Several Mason Jars of Indian Head Pennies.......Maybe

[DavidRandolph]

Here's the story. This afternoon I decided to go to the old part of town and knock on a few doors to get permission to metal detect their yards. After a few not at homes and two absolutely nots, I got an elderly man to give me permission to search his yard. Then he tells me that he owns the house across the street as well. His daughter lives there but she is out of the country, but I can also hunt there.
He then tells me that he was born in that house and that his mother collected indian head pennies. He remembers when he turned 16 his mother said that if he ever needed any money she buried several mason jars of indian head pennies between the oak tree and the back porch. He said he had forgotten all about them until i mentioned that i find old coins and such. However a concrete sidewalk is in that area now. He told me that if i found them i could have them. I told him that i would give them to him because they might be valuable. He finally agreed that we would split the value if any 50 50. I asked him if i did find them under the concrete could i cut that section up and i would replace it. He said "go ahead". So here is my question: If indeed they are under the concrete and i find that wire mesh is in the concrete, do you think i can use iron mask to eliminate the iron to find the jars?. 2. what kind of a signal do you think i will have if i hit a jar full of pennies?.....any suggestions?

 

[MNCoinhunter]

If they used rebar or mesh in the sidewalk you would have a heck of a time seeing through that. Another thing would be if the workers found the jars while they were digging for the sidewalk in the first place. If not, and If you were able to hone-in on them your signal would likely come from the jar lid, unless the jar is laying on it's side. I would dig all signals in this area, especially the ones that are obviously large. I can't imagine that they were buried very deep. So many variables going on here .. good luck !

 

[xterranomore]

Very interesting and like McDave said lots of variables. Good luck.

 

[Critterhunter]

Despite what has been implied about certain machines, detection fields are like soap bubbles....They "bust" and warp/wrap around the very first metal object (meaning the shallowest) in the field. First metal object that touches any part of that field, even way off on the side of the coil, is the only thing the detector is going to see, even if a deeper coin is directly under the center of the coil.

The only way two objects can be seen (washed) in the field at the same time is if they are at about equal depth and right up against each other, and when that happens two non-ferrous targets in the field will usually be averaged in conductivity. No way to know they are two separate targets. Only thing you can gleam from a detection field at same depth/right up near each other, to where both are washed in the field at the same time, is any ferrous/non-ferrous properties of the now "as one" target (hello ferrous/non-ferrous #s on the FBS machines or Iron Mask ON of the BBS units...Don't know of any other company who can gleam these traits as to what the detection field can tell you).

All I have ever read about detection fields is that, no matter how much electrics you cram in the box, you just can't get around that, nor being able to see a deeper metal object in the field at the same time. Just can't change the laws of physics. Think of it as a machine that spurts out soap bubbles. Once the bubble leaves the machine, the first metal object it hits is going to "burst" it. Doesn't matter how much sophisticated electronics you stick in the box, the field can't be "guided" around corners that way. It's a static physical property.

No way around it, so long story short...No...if there is re-bar mesh in that cement, you are going to have no way to see those coins. Detection fields can't see what the coil can't see separately. To have any hope at real unmasking of coins from trash, the field must be sharp enough to miss all surrounding metal objects that are shallower than a coin and see it and it alone. IE: By way of a coil with a very sharp DD line (12x10) in the left/right perspective or say by way of a small trash coil (length wise separation). Any part of the field that hits any shallower metal object anywhere in that field, even if not directly under it, and the game is over...

Think of it this way...A broad flashlight beam might be able to hit a closer object and shine past that to something further away with part of it's beam. It don't work that way with detection fields. The only thing the control box will see is the closer object in that beam...

 

[DavidRandolph]

Thank you all for your responses. WoW Critterhunter, are you an electrical engineer? LOL I had to read that twice to understand what you were talking about. I think i understand it now, thanks for that detailed explanation.
Tomorrow I'm going to search for those jars of pennies and i will report back what if anything i find there....hoping for the best

 

[Critterhunter]

Be sure to run no iron rejection. Mason jars with zinc based lids usually give a large nasty coin signal, but if the lid is steel, and hasn't long since rotted and washed away, you are not going to see the pennies but rather get either an iron hit (steel lid) or perhaps a large zinc-like or higher coin signal. Dug a ton of those mason jar lids over the years. Always gets my heart going when I pull it out of the hole, hoping there is a jar under it filled with silver. No such luck yet, but they're out there if your willing to dig big signals, iron included.

My biggest heart stopper in that respect was a lead I had on a cache. Right where I suspected it might have been buried I got a large iron hit. Dug down and saw the tied top of a canvas bag. Lifted it out of the hole and it was heavy! Didn't open it up outside in case of prying eyes, but rather took it inside to the man who gave me the lead on it (he knew of rumors as a child).

We opened the bag and found it full of old rusted nails and bolts and nuts. Wasn't a plant to play a trick. The dirt wasn't disturbed nor was the bag looking anything other than like it had sat for decades in the ground. Either it was a decoy as to the real bag, or it was just buried to get rid of all that junk.

Since then somebody mentioned to me..."Did you re-check that hole, it might have been put on top of the real thing to fool anybody who saw something getting buried." Man, that thought drives me mad, because I can't remember all these years later if in all that excitement I re-scanned the hole later. Maybe some day I'll head back and re-grid the spot and see what turns up...

 

[NealNoIN]

If the man is pretty sure they are there and you've looked well everywhere else but under the sidewalk then it would be worth it to trench under the concrete if it's not too wide.
At least it would be worth it to me. Think of the good exercise you'll be getting!
HH
Neal

 

[Critterhunter]

Who was new to detecting and using a popular entry level machine that seems to be sold at a lot of chain stores perhaps. We ran into each other at a public park and I gave him a few pointers on digging plugs and such to keep us from getting banned at sites, as his holes were a bit pieces and parts type of deal that had me looking over my shoulder for any potential problems it might create.

Anyway, he told me of a house he grew up in, where his father and his mom were in a long process of a divorce (probably back in the 60's judging by his age), and that his dad in his mindset started to bury jars of silver coins in the backyard that he converted from regular cash to stash away, by the sound of it just so she didn't get her hands on everything he had in that divorce.

He mentioned that he and his family have since parted ways from that house, but that he knows his dad never recovered those coins. Can't remember the reason why. Might have been that he said his dad had passed on (God forbid) before he had a chance to dig all those jars up. So his plan was to secure permission from the current home owner, which he knew and was friends with, to go back there and try to find those coins.

I thought about making him an offer to help with that effort, with a small percentage of the take, but then visions flashed in my head about what kind of holes he, being new to this hobby, might be digging in his "friends" yard. Figured I'd just pass on that, so never offered. Some things aren't worth potential problems. Probably would have to cough up my share of the silver to pay for a new lawn with my luck. I only hope he heeded some small advice I gave him on digging clean 3 sided plugs so it'd flip right back in the hole, and how to hide them better and lower the risk of killing the grass by digging deeper than the root ends, and pushing the plug back down hard to force out any air that might dry out the roots.

Still, should have got his number, just so I could keep in touch and find out if he found those jars. Love hearing stories about that sort of thing.

 

[DavidRandolph]

Saturday i went to the old house to find those mason jars of indies. The bad news is that the only large signal i got in the area that they are suppose to be at is under the concrete. the good news is that there is no wire or re-bar in the concrete. i got a great signal 3 ft in from both sides. the signal was very strong even when i raised the coil up over 18 inches above the concrete. So I'm going to do a test in my yard this week with a mason jar of copper washers buried about 6 inches down to try to simulate what i think it should sound like. then i will cut that section of concrete out to find out for sure what is there. i have the permission of the home owner and will pour new concrete back.

While i was there the owner came over and i thought at first that he had changed his mind and was going to tell me to leave. Thankfully i was wrong. he had been in contact with his daughter that lives there and told her what i was doing and she told him to tell me that she lost an expensive diamond ring while playing valley ball last year in her yard and was willing to pay me (get this) $1000.00 if i could find it for her. I told her father that if i found the ring the only thing i would like is to be able to continue detecting the property as it is huge. He was very thankful and i could detect whether i found it or not. i have to wait until the daughter gets back in the US as she is out of the country to find out approx where she thinks she lost it.

I hunted no stop for 4.5 hours and i posted everything i found. in the beginning i dug every signal, because i didn't trust my knowledge of the machine yet. As a side note, if you want to learn your machine dig every signal until you understand what its telling you. after about 2 hours i was able to relax and know that is was trash, but as you can see in the pictures i dug it all. actually i got pretty good at knowing a bullet from a coin.

The strangest thing i found was that cylinder of lead. I have no idea what it is. the most exciting find was the 1913 bullet. i know it could have been dropped many years later but still it had a date and must have been there a long time. i found the shell first then about 10 inches away i found the bullet, the primer as you can see was not fired. in fact all the ammunition was unfired. by the way the small bullets are 38 special Smith and Wesson. Well all in all I'm very happy with the se pro, and it was a good day and I'm looking forward to cutting the concrete out and finding out what is there. I'm also surprised and a little disappointed that i did not find any wheat pennies or silver, all the coins were about 5 inches down but were clad. I will update again when i get the concrete out of the way.
i've included a link to a good site that has alot of info on ammunition and head stamps if any of you are interested.
http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=headstampcodes

 

[mudpuppy]

If that's a backyard sidewalk, didn't think there would be any rebar in it, good! you may be able to pry up sections if they have the expansion grooves, and see whats under it and lay it back down if its not too large...you can also pry up a section, put a wood block underneath the edge, and give the slab a whack with a sledge hammer, and the whole thing will break up into manageable pieces. Very good post with lots of useful information and congratulations on those finds and for gaining access to that piece of property! Let us know what happens next!
Mud

 

[DavidRandolph]

If that's a backyard sidewalk, didn't think there would be any rebar in it, good! you may be able to pry up sections if they have the expansion grooves, and see whats under it and lay it back down if its not too large...you can also pry up a section, put a wood block underneath the edge, and give the slab a whack with a sledge hammer, and the whole thing will break up into manageable pieces. Very good post with lots of useful information and congratulations on those finds and for gaining access to that piece of property! Let us know what happens next!
Mud

There are no expansion joints, so I'm just going to cut that section out with a saw and remove that section. i think I'm going to video the whole process from start to finish. I may look like a fool if there is nothing there, but if there is, it would be pretty cool to have it all on video. thanks for your reply.

 

[Critterhunter]

Please video it and post it, regardless of the outcome.

I remember the Geraldo Rivera search for Al Capon's vault years ago live on TV. Nothing in it but an old bottle if memory serves. The press ate him alive. I thought that was misguided. Almost like they expected him to know what was in the vault before it was opened for sure.

The real treasure in this hobby is the journey, not so much the destination, so regardless of whether that large signal you found turns out to be coins or not, I'm sure most of us would love to experience and share that journey of exploration with you, and watch it unfold.

If anybody laughs and pokes fun, with it turning out to be an old paint can or something, then I'd have to ask them why they are in this hobby in the first place? If we knew what we were digging before digging it, how much fun would that be in the long run?

So please film away, and whether it turns out to be a jar of coins or not, the fact is you made the effort, and a large effort in fact by removing that sidewalk, and so should be praised for making such an effort, regardless of the end outcome.

 

[DavidRandolph]

Please video it and post it, regardless of the outcome.

I remember the Geraldo Rivera search for Al Capon's vault years ago live on TV. Nothing in it but an old bottle if memory serves. The press ate him alive. I thought that was misguided. Almost like they expected him to know what was in the vault before it was opened for sure.

The real treasure in this hobby is the journey, not so much the destination, so regardless of whether that large signal you found turns out to be coins or not, I'm sure most of us would love to experience and share that journey of exploration with you, and watch it unfold.

If anybody laughs and pokes fun, with it turning out to be an old paint can or something, then I'd have to ask them why they are in this hobby in the first place? If we knew what we were digging before digging it, how much fun would that be in the long run?

So please film away, and whether it turns out to be a jar of coins or not, the fact is you made the effort, and a large effort in fact by removing that sidewalk, and so should be praised for making such an effort, regardless of the end outcome.

Its funny you mentioned the Al Capone vault. I was thinking the same thing, when i thought about doing a video of the whole extraction process. Thank you for your words of encouragement, and you are absolutely right. It IS the journey.

I tell people that its like fishing, you never know what is on the line until you pull it up. But its not really about the fish, its the journey, the fresh air, getting away from the rat race of society. when i put those headphones on I'm in another world. Its peaceful, and when you do hear the sound of warbling, that's just the icing on the cake! I will video it. Its going to be a few weeks yet, as I'm a little busy, but i will post it. Thank you again.

 

[utahshovelhead]

I tend to disagree with the idea that the Mason jar lid will ring before the jar of copper coins. Having dug a jar of silver coins with my E trac the signal that I recieved then was just like a silver dollar or big silver coin signal. If the Jar is packed with injuns then it should ring big copper. I say that with a bit of caution because if the Jar has a few coins in it then the larger item (lid) may ID and not the copper.

Just saying