Somebody Shot Me A PM About Building Custom Shafts. Thought It Might Be Helpful To Others Thinking Of Doing That...

[Critterhunter]

I removed his name for privacy since this was asked in a PM...

Critterhunter,

Think I'll go with the White's Carbon Tall Man lower rod for weight savings. Is this the correct product # 500-0242-3?? Wait I think Kellyco has the same thing for less. Is it recommended to also get the washer kit Kellyco sells?

Thanks

It's the LOWER carbon fiber rod and not the middle one. Don't know if that's the part # you got. White's own website had them for only $10 when I bought two for ease in coil swapping, and even though they are twice as long as the Minelab lower shaft they are MUCH lighter being they are carbon and not the over kill heavy fiberglass Minelab used.

The coil mount isn't as wide as a Minelab so you can either buy four of the Whites (two for each side of the coil mount) to make up the gap, or for way cheaper head up to a home improvement store and get a pack of rubber or silicon faucet washers. Just bring the shaft up there though to see what size sits down in the whites mount because they make different sizes. You have to drill out the hole in the center of the washers. I glued them in pairs for ease in putting them around the mount while fussing with running the bolt through. I used the Minelab size nylon bolts still so I didn't have to drill out the coils for the bigger whites bolt, but don't worry it won't make it sloppy.

The added perk is now those two pairs of washers act like a shock absorber if you bump into a tree real hard or something it'll keep the coil and shaft from being jolted real bad. I like that.

You can now cut the upper Minelab shaft much shorter for added weight savings since the Whites tall man rod is probably twice as long as that heavier lower Minelab fiberglass shaft, but if you've come this far might as well ditch the heavy gauge upper Minelab shaft and use a lighter gauge aluminum for further weight savings.

I used the inner aluminum pole from an Unger extending window cleaning pole that you can find at home improvement stores. The Etore ones will work too but I think they use a heavier gauge aluminum. Both are professional grade poles designed to support a heavy soaked window cleaning mop head at extended heights so they can surely withstand use on a detector at a much shorter length. I think that poll is like 5 foot in length or so but it will extend another 5 foot. The inner pole is a much lighter gauge aluminum than the upper Minelab shaft. And now you can cut it down in length too with the Whites tall man rod and save a bunch more weight that way too.

I dropped a good 1.5 pounds about by building my own shaft, and while I was at it I ditched that stock grip and used a bike end bar. Much lighter and more comfortable, and you can pick a real comfortable rubber or gel grip cover to put over it. Just hacksaw the end bar down to the length you want, and don't worry about the slight bend in it. I find it makes for a more natural grip by using the one that bends slightly left as being I'm right handed. I'm using end bars on both my light weight land shaft and the stock GT shaft that I use for my water rig.

More details in a thread a link can be found for in the Sovereign accesseries sticky about building a light weight shaft. Lots of info from start to finish in that thread such as how to mock up your box clip using the a Whites arm cup and such, as the Whites arm cup is very light where as the Minelab weighs over half a pound!

 

[deepdiger60]

My winter project is to build a 1 piece carbon fiber 48" x1" shaft by Dragonplate for my Sov GT , no drilled holes the material is super hard but lite as a feather 2/3 less then the stock shafts the bend from the coils will be hardly noticeable , on it all new accessories hand grip,arm rest and coil mount the lightest ones i can find ill use 2 part epoxy , the 48" shaft is 93.00 but IMO well worth it total cost around 150.00 +- plus the entire shaft will be 100% water proof top to bottom after each end is capped off and sealed .A friend of mine made one just like that and he said there is no float problem Happy building Jim

http://dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=135

 

[Critterhunter]

Good project. The Whites tall man carbon rod is so long that my lighter guage upper aluminum shaft is very short, so I don't see much in weight savings by going all carbon fiber. I mean my upper shaft might only be about two foot long perhaps, and it's such a light weight aluminum that it's way lighter than the Minelab upper shaft even if it was the same length.

If I were you I'd just buy the Whites tall man carbon rod for your lower shaft and then buy your other carbon for the upper one maybe. The Whites already has the two headed snap pin, and trust me if you drill the hole all the way through the shaft (like Minelab did NOT do) so both snap pin heads can pop out of both sides of the shafts it takes all the slop out of it even without using a cam lock. I don't use a cam lock on my land rig and there is no slop. The Unger window cleaning tubing fits over the Whites rod like a glove. That's a handy tip for people with the stock shaft. Drill the blasted snap pin hole out the other side so both heads can pop out. It'll really snug things up so long as you don't drill the hole any bigger than it needs to be for the head to snap out. I don't know why Minelab did that because the snap pin they suppy you with stock has two heads on it like any other detector uses. Probably to save a penny.

For bike end bars, while hollow aluminum ones are super light, they DO sell carbon fiber ones. You might want to look into that since you are going all carbon.

Far as the arm cup. From memory the stock Minelab one weighs 8.8 ounces, over half a stinking pound. I got the Whites "heavy duty" one from their site for I think $10. I doubt you'll find a lighter one than this at it's super light but very sturdy. I remember it being very cheap, and I got it when I ordered two of the tall man carbon rods for $10 a piece too. The arm cup comes with a strap, and the rods come with snap pins but no rubber washers or bolt/nut. Not only were these parts much cheaper than Minelab's, but they of course are MUCH lighter than the Minelab arm cup or shaft.

That thread link posted on the first page of the Sovereign accesseries sticky to my light weight build has a ton of pictures and such in it. The trickiest part is figuring out how to mount the Elite or GT box clip to the shaft since the stock Minelab arm cup holds the box clip in place. Somebody helped me to figure that out and it was so obvious and easy that I overlooked the solution.

Oh, and far as you using epoxy...Again, if you have a rivet gun then it don't get much lighter than that to attach the arm cup or box clip or such. Rivets are aluminum. I could have used flat headed screws for the box clip and arm cup but I wanted max weight savings so I riveted that stuff on. The Whites are cup and the box clip are like they are made for each other, because if I remember right the arm cup has a hole at the bottom that lines up with the box clip's back rivet hole, so one river secures that end of the box clip and also the arm cup. No need for further attachments for the arm cup as it snugs the shaft very well with no slop, so only one more rivet (or flat head screw if you don't have a rivet gun) at the front of the box clip to secure that end to the shaft too.

The box clip for the Elite and GT is two pieces. One piece mates with the Minelab arm cup. Drill out the two rivets that hold the clip together and set aside the part that mates with the arm cup as you don't need it. Then just rivet or flat head screw the clip onto your new shaft. Easy as pie.

Check out White's own website for the rod/arm cup. When I looked before those parts were cheapest direct from Whites themselves.

EDIT: See that you want the entire shaft to be waterproof for water hunting I guess?. Yea, then a one piece deal would be the wise move. But if you drill two holes right above the coil insert no worries with water in the shaft, as it will drain out when you leave the water. Maybe I'm missing it but is there a point to wanting the shaft to be waterproof inside for water hunting?

Either way, your way with a single one piece carbon shaft and using epoxy to put everything on would for sure save a few more grams here and there and make the lightest shaft possible. That's what I was shooting for with my build. I had people telling me little things like even replacing the stock velcro for the coil cable was piddly stuff and wouldn't amount to anything, but I saved almost a pound and a half off the stock machine's weight.

All those little things add up, just like using spray on bed liner on the coil (5 or 6 coats weighs a couple grams versus 2 to 4 ounces for the coil cover). Somebody once told me if you pay attention to your pennies and dimes the dollars will take care of themselves. That's the way I looked at weight savings for my GT. Now it's as light or probably lighter than any Whites I ever owned (the lighter Whites units).

What also helped was the 3 cell lipo I'm running in the alkaline holder as it's much lighter than 8AAs and for sure the stock rechargeable pack. I can always go back to 8AAs in the alkaline holder for resale value if I want, but otherwise I'll never touch those again.

PS- If you look in that huge Sovereign GT mods thread in the modifications forum, somebody towards the end of it built a entirely carbon shaft for their GT. If I remember right it was one piece but ain't positive. You might want to check that person's pics/build for ideas.

Also, if you are using epoxy because you are worried about drilling holes compromising your carbon shaft, don't worry about it. I've used the stuff extensively for RC plane structural support. If you drill a hole through it just coat the edges of the hole with nail polish or something so the fiber doesn't start running/shredding on you over time like panty hose. Never had an issue with it when I've done that.

 

[deepdiger60]

Critter the whole point of building this rig is super lite weight to swing , no reason for a 2 piece shaft , salt water and aluminum is a bad combo corrosion forms very quickly , plus no metallic on the shaft like rivets and screws except the copper wire in the coil wire , no holes anywhere , 100% waterproof and cost is no biggie , marine 2 part epoxy last for years i owned 2 boats used it all the time, just a good project to try out all winter take my time and think out each move . Thanks for the tips Jim

 

[xwyokid]

I was thinking about the White's rod but, I got to looking at the lower rod on my new GT and I swear it looks like carbon . Is that possible? I know for sure the upper bar is aluminum and the lower bar is totally diffrerent.

 

[deepdiger60]

I was thinking about the White's rod but, I got to looking at the lower rod on my new GT and I swear it looks like carbon . Is that possible? I know for sure the upper bar is aluminum and the lower bar is totally diffrerent.

Kid i dont think the shafts on the new GT is carbon fiber but they are not alum. either . Jim

 

[dewcon4414]

If you are thinking of using the tall boy mod in the ocean up North you might want to talk to OBN. Good move for still water/wet or dry sand, but in heavy surf he wasnt as impressed as a good idea.

Dew

 

[xwyokid]

Here's some photos of my lower rod on the new GT. Any thoughts?

 

[Critterhunter]

It does look like it's got a carbon weave in it, but fiberglass can have that too. They lay down a layer of cloth and then glass over it for strength. I do the same thing with some of my longer RC plane wings when I don't want to muck with putting carbon tubes in them for strength because the airfoil I made on some is so thin (like my glider) that it would be hard to sink carbon tubes into it. All I know is that the lower rod on my stock GT shaft is indeed fiberglass because it's much heavier than carbon would be. I doubt Minelab is suddenly using carbon for the lower rods since they never were too interested in updating the hardware on machines but then again who knows? All I can say is that the Whites tall man rod is at least twice the length or so of the stock lower rod but it weighs next to nothing compared to the stock GT lower shaft.

Deepdiger, yea...I missed what you were doing with a waterproof rod so of course a one piece carbon rod would be the way to go then. Sounds like a max weight savings high tech approach using epoxy. Best epoxy I've found thus far has been a hobby grade one sold at most hobby stores for planes/trains/car builders. Both bottles are clear, but one has red writing and the other black. That stuff works wonders in my plane builds where I need to use epoxy, like for plastic parts or such. Foam body parts I use Gorilla glue on as it foams up and traps air in it so it's very light, and foams into the pours of the foam. I've fixed some major damage on my foam plane builds with the stuff. I just tape the area real tight so the glue can't escape and it will make the repair so strong it'll never break there again. I also usually weight the two parts with heavy weights so the foaming action can't push them apart.

Dewcon, yep...The Whites tall man rod might be a little too weak for water use using a big coil like the WOT or in heavy currents. But I have used my land rig with the tall man Whites rod in the water swinging the 15x12 when I had it and it did fine, but I still wouldn't trust it over time. Far better to use a heavier/sturdier rod for extended water use, since weight isn't really an issue in the water anyway with a shaft.

For my land rig though, bumping into trees in the woods with both the 15x12 and now the 12x10, I've had no issues with the strength of the Whites rod. I even flexed it in my hand before installing it and then the stock GT rod, and both seemed to have the same amount of give to them IMO. I was mainly talking about land rigs for using the Whites tall man rod.

I saw where one guy for his water shaft on his Excal uses a single fiberglass rod from home improvement stores. I think he said they sell blanks and no need to buy one with a tool on it. He said it was very strong. For me using the stock GT shaft in the water it's sturdy as all heck. Way too overkill for land use IMO, but perfect for water.

I hunt fresh water but I'm still wondering if that snap pin it came with is going to hold up over time. I looked at it the other day and it seems to still be shiny with no rust. Many like Plugger's stainless steel (I guess?) cam lock type deal. Not sure if that bolts through the snap pin hole or not or just replaces the cam lock, but I know some guys put a stainless steel bolt and nut in place of the snap pin for added rigidity on their water shafts.

I've found on all detectors I've owned the cam locks are worthless and do little to take the slop out. Far better to drill out the snap pin adjustment hole so both heads can snap out both sides of the shafts. If you drill it straight so no need for a bigger hole for the heads to fit, it'll take out all the slop in my experience.

Water hunting slop is of major importance, as a little slop will work the shafts looser and looser over time due to water resistance.

Also important to secure the coil cable many times up the shaft with velco, because even slight movement over time could produce a short. I think it might even be a good idea to run the coil cable flat on top of the coil secured to it with zip ties or velcro, and then directly up the shaft from there, because the second most common place to get a cable short is right where the cable goes down into the coil. I bet it's from the cable hanging in the air from there to the shaft where water resistance is flopping it around ever so slightly.

Some guys secure their coil cables with zip ties but I think that might work a short into it over time due to the small area of compression on the cable. I picked up a hole role of velcro loops from a home improvement store and they are lighter than the stock velcro (yea, I know it weighs nothing but was shooting for every gram in weight savings) and feature a hole in them to pull the other end through and really snug things up. I use them on both my land and water rigs. Nothing bothers me more than seeing a guy land hunting with his coil cable all loose and flopping around in spirals down by the coil. Those cables have foil and copper in them, not to mention the movement can cause EMI problems too.

I run my coil cable straight up my shafts without spiraling it. Only when it gets past the grip do I coil it around the shaft. That way it's as far away from the coil as possible.

This might sound nitpicky but I even flip my snap pins upside down so the bottom of the "V" shape is pointed away from the coil. Way I figure it less metal near the coil the better just in case that *might* make any kind of difference. Also one of the biggest reasons I don't use coil covers, as trapped dirt/sand/water under the covers can really play havoc on a detector. If you didn't clean under it and move to another site now you've got two types of soil under the coil in a sense.

Spray on bed liner also saves me like 2 to 4 ounces of weight at the end of the coil by not using a cover, and only added a couple of grams to my coil when I weighed it before and after, and that was using 5 or 6 fairly heavy coats of the stuff, that I let dry well between coats in the hot sun for half a day between those coats. Guys who don't let it cure up hard are the ones who complain bed liner doesn't set up hard for them. And also if they don't lightly sand the coil and clean it with rubbing aclhohol, otherwise it won't stick good.