I posted this in another forum also,the more help I get the better.Hi guys and gals, I've had my Umax and 10x12 combo for about 1 1/2-2 years and I have found some good stuff. One of my questions is: Am I giving up on my faint signals too early? I have researched to dig the very faint sounding, repeatable signals for the deep goodies. My Umax is usually set just under zinc penny, I will dig to a foot, sometimes even more, then I use the pinpointer which will go another inch, then I just fill in the hole because I don't think the object would be that deep. I pinpoint very well so I don't think I'm missing on the sides of the hole. My deepest coins have been in the 5 to 8 inch range, usually after a rain. I have found soda cans deep, but I know the super-strong beep I get from those. So I guess I have a few questions. Should the faint beeps get stronger as I dig? Does the machine miss some of the deep coins because it can't get that deep at the setting I use, (just under zinc penny). Does the machine lose its ability to discriminate the deeper you get. (Could it detect a coin at 9 inches in all metal where the machine would have missed the coin if set at zinc penny?) That's a lot of questions, and any help would be great. Thank you, Dan
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Silver Umax with 10 x12
- Thread starter ds6191
- Start date
Howdy 6191
'Usually' after taking out a plug of soil, the signal will get louder on a true deep target. I use a UniProbe pinpointer to chase deep targets with, and will never be without one, they are deeeep and save alot of time for me. Shallow can slaw will sudenly cut off the signal as you are are raising the coil slowly, while sweeping over the suspect signal. Coil presentation over the target at different heights of coil lift over the target and seeing how high you get over the target, and signal drops out will tell you alot about target size and depth. Just keep playing with it and it will come to you like a light bulb clicking on in your head. Just become one with the metal detector............Hombre
'Usually' after taking out a plug of soil, the signal will get louder on a true deep target. I use a UniProbe pinpointer to chase deep targets with, and will never be without one, they are deeeep and save alot of time for me. Shallow can slaw will sudenly cut off the signal as you are are raising the coil slowly, while sweeping over the suspect signal. Coil presentation over the target at different heights of coil lift over the target and seeing how high you get over the target, and signal drops out will tell you alot about target size and depth. Just keep playing with it and it will come to you like a light bulb clicking on in your head. Just become one with the metal detector............Hombre
Thanks Hombre, I love the silver and I find a lot with it, I guess I just have to keep at it. It just scares me a little bit to just quite on some of those faint signals,I read some of the posts about how deep some of the finds are with the silver,I don't know. Can the silver really find a coin at 9-12 inches or more? I guess I will just keep swinging and keep learning. Thanks again, Dan
Hey Dan
It just takes time to get to know your detector, I dig the faint signals too. If the signal is small. faint and repeatable, I'm going for it. A good pinpointer is a big help in finding deep targets. If the target is a deep piece of small nonferous junk, it does not bother me at all because i know the detector is doing it's job. Ya gotta dig some trash if want the cash. One time I dug a 1866 two cent piece at about 11 inches deep, and I almost gave up on it before I got it out of the ground...........so ya gotta be persistant and dig it to be sure. Of coase LOCATION plays a big part of the decision to dig for deep coins or jewelery, and I have found nice silver coins just below the surface, so they can be hiding anywhere in the soil.........deep or shallow.
It just takes time to get to know your detector, I dig the faint signals too. If the signal is small. faint and repeatable, I'm going for it. A good pinpointer is a big help in finding deep targets. If the target is a deep piece of small nonferous junk, it does not bother me at all because i know the detector is doing it's job. Ya gotta dig some trash if want the cash. One time I dug a 1866 two cent piece at about 11 inches deep, and I almost gave up on it before I got it out of the ground...........so ya gotta be persistant and dig it to be sure. Of coase LOCATION plays a big part of the decision to dig for deep coins or jewelery, and I have found nice silver coins just below the surface, so they can be hiding anywhere in the soil.........deep or shallow.
Just remember this-the Silver has softer responses. A coin at 5" can sound almost as soft as a 7" coin. I don't know exactly why, but I experience it all the time. At first I thought this detector wasn't gonna be very deep as some of the 4" coins were so soft sounding. Then I found a penny at 7" that was only a little softer sounding.
Thanks guys, You guys are great, A couple more questions, To get the deeper coins,should I be hunting on a lower discrimination then zinc penny? Will the machine detect a deeper coin if the discrimination is set lower,(on nickel or foil)? As long as the signal is a faint repeatable, that is something I should dig also? The deepest oldies I have found have been a Indian head penny at 6 inches and a barber dime at 5 1/2 inches. That was just recently.So now I'm experimenting with digging deeper iffy or very faint repeatable signals. Thanks again Dan
Rebel1
Member
All metal has a big advantage if you want to find the real Good stuff. Check out this article on Masking. It will let you know just how small a piece of iron can cancel out a good find.
BENEATH THE MASK
Thomas J. Dankowski
Unedited version
--- Published in Western & Eastern Treasures March, 2000 ---
Let's get technical! Several years ago, I had a 'seemingly' insignificant, yet unforgettable experience with my Fisher CZ-6a metal detector. My knowledge and learning curve of the detector was virtually complete at that point in time, as I had about 200 hours of operation with the detector.
At a local school in Titusville, Florida I detected a weak, yet consistently repeatable coin signal from my detector. Before recovering the target, I thought this very deep coin signal would be a perfect opportunity to test every possible control panel set-up configuration of the detector. My learning curve was complete, finally! No adjustments to the control settings improved the signal to any greater extent. I then recovered the target. At less than 3" deep, I recovered a 1952 silver dime, face down. I was absolutely stunned on how weak the signal was. I instantly (and incorrectly) lost confidence in the detectors abilities. I placed the dime back into the 3" deep hole and passed the standard 8" coil over the silver dime. The detector nearly gave me an overload signal. That's more like it, I thought! I then put the grass plug back into the hole, covering the dime. Now the signal nearly disappeared again. Confused, I removed the grass plug and passed it over the coil. No signal. The plug was clean. Disappointed, I pocketed the dime, covered the hole and moved on. Less then one minute later, I received another identically weak signal. At 9.5" I recovered a worn 1928 mercury dime. It was less then 4 feet away from the first dime in the same type of low mineral soil conditions. Wow! What is this inconsistency?
Two years pass, never forgetting this incident. In my feudal attempt to gain more knowledge about better detecting techniques - I discovered the answer, with startling results.
In a professional test garden, I buried a tiny staple (slightly rusted) from a standard household stapler. This nearly weightless staple could be detected to a depth of 1.5". ((It is important to understand that the United States dime has become the national test standard for testing and comparing most general purpose detectors)). Now, having the knowledge of the detector's capabilities on this small staple, I decided to bury the staple 1" deep and directly over the top of a dime that was buried at 8.5" deep. (Keep in mind that Florida soil conditions are virtually mineral-free. Other States may have slightly varying results). As expected, the detector signaled 'iron'. The dime was 'masked' from detection, due to the staple. Removing the staple (leaving the dime), the detector then signaled "coin" with a fairly strong and consistent signal, even with the coil as high as 6" above the ground. Then I re-buried the staple 3" deep, over the same dime. Here is where the startling results begin. The detector was silent! The staple was too deep to give an audio response and the dime was completely masked (hidden) because of the staple. A case of "SILENT" masking. Then I buried the staple at 4", then 5", and then 6" deep (over the dime) and achieved identical results. Moving the staple away (off-center) from the dime by 4.5" I could then pick up the dime, but the detector would read the coin as a pull-tab and only signal in one direction. Passing the coil over the staple first, the detector remained silent. (Silent masking again). Replacing the ferrous staple with a non-ferrous lead BB from a BB air-rifle also produced identical results. Even when the detector was placed in the all-metal mode, the detector would give only a very slight chatter that just sounded like ground minerals. Is this a fault of the detector? Absolutely not! My White's 6000 Di Pro and Minelab Excalibur 800 equally failed.
Here is what's happening: The electromagnetic energy from the coil punches into the ground and hits the staple producing an electromagnetic "halo" around the staple. The signal strength is dramatically reduced, and IF any energy does manage to make it down to the dime (very doubtful) - that signal must then return back to the coil - but will fail on the return path when it hits the staple "halo" again. (Metal detector coils operate under the principle of inductive coupling).
When you discriminate iron with any detector (Minelab calls it "iron mask") you have achieved nearly nothing. (Simply, there will be no audio response reported in the headphones). The detectors electromagnetic signal is still disrupted by the iron. It does not matter if you transmit one frequency, two frequencies or 17 frequencies into the ground - electromagnetic energy is electromagnetic energy, and iron will always disrupt this energy. This is not a fault of any detector, only an indication of where technology is at today. There is not a detector on the market today that can "see through" iron. And I think I could safely say that less than 20% of the coins in the schoolyards and parks have been recovered because of masking, silent masking and deep depths.
If a 8" coil can 'see' a one gallon volume of dirt and the 11" coil (not 10.5") can 'see' 7 gallons of dirt at any given time, it is a fact that you are 7 times more likely to 'mask' a object with the larger coil, especially in trashy areas. It is so easy to get into trouble with the larger coil AND NEVER KNOW IT!
A true 'Double D' coil is a leap in technology and can separate targets better than the standard concentric coils; however, there are drawbacks. An 8" Double D coil will generate a signal (hypothetically) 8" long by 1" wide giving incredible adjacent target separation. As long as there is about an inch of distance between objects laterally, a true Double D coil will signal each target individually. Minelabs discontinued "CoinSearch" coil is a perfect example of a true Double D coil. The drawback is a decrease in overall detection depth. It is physically difficult to condense the electromagnetic energy into a narrow knife-like beam (directional field intensity) and achieve the same depth that a concentric coil attains. Still, no coil design can see through one metal object and reach the deeper target, then signal only on the deeper target. Why would the detector want to report the deeper, weaker target? When electromagnetic energy is used to locate metallic objects, masking is characteristically, an inherent flaw. This is where we stand today with our technological limitations.
To further validate these characteristics of physics for the purpose of statistical analysis, I conducted one more experiment. I was honored when KELLYCO fulfilled my request to borrow $5000 in equipment for a experiment. KELLYCO allowed me to borrow a Minelab SD2200d detector and 3 coils, one of which was the huge 18" coil. I utilized this equipment extensively for 5 months.
Testing
At an abandoned baseball diamond, I COMPLETELY sanitized the soil of all metal objects using my Fisher detector in the all-metal mode, and from 3 different directions. A fair amount of trash and 9 nice coins were found. Now, this baseball diamond was completely sanitized by the Fisher. The Excalibur also verified this status.
Now it's time for the SD2200d to shine. Please understand that the SD is a pulse induction (PI) machine and is specifically designed for gold nugget (including tiny pinhead size) prospecting. It has extreme sensitivity and depth capabilities, however, inherent to pulse induction machines, discrimination is very poor.
After 11 days of effort and a spinal column needing traction, I recovered an ADDITIONAL 1151 items. Regaining my sanity, I feel compelled to share this knowledge. Bear in mind, this is NOT my normal hunting habits. I found 4 tiny earrings, 2 gold rings, one silver ring, 2 silver pendants, 39 coins and over 1100 pieces of trash, all within the confines of the interior of a baseball diamond! Most of the trash consisted of steel and lead shot from shotgun shells - much smaller than the BB's used in a BB gun. Boot tacks, broken pieces of staples and tiny flakes of chewing gum foil were also common.
Lessons learned; masking is unsuspectingly more prevalent then ever expected. Of the 39 additional coins recovered, most of them were well within (detectable) reach of the Fisher, but were masked. A few of the coins were deeper than the Fisher's capabilities. The SD2200d with its pulse induction will find many objects that would normally mask and silently mask other objects. By a large margin, the SD is the most powerful detector I have ever used; however, it is NOT designed for coin shooting. I strongly recommend against using this machine in an environment where discrimination is critical (most areas!).
A thought to ponder
Nine (9) coins were found with the CZ. Thirty-nine (39) ADDITIONAL coins were (unmasked) found with special equipment. Forty-eight (4
coins in total. Looking at the ratio a bit differently; 9 of the 48 coins were detectable by a top-line coin detector. Thirtynine additional coins--- that's over 500% more coins,,,, were masked! Yes, unsuspectingly, this is THE norm!
Are there remaining items (including coins) in the baseball diamond that all three detectors missed? ABSOLUTELY! Awaiting future technology!
Thomas J. Dankowski
Unedited version
--- Published in Western & Eastern Treasures March, 2000 ---
thomas@dankowskidetectors.com
Rudy Garcia
BENEATH THE MASK
Thomas J. Dankowski
Unedited version
--- Published in Western & Eastern Treasures March, 2000 ---
Let's get technical! Several years ago, I had a 'seemingly' insignificant, yet unforgettable experience with my Fisher CZ-6a metal detector. My knowledge and learning curve of the detector was virtually complete at that point in time, as I had about 200 hours of operation with the detector.
At a local school in Titusville, Florida I detected a weak, yet consistently repeatable coin signal from my detector. Before recovering the target, I thought this very deep coin signal would be a perfect opportunity to test every possible control panel set-up configuration of the detector. My learning curve was complete, finally! No adjustments to the control settings improved the signal to any greater extent. I then recovered the target. At less than 3" deep, I recovered a 1952 silver dime, face down. I was absolutely stunned on how weak the signal was. I instantly (and incorrectly) lost confidence in the detectors abilities. I placed the dime back into the 3" deep hole and passed the standard 8" coil over the silver dime. The detector nearly gave me an overload signal. That's more like it, I thought! I then put the grass plug back into the hole, covering the dime. Now the signal nearly disappeared again. Confused, I removed the grass plug and passed it over the coil. No signal. The plug was clean. Disappointed, I pocketed the dime, covered the hole and moved on. Less then one minute later, I received another identically weak signal. At 9.5" I recovered a worn 1928 mercury dime. It was less then 4 feet away from the first dime in the same type of low mineral soil conditions. Wow! What is this inconsistency?
Two years pass, never forgetting this incident. In my feudal attempt to gain more knowledge about better detecting techniques - I discovered the answer, with startling results.
In a professional test garden, I buried a tiny staple (slightly rusted) from a standard household stapler. This nearly weightless staple could be detected to a depth of 1.5". ((It is important to understand that the United States dime has become the national test standard for testing and comparing most general purpose detectors)). Now, having the knowledge of the detector's capabilities on this small staple, I decided to bury the staple 1" deep and directly over the top of a dime that was buried at 8.5" deep. (Keep in mind that Florida soil conditions are virtually mineral-free. Other States may have slightly varying results). As expected, the detector signaled 'iron'. The dime was 'masked' from detection, due to the staple. Removing the staple (leaving the dime), the detector then signaled "coin" with a fairly strong and consistent signal, even with the coil as high as 6" above the ground. Then I re-buried the staple 3" deep, over the same dime. Here is where the startling results begin. The detector was silent! The staple was too deep to give an audio response and the dime was completely masked (hidden) because of the staple. A case of "SILENT" masking. Then I buried the staple at 4", then 5", and then 6" deep (over the dime) and achieved identical results. Moving the staple away (off-center) from the dime by 4.5" I could then pick up the dime, but the detector would read the coin as a pull-tab and only signal in one direction. Passing the coil over the staple first, the detector remained silent. (Silent masking again). Replacing the ferrous staple with a non-ferrous lead BB from a BB air-rifle also produced identical results. Even when the detector was placed in the all-metal mode, the detector would give only a very slight chatter that just sounded like ground minerals. Is this a fault of the detector? Absolutely not! My White's 6000 Di Pro and Minelab Excalibur 800 equally failed.
Here is what's happening: The electromagnetic energy from the coil punches into the ground and hits the staple producing an electromagnetic "halo" around the staple. The signal strength is dramatically reduced, and IF any energy does manage to make it down to the dime (very doubtful) - that signal must then return back to the coil - but will fail on the return path when it hits the staple "halo" again. (Metal detector coils operate under the principle of inductive coupling).
When you discriminate iron with any detector (Minelab calls it "iron mask") you have achieved nearly nothing. (Simply, there will be no audio response reported in the headphones). The detectors electromagnetic signal is still disrupted by the iron. It does not matter if you transmit one frequency, two frequencies or 17 frequencies into the ground - electromagnetic energy is electromagnetic energy, and iron will always disrupt this energy. This is not a fault of any detector, only an indication of where technology is at today. There is not a detector on the market today that can "see through" iron. And I think I could safely say that less than 20% of the coins in the schoolyards and parks have been recovered because of masking, silent masking and deep depths.
If a 8" coil can 'see' a one gallon volume of dirt and the 11" coil (not 10.5") can 'see' 7 gallons of dirt at any given time, it is a fact that you are 7 times more likely to 'mask' a object with the larger coil, especially in trashy areas. It is so easy to get into trouble with the larger coil AND NEVER KNOW IT!
A true 'Double D' coil is a leap in technology and can separate targets better than the standard concentric coils; however, there are drawbacks. An 8" Double D coil will generate a signal (hypothetically) 8" long by 1" wide giving incredible adjacent target separation. As long as there is about an inch of distance between objects laterally, a true Double D coil will signal each target individually. Minelabs discontinued "CoinSearch" coil is a perfect example of a true Double D coil. The drawback is a decrease in overall detection depth. It is physically difficult to condense the electromagnetic energy into a narrow knife-like beam (directional field intensity) and achieve the same depth that a concentric coil attains. Still, no coil design can see through one metal object and reach the deeper target, then signal only on the deeper target. Why would the detector want to report the deeper, weaker target? When electromagnetic energy is used to locate metallic objects, masking is characteristically, an inherent flaw. This is where we stand today with our technological limitations.
To further validate these characteristics of physics for the purpose of statistical analysis, I conducted one more experiment. I was honored when KELLYCO fulfilled my request to borrow $5000 in equipment for a experiment. KELLYCO allowed me to borrow a Minelab SD2200d detector and 3 coils, one of which was the huge 18" coil. I utilized this equipment extensively for 5 months.
Testing
At an abandoned baseball diamond, I COMPLETELY sanitized the soil of all metal objects using my Fisher detector in the all-metal mode, and from 3 different directions. A fair amount of trash and 9 nice coins were found. Now, this baseball diamond was completely sanitized by the Fisher. The Excalibur also verified this status.
Now it's time for the SD2200d to shine. Please understand that the SD is a pulse induction (PI) machine and is specifically designed for gold nugget (including tiny pinhead size) prospecting. It has extreme sensitivity and depth capabilities, however, inherent to pulse induction machines, discrimination is very poor.
After 11 days of effort and a spinal column needing traction, I recovered an ADDITIONAL 1151 items. Regaining my sanity, I feel compelled to share this knowledge. Bear in mind, this is NOT my normal hunting habits. I found 4 tiny earrings, 2 gold rings, one silver ring, 2 silver pendants, 39 coins and over 1100 pieces of trash, all within the confines of the interior of a baseball diamond! Most of the trash consisted of steel and lead shot from shotgun shells - much smaller than the BB's used in a BB gun. Boot tacks, broken pieces of staples and tiny flakes of chewing gum foil were also common.
Lessons learned; masking is unsuspectingly more prevalent then ever expected. Of the 39 additional coins recovered, most of them were well within (detectable) reach of the Fisher, but were masked. A few of the coins were deeper than the Fisher's capabilities. The SD2200d with its pulse induction will find many objects that would normally mask and silently mask other objects. By a large margin, the SD is the most powerful detector I have ever used; however, it is NOT designed for coin shooting. I strongly recommend against using this machine in an environment where discrimination is critical (most areas!).
A thought to ponder
Nine (9) coins were found with the CZ. Thirty-nine (39) ADDITIONAL coins were (unmasked) found with special equipment. Forty-eight (4
coins in total. Looking at the ratio a bit differently; 9 of the 48 coins were detectable by a top-line coin detector. Thirtynine additional coins--- that's over 500% more coins,,,, were masked! Yes, unsuspectingly, this is THE norm!Are there remaining items (including coins) in the baseball diamond that all three detectors missed? ABSOLUTELY! Awaiting future technology!
Thomas J. Dankowski
Unedited version
--- Published in Western & Eastern Treasures March, 2000 ---
thomas@dankowskidetectors.com
Rudy Garcia
Wow,Great article, I will try the nail and dime test. Thanks Rebel1 and all of you for helping me out. I love this hobby and I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how things work.
So there's a great chance at the park where I found the oldies there are more goodies,I just have to do the work and clear out the remaining garbage to get to them. Correct? I think I'm starting to see the light.....Thanks again, Dan
So there's a great chance at the park where I found the oldies there are more goodies,I just have to do the work and clear out the remaining garbage to get to them. Correct? I think I'm starting to see the light.....Thanks again, Dan
I posted my park finds in a new thread,(titled 3 oldies from a park). I guess that's why I'm asking all the questions about depth and discrimination. The oldies have given me the fever to find more oldies, I'm sure the coins I found are nothing special to most of you guys,But my boys and I were very excited to find them. Thanks,Dan
Rebel1
Member
Heck, everything is important to me right now as i am just getting started at this myself. But from reading and learning what i can on the forums, as well as experimenting with my detector in my own yard as well as where i hunt, i am learning what it is trying to tell me. More practice and digging is going to be involved before i have it down though. Have fun and good luck.