT manual. Then again I am tired and half asleep. So with that statement I am turning in.

Great info EarthlyPotLuck, now can you dig up the part where they say PP mode is a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance. Not sure if I saw that in the GT manual, one of the older models, or in the Excalibur manual.

 

[jspoon]

I'll add to BHnugget's post.


Jspoon
fixed or track works in All-metal only. Read Page 22-23, 26-27, in the manual. If you are hunting in DISC the Sov GT uses digital filtering and no ground balancing is neccessary. GB is only neccessary in all-metal. Hope this helps - Jim



http://www.minelab.com/__files/f/4062/4901-0051-1.1%20Inst%20Manual%20Sovereign%20GT%20website.pdf

 

[jspoon]

Jim thank you for the pdf, my manual on page 22 does not have that info you highlighted, same with the other page as well, ah the mystery to keep the sovereign a mystery!
Much apreciated HH

 

[jspoon]

Me again, I just noticed when I open that URL for the manual yoiu sent, that's the one I have, what manual did you get that info. you highlighted from?
Thx again

 

[jspoon]

Never mind I screwed up, pg 16 has the info you highlighted, I was on pg 22...someday I'll figure out the out to properly reply with quote, gimme a break I've only been online since 1995
HH John

 

[Critterhunter]

didn't see it in the GT manual. Then again I am tired and half asleep. So with that statement I am turning in.

Great info EarthlyPotLuck, now can you dig up the part where they say PP mode is a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance. Not sure if I saw that in the GT manual, one of the older models, or in the Excalibur manual.

Found it, page 13 of 19 in the GT manual...

"Note: You should not search in Pinpoint as the ground balance is disabled and the detector can become erratic."

Never have found PP eratic though myself. It's smooth as warm butter and punches through bad minerals with ease. As OBN says too on the Excalibur, which I find to be true as well on my GT, in PP you can swing rather fast and as well with it to cover a large beach faster, though I find I can swing pretty fast with the 12x10 in disc too (about medium Whites speed) and in fact often find it gives me more depth that way when I test a long sweep at different speeds over a deep target. When I crawl in disc over some deep fringe stuff it simply vanishes for me in most of my mineralized soils or sands. Maybe it's the coil? Maybe it's the GT? Maybe it's my minerals? Maybe it's a combination of all 3?

 

[Neil]

1. the two forms of all metal on the Sov GT are not tracking and fixed, those are working off the same all metal mode, similiar to that found on the minelab eureka. you get a user select on that all metal mode in that you can either let the machine track or you can select a set position(fixed). same all metal mode though. this mode also more closely resembles the disc mode in that it has a broad response(not the tones).
the pinpoint mode is the second all metal mode and it adjusts to the ground like the disc mode does, the user does nothing and cannot adjust it.

you wanna see how they are different? select pinpoint mode in all metal, then venture from the dry sand at the ocean to the waters edge and see how the threshold remains stable and the detector acts like no ground change has occured.
now to compare, in the dry sand, set the sov to all metal tracking, hunt a bit, then select fixed and try the same thing, venture down to the waters edge. it will not be as smooth as pinpoint was, its not adjusting to the ground.

in disc, the sov will adjust just like in pinpoint all metal mode, as one of the other posters stated, the ground balance is disabled.

minelab did not do a very good job explaining this in the manual and it confuses alot of people. Forturnately experimenting with different settings while hunting cures knowing what does what and what works best for you in your area.

 

[Critterhunter]

Now we get to the two all metal modes on the GT...All metal fixed and all metal track.

1. the two forms of all metal on the Sov GT are not tracking and fixed, those are working off the same all metal mode, similiar to that found on the minelab eureka.

Neil, if that was directed at me (?), fact remains there are two all metal modes on the switch- track or fixed. It's just a matter of semantics as to that meaning two modes of all metal, or one, or three counting pin point mode. Same deal, different wording. Call it switch functions, or settings, or what have you. One tracks. One does not. No different then those two modes on other machines I've owned. Example- 6000 Pro XL or QXT Pro. Two modes. Tracking or Fixed. Same All Metal mode in either setting. Not saying otherwise, that they are different in nature other than the form of ground balance being used. Just like Iron Mask On or OFF. Both disc, but with different switch positions, which to my terminology are two different modes.

But in terms of PP mode, let's review the quote from Minelab again here...

"Note: You should not search in Pinpoint [size=x-large]as[/size] the ground balance is disabled and the detector can become erratic."

That's in the GT manual, and I've heard it said elsewhere as well...that it's a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance. If Minelab means it uses the disc mode's ability to ignore the ground, then why the need to mention that it shouldn't be used as the detector can become erratic?

There are forms of all metal that feature no ground balance if memory serves, on at least some old machines. I think (it's been a while, but not on an "old" machine per say) that the 6000 Pro XL even has such a mode? Not sure about that, as it's been a while since I owned #2 6000 Pro XL and never ventured much out of the regular disc mode, but I'm pretty sure I've seen all metal modes on detectors of yester-year that didn't feature a ground balance. And I'm not talking because it was factory set, but because it simply didn't use one.

If I remember right, one of the disadvantages of those forms of all metal is that they had instability issues in some soils, but on the other hand I think they were said to have some unique traits too that an all metal mode featuring a ground balance didn't have. I think perhaps one of the things that gives PP mode it's unique abilities is it's constant "tight" tuning of the target response and it's more limited tunnel vision scope in what it sees as it scans the ground. Much like fastly adjusting SAT to compensate for the ground response. The auto adjusting for zeroing in on a target might have some very good unintended side benefits.

I remember one experienced water hunter remarking about this trait- thinking that PP was more "focused" and taking in less ground stew as it scanned deep, and it being one of the reasons he thought might be responsible for his findings that it held it's own against numerous PI units he owned in bad sands, by ignoring surrounding ground conditions with more of a tunnel vision type action. If he's right, that would explain why PP will see a non-ferrous target much deeper than disc will. I'll see if I can dig that up for a re-post on another day, as I'm off to bed for now...

Final thought- If Minelab does indeed use discrimination's unique abilities to ignore the ground in PP, then they've made one glaring error in product manuals that I would think would be a major selling point they would have wanted to fix and highlight. Regardless of how PP does it's magic though, there is no doubt it does have some unique abilities, so the wheres and whys of how probably aren't all that important in how it gets the job done. I just don't see why they'd said what they do in the manual, when it would seem that has a very different meaning then it using disc's ability to ignore the ground. Perhaps it's an error, but man what a major one...

 

[Rick(ND)]

This is the way I have always understood the Sovereign as there was no ground balance of any kind on the older Sovereign as the disc and all metal ran off the same circuitry and with the pinpoint mode made the signal smaller with no tones-and seem to be more all metal mode.. When the GT was made the second all metal that has ground balance was added for those that prospect, the trac and the fixed all metal which is the same all metal other than once it ground balance in trac which takes a while to do then you can lock that setting by switching it to fixed. The 2 all metal modes are pinpoint and trac/fixed, pinpoint works off the disc circuitry and the trac/fixed is the second all metal mode.
I know if you leave my wife's MXT in trac and you go over a signal enough time it will trac the signal out, so we have to get a signal and then lock it before it tracs that target and feel the GT does the same thing.

I guess that being some of us that have used the Sovereigns for years in actual hunting conditions to learn them and been very successful in our hunts should qualify us to know what we are talking about most of the time(no one is perfect) .Got to take some of these post with a grain of salt that are armchair detectorist and get their info from others that have posted that didn't have the patience to learn Sovereign and sold them.

Rick

 

[deepdiger60]

Good analyses Neil and BH in the 4 years i been using my GT i think i GL 2 times as far as iam concerned just turn the machine on and hunt because i never once noticed the difference in how it operates in AM or Disc. if it is ground balanced or not and i hunt every kind of ground there is , just go hunt learn the sounds and stop making using this machine a science project it just confuses the hell out of newer people and they give up plus reading that useless manual from Minelab is a total waist of time . I must be doing something right in 4 years 218 LC,s and that is just from farm fields and never once did a ground balance and i use AM to hunt if need be ill switch over to Disc to check a target that might be iffy , putting it in track or fix makes no differance to me . Good luck out there Jim

 

[JimmyCT]

Hi John,
you are welcome. Best of luck to you in the field. - Jim

Never mind I screwed up, pg 16 has the info you highlighted, I was on pg 22...someday I'll figure out the out to properly reply with quote, gimme a break I've only been online since 1995
HH John

 

[Neil]

Now we get to the two all metal modes on the GT...All metal fixed and all metal track.

1. the two forms of all metal on the Sov GT are not tracking and fixed, those are working off the same all metal mode, similiar to that found on the minelab eureka.

Neil, if that was directed at me (?), fact remains there are two all metal modes on the switch- track or fixed. It's just a matter of semantics as to that meaning two modes of all metal, or one, or three counting pin point mode. Same deal, different wording. Call it switch functions, or settings, or what have you. One tracks. One does not. No different then those two modes on other machines I've owned. Example- 6000 Pro XL or QXT Pro. Two modes. Tracking or Fixed. Same All Metal mode in either setting. Not saying otherwise, that they are different in nature other than the form of ground balance being used. Just like Iron Mask On or OFF. Both disc, but with different switch positions, which to my terminology are two different modes.

But in terms of PP mode, let's review the quote from Minelab again here...

"Note: You should not search in Pinpoint [size=x-large]as[/size] the ground balance is disabled and the detector can become erratic."

That's in the GT manual, and I've heard it said elsewhere as well...that it's a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance. If Minelab means it uses the disc mode's ability to ignore the ground, then why the need to mention that it shouldn't be used as the detector can become erratic?

There are forms of all metal that feature no ground balance if memory serves, on at least some old machines. I think (it's been a while, but not on an "old" machine per say) that the 6000 Pro XL even has such a mode? Not sure about that, as it's been a while since I owned #2 6000 Pro XL and never ventured much out of the regular disc mode, but I'm pretty sure I've seen all metal modes on detectors of yester-year that didn't feature a ground balance. And I'm not talking because it was factory set, but because it simply didn't use one.

If I remember right, one of the disadvantages of those forms of all metal is that they had instability issues in some soils, but on the other hand I think they were said to have some unique traits too that an all metal mode featuring a ground balance didn't have. I think perhaps one of the things that gives PP mode it's unique abilities is it's constant "tight" tuning of the target response and it's more limited tunnel vision scope in what it sees as it scans the ground. Much like fastly adjusting SAT to compensate for the ground response. The auto adjusting for zeroing in on a target might have some very good unintended side benefits.

I remember one experienced water hunter remarking about this trait- thinking that PP was more "focused" and taking in less ground stew as it scanned deep, and it being one of the reasons he thought might be responsible for his findings that it held it's own against numerous PI units he owned in bad sands, by ignoring surrounding ground conditions with more of a tunnel vision type action. If he's right, that would explain why PP will see a non-ferrous target much deeper than disc will. I'll see if I can dig that up for a re-post on another day, as I'm off to bed for now...

Final thought- If Minelab does indeed use discrimination's unique abilities to ignore the ground in PP, then they've made one glaring error in product manuals that I would think would be a major selling point they would have wanted to fix and highlight. Regardless of how PP does it's magic though, there is no doubt it does have some unique abilities, so the wheres and whys of how probably aren't all that important in how it gets the job done. I just don't see why they'd said what they do in the manual, when it would seem that has a very different meaning then it using disc's ability to ignore the ground. Perhaps it's an error, but man what a major one...

No critter that is not what I was saying and its not semantics, its you not knowing what your talking about again. Your lack of experience is showing again.

Have a look at the Sov Elite, its has a disc mode and an all metal mode. two operating modes.

Have a look at the Sov GT. it has a disc mode, and TWO all metal modes, one being the pinpoint mode brought forward from all the prior Sovs and one being the all metal mode(utilizing a user adjustable ground balance) that is from minelabs vlf gold machines. Anyone who really has used both can see they are clearly different. And anyone who has hunted in the pinpoint mode can clearly see it adjusts to the ground the same way the disc mode does.
For a detector to go from one type of soil to another, some form of adjustment is necessary to maintain full depth and smooth operation. Minelab says digital filtering, you say no, not in all metal. Minelab doesnt address it but you somehow disagree that it doesnt which really shows youve not used it.

Your reading other peoples posts, using some of their info as your own(which really isnt right is it?) and using that as your experience. You have no idea if what they are saying is true unless you can attest to it through your own knowledge/experience. Without that, its usless words, meaningless.
Nothing can replace the actual hunt and I always would urge someone to hunt instead of test test test test........like you love to do.
Actual detecting is where the real learning comes from, its harder and takes more time, but its yours forever and your learning is not at the mercy of someone just passing on something they read somewhere else.

If you choose to reply to this critter, at least go out and flip a few toggles and see what Im talking about first.

 

[Neil]

Good analyses Neil and BH in the 4 years i been using my GT i think i GL 2 times as far as iam concerned just turn the machine on and hunt because i never once noticed the difference in how it operates in AM or Disc. if it is ground balanced or not and i hunt every kind of ground there is , just go hunt learn the sounds and stop making using this machine a science project it just confuses the hell out of newer people and they give up plus reading that useless manual from Minelab is a total waist of time . I must be doing something right in 4 years 218 LC,s and that is just from farm fields and never once did a ground balance and i use AM to hunt if need be ill switch over to Disc to check a target that might be iffy , putting it in track or fix makes no differance to me . Good luck out there Jim

thanks Rick and Jim,

You got it right, stop making the sov a science project and Ricks point about armchair detecting........more time hunting and enjoying and the learning will come, the real learning that is. Enough of the reading and reposting over and over and the lenghty posts that are as confusing as hell and dont amount to anything in the end anyways. You still have to go out and dig.

 

[Tin Fin]

Neil,

Your explanation made the most sense to me - beside the "use it a lot" - I haven't hunted salt water areas, so I can't say I have ever done the experiment you describe. But I think I see the difference based on your explanation. I've had my GT just about 1 year now - love the thing; but couldn't have explained what you did. And you are right, Minelabs explanation was more confusing than it needed to be. Thank you!

 

[Critterhunter]

Well Neil, Rick, and a few others who always seem to try to excuse my questioning, differing theories or opinions, or exploring ideas, and excuse it as "inexperience"...Big news, direct from a Email I got from Minelab concerning PP.

But first, let's get this little point of contention out of the way first...

Now we get to the two all metal modes on the GT...All metal fixed and all metal track. First thing to do is to set it in tracking mode, by either pumping the coil in a clean spot or sweeping around for a few minutes (I prefer the pump method in a clean spot, as targets can alter things as you let it calibrate when sweeping).

Neil, it's no secret you and one particular other in this forum seem to have always had something against me for a long time, but it's needless to try to take that to extremes. Right there above is my quote from my message. You know exactly what I meant by that. Never said they were two different forms of all metal, just two different modes. Thus the sentence..."Now we get to the two all metal modes on the GT- All metal fixed and all metal track". I'm not going to stand down and let it be implied that I said otherwise, and I really don't see the point in playing a game of semantics here to try to imply I said otherwise.. To me two different switch positions are two different modes, and that's exactly what I meant. Just like two different disc switch modes- iron mask on or off. Not going to be silent and let otherwise be implied that I was somehow saying they were somehow two vastly different forms of all metal in nature. It's obvious what I was saying. Two different modes. Simple as that.

But on to much more important matters...

So shot out an email, and direct from Minelab you'll find it below. Read on...

---

Dear Sir,

The Sovereign has two methods of Ground balance.

Automatic Ground Compensation