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Sensitivity too high?

timmer114

New member
Hi guys, long time lurker here. I got my EX 2 back in mid-September. So far, im still in the learning curve. I got Andy Sabisch's book, and it along with Cody's posts have been a great resource.

My finds have been minimal, alot of Wheaties, and a really nice Indianhead. I have yet to find silver though. The pennies I have found are as deep as 8 inches or so, so I think depth-wise im doing okay.

My problem is alot of false signals. They register as coins, and even give ferrous values of 11 21 and are ususally on the high upper right of the cursor screen. The thing is, sometimes it's a great signal when sweeping one-way, and zero signal sweeping the other way. I dig them just to be sure, but when I get down about 9 inches or so, I lose the signal, nothing in the hole, nothing in the pile. Which lead me to buy the Sunray Probe, (which is pretty neat) but heres the kicker, even the Probe will sound off in the hole sometimes, but it's a staccato signal, the pitch of the signal drops a tone octave or so, almost into the pull tab sound range, but the ferrous readout is still the same, still says coin.

Okay, so, I will dig under the probe, and find nothing. The probe signal is a bit broken up, and ill dig dig dig, and still get a signal from the Probe, but never find any coins.

Here's my settings. Sensitivity is set to 28 ususally but I have gone down to 24. Auto sens is on.

Threshold is set to 9 with the low tone for threshold set to 1. (my ears hurt with the factory preset thresh tone)

I have coins in accept, and foil and nails rejected. the rest are just kept blank.

My gain is set to 10, and I set the tone variation all the way up to 10.

I have been using DEEP recovery option, but not FAST, should I turn DEEP off awhile? will I lose that many targets with it off?

Am I biting off more than I can chew? I dont want to lose depth, but I suspect that the difference between a sens setting of 17 and 30 is pretty negligable. Should I reject out everything except coins and jewlerly?

I live in South central WI about 40 minutes north of Madison. Our soil around here is pretty sandy, so im not sure if that means the iron content is higher or lower.

I guess my question is, based on my settings, should I back off on the sensitivity a bit? and maybe reject out FE Coins? turn the gain down a little? Is my threshold okay at 8 or 9? the factory preset has it at nearly 20 if I remember, and thats too much threshold for me.

Ohh, one more thing, the tone through the Koss headphones really hurt, I have a busted eardrum, and since then certain tones or vibrations make me cringe. Any recommendations of good phones? I was thinking about a pair of Sunrays from Dixie detectors. The review seems good, but I wanted to know what your guys opinion was.

Thanks so much!
Tim
 
Tim,

That is the way iron hits, it will bounce from upper right to upper left. Mostly this is caused by oxides (rust), old square nails are especially difficult to avoid. Many times when you dig these signals they will disappear because what you were detecting is a rust spot in the ground that breaks up when you dig.

For now don't worry about digging signals that only hit from one direction. I imagine that you are also getting a lot of nulling on these targets, but get an occasional good signal as you repeatedly sweep over them.

Unfortunately real deep coins or coins that are next to iron can often sound the same. The explorer excels at finding these but it takes alot of practice to tell them apart, and even after several years experience you will still get fooled.

Your sensitivity is fine, if you are in Auto the detector adjusts it for you and it is hard to know where it really is at. If it is chirping and beeping alot when you are holding the coil still it is too high, that is really all you have to know. Most of us who use manual mode will kick it up to where it is unstable and then back it down till it smooths out.

I would perhaps back of on the gain or turn deep off. What both of these do is amplify weaker signals. Deep works mainly on the real faint signals, while gain increases the volume of weak and middle strength hits so they all sound loud. The problem with this is that it is harder to judge depth by sound alone. Many times you will want to avoid digging louder shallow targets and concentrate on the weaker signals.

If you have the coins accepted you dont need to reject nails, they cover the same area of the screen.

It sounds like you are doing fine. Just remember that there are no magic settings or programs with the explorer, it really boils down to time spent with the unit and the experience gained by digging lots of signals and learning what the machine is telling you. As you get more confidence you probably want to start decreasing the amount of discrimination you use. Try switching from the coins to IM-16 on when you get an iffy signal and watch how the target crosshairs bounce around. This is one of the keys ways to determine what is in the ground. Generally iron will bounce from the extreme upper left to the right side of the screen but usually a little lower than it did on the left side. If it stays high on the right side or hits at the top middle of the screen you may have a coin buried close to some iron.

Chris
 
Hey Chris,

Thanks for the speedy reply. You know, when I dig them dissapearing signals, I get down around the 10 inch mark or so, and the soil seems to take on a different color, sometimes it's white, sometimes, it's a hard red crust, so what you said about rust oxide and broken up nails makes total sense looking back.

So if I accept coins, it will reject nails without me setting the option on the detector? I imagine that will help get a little bit of depth if thats the case. I notice alot of you Vets run the sensitivity in manual mode, I think I am going to try it, I'll start around 24 and go down from there until it stablizes. Or do you think auto is the way to go? Thats the sweet thing with this detector is that there is so much room to experiment. Unfortunately being a techie makes me want to try all the settings and find "the best" and when I start doing that I think sometimes I make things worse.

Thank god for the go back to factory preset function.

One more question, if I leave the pulltabs and jewlery blank, will my detector still find nickles and gold? or am I better off accepting pull tabs and jewlerly. I dont mind digging the tabs if I have to.

In other words, should I just place a check next to coins, and reject foil and crowncaps and go hunting and not worry bout the nails? I have access to some pretty old Farm houses around Montello here, but alot of the buildings have collapsed and I can only imagine it's nail city :)

Thanks again Chris, nice to meet another Explorer user from my neck of the woods, your advice is much appreciated!
 
I know EXACTLY what you mean about the phantom targets... Can't add much to the previous post but will agree that you need to bring down the gain. The best piece of advice from Chris is switching from a disc pattern to the IM-16. When you have an "iffy" signal in a disc pattern, going to IM-16, you hear what's around the target. Hard for me to explain, but you can "see" what's going on. Sometimes what was "iffy" really sticks out as a good target.

I've got mine since April and I can say I've really come a long way, especially in the last month or two. I'm getting much better at this :) I'm kind of a techie too and I've done what you probably SHOULDN'T do and that is try a whole bunch of different things while learning the machine. I was trying to run before I learned how to crawl. I've probably wasted some time, but what the heck, I've learned from my mistakes.

As far as "select" is concerned, I'll use it depending on the conditions. LEARN / ACCEPT/REJECT works really well in setting up your own pattern. Cody has great posts on that as well as ICONS. (just do a search of the forum) Here's the link to the ICONS info you were asking about. I never fully understood it until I read the post.

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?10,213969,213969#msg-213969

As far as sensitivity is concerned, I know people, experience Exp users (with fantastic finds) who use AUTO SENS exclusively. Then again, I've read posts from people who say the AUTO SENS over compensates and you lose depth. I rarely use AUTO and stick with manual. There's really nothing complicated about it. Raise the sens until it's erratic and then bring it down until it's stable. Better yet, run it in AUTO and listen. Now go to MANUAL adjust it and duplicate the sound. Simple. Make sure you noise cancel after adjustments.

I've read so many posts from newbie Exp users. The ones who are the most frustrated, I think, don't really put that much effort in. It's really not AS complicated as it's rep is. I think it's information overload... it gives so much information, you just need to learn what the heck it's telling you. What was a confusing bunch of tones for me in the beginning, now makes sense. I can remember a post from someone who said they could run in IM mode and filter out the bad from the good in their brain. Dang if that isn't the truth. :)

P.S.

About headphones... I've been asking around and decided on the Black Widow's. I just ordered them today and should have them by the weekend. I still find it hard to believe that the headphones make that much of a difference; can't believe I'm not hearing targets. (I'm a musician with, I think, pretty good hearing) However, the consensus from experience users is they do make a difference. Can't wait to try them out.
 
Chris has given you some good advice and would like to ad a few things I have seen. One is try to run in manual sensitivity so you have control over the detector as auto will kill the depth in trashy areas I have seen I seen where 32 auto will not pick up a dime on top of the ground, but if you dropped it down to 16 auto it worked good, Most of us around here in ND find a manual sensitivity at 24-26 has been doing the best, but you will have to see where it is stable in your area. Second if you are getting a lot of falses on iron try switching to the ferrous tones as now iron will be low pitched, but rusty bottle caps will be high pitched like a coin. I find this easier as when I get the hight pitched of a good coin I look at the cross-hairs or the digital number and if it is lower right bouncing to upper right to left I know it is rusty crown cap. If it is a high tone and staying on the top right and bouncing to the top left I will dig those if the tone is high. Before when i run conductivity sounds I found many rusty nails that fooled me.
Like Chris said stick with the repeatable signals until you learn it more.

Good luck
Rick
 
All,
I also am a newbie/lurker.. I've been in the Explorer "learning curve" mode for a short while now... and have not been able to get past the confidence level of pinpointing a target..I'm still working in my backyard.. at first, due to all the nails, etc. in the yard.. with the factory presets/discrimination.. I was in a close to pure nulling mode and thought my unit was defective.. from this forum and Andy's book.. I found the IM -16 mode.. which at least let me hear what was going on.. that helped.. then I was digging and might find something and might not.. so I found an area void of signals.. placed a dime on in that area and practiced "pinpointing"... seemed that once I found the signal and concentrated on visualizing the target under the bar on the coil that runs from front to back.. and pulling the coil back towards me.. that I could get a 90%+ rate of target find..
I decided, once I had removed tons of trash from a 10 x 5 foot area of the yard.. that I would clear this area for a "test garden".. so.. increased sensitivity to 30, used IM -16 to start clearing.. I was then mostly NOT finding targets.. ?! so.... I took an old rusty nail that I had cleared from my "test" area.. placed it in an area void of signals.. starting "re-examining" my "pinpointing technique.. ?!.. I started getting a signal on the nail starting at at 6" plus on the outside of the coil on all sides ?! (top, bottom, left and right)..
BTW.. I had by this point reduced the sensitivity to 23/auto...
Needless to say.. I'm totally frustrated and confused.. can someone tell me what is going
on?! do I have a defect in the coil/unit? am I totally nuts?! at this point I cannot tell where the signal is coming from in relation to the coil.. I thought the "light bulb" in my mind was started to flicker.. now it is totally out.. and exploded.. :?:
Can someone tell me where, in relation to the coil, I should be detecting signals.. according to the pinpoint instructions and such.. I thought it should be along the top to bottom bar on the coil.. from what my testing is telling me.. this is not true.. AT ALL..
Sorry if this is off subject.. I thought it might kinda/sorta be related for newbies..
I just need help.. and thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated...
 
Tim,

Many have had the problem of digging a deep hole and finding nothing. There are several reasons for this. One of the main challenges is improper pinpointing, especially when the target is a rusty nail that is 6" or so deep. A rusty nail normally hits in the upper left corner of the screen. But, if the outer edge of the coil is over the nail, then it tends to move to the upper right corner of the screen. If you are not careful in the pinpointing of the target, you will think you know where it is and still be off by 5". This is out of the range of the X! probe and you are never able to pick it up.

For most of the targets is it relatively easy to pinpoint without using the PINPOINT mode. But, for those cases where the pinpoint seems a little illusive, then It takes only a few seconds to use the PINPOINT mode to determine exactly where the target is. Most often when you use the "Xing" pinpoint method you will find following. You do get a target response where you thought the target was, but as you continue to investigate the target location continues to move away (up to several inches) from where you thought it was. You zero in on the target and switch back to the normal operating mode. Sure enough you have a target that locks on to the upper left corner of the screen.

Hope this helps.
Glenn
 
Well, this is not Tim.. but.. I appreciate this post.
It seems to relate directly to the problems I have been
having.. nothing frustrates me more than to KNOW I
hear a target.. and think I have pinpointed.. only to find
nothing.. If I then use the Explorer again (no X1 probe here)..
the target still sounds off in the center of the hole (visualizing
on the center bar of the coil).. but.. when I widen my sweep...
I will suddenly notice that I hear a "target" several inches from the
hole.. ?! so... my feeble mind thinks.. ahhh... what I visualized as a
target sounding off on the center line.. is actually a target sounding off on
the outer edge of the coil.. either left or right?! (but this doesn't seem to
match the descriptions I see/heard about the pattern of detection for the
double D coil?! I was under the impression that the detection area was
down the top to bottom bar on the coil?!)

I appreciate this post.. I will definitely go out and continue
my "testing" tomorrow afternoon.. using your techniques..
(I have plenty of old, rusty nails left in the ground to test on :D)

Question: Why will using the pinpoint mode help to locate the
target... better than pinpointing in the discrimination mode?

Also... a yoyo idea I had.. and tried for a while in the midst of all my
frustrations.. was to move the coil well away from the "test" target..
on the right side.. then sweep back left until I heard the target.. mentally note this location... then repeat this from the bottom up, left to right and top down..
this gave me a visual "box" of where the target should be..
(and maybe even an indication of the size of the target?!)...
for some reason.. I thought.. well... this should definitely
indicate to me a center point for the location of the target... but..then again..
it could just be another one of my doo-doo ideas...
does this sound feasible at all?!

Thanks again for sharing this.. and thanks to all others sharing their experiences
with the Explorer here.. and helping newbies like me to get a little further down
the road....
 
The pinpoint mode is all metal and has an auto target shrink function. This auto shrink function can cause a target to be missed if the coil is raised and lowered while in pinpoint so they suggest we use discrimination first then pinpoint. I always use pinpoint as it saves a lot of digging since I measure the size of the target as part of the ID process. As you sweep the coil this shrink function will cause the target to appear to crawl around in the soil and then stay put. This is the actual location of the target. However, the stock double D has an electromagnetic footprint about the size of a trash can lid and depending on the size and type of metal target will detect a target several feet from where it appears to be. The hot strip is just that a hot strip down the center compared to the edges of the coil as far as detection is concerned.

If a target signal does not get stronger the closer the coil or probe gets to the target then it is not going to be a good one. I have been very careful when the soil is nice an soft and dug down to some of the hits that stay faint. I have found buried cables, pipes, old pieces of iron, brass, you name it but never a coin to match the faint sound.
 
Tim,

Some of the others have posted about phantom signals. When I first started out I had this problem also. Now I have a periscope probe and never dig until I find the target first with the probe. As you get more experience this will happen less, I'm often amazed by how small a target the explorer will pick up and how it can be almost impossible to find it without a probe.

As far as accepting and rejecting. Each built in program will black out a certain area of the screen when you reject or accept it. If an area is already blacked out you don't need to reject or accept another program that affects the same section of screen. Nails and coins are a good example. If you accept coins it blacks out the upper left hand of the screen, same area as rejecting nails does. No need to do this twice. Crown caps rejected blacks out a small area in the lower right hand of the screen that is not affected by accepting coins, so here you would need to add it in. Get my drift?

Nickels and gold rings are tricky. Nickels when close to the surface and away from trash will hit in a very consistant spot. Some people open up a little box at the bottom of the screen or learn them in. This works for newer nickels, but ones that are deep or next to trash will hit over a fairly wide area and most likely you would not hear them if you have pulltabs or foil rejected. Gold is even worse, depending on size and what it is alloyed with it can hit almost anywhere, almost impossible to discriminate out. If you are land hunting you probably won't find many gold rings unless you dig almost everything that is not iron.

Hunting nail infested area is tough, you can either listen to all the nails or hunt in a complete null. If you are finding stuff the key is to keep hitting the area from different angles and speeds. Remember the key to the explorer is lots of patience, learn what the machine is telling you. If you are in tons of trash there are no settings or patterns that will make detecting hear any easier, unless you are just trying to skim the shallow ones off the top.

Chris
 
dsurcy,

Sounds like you are trying to learn in a trashy area and that is hard for even seasoned users.

Couple of things. I almost never can run at sens of 30, at least not in manual. You said you had turned it down to 23 auto, which means it could be running about 8 or 9 manual equivilant. And that might be a smart place to start- use manual and turn it down to 8 or 9 and try pinpointing there. If you use pinpoint mode it doesn't matter what the sensitivity is at, pinpoint automatically detunes so hopefully you only get a signal right over the target- and it works quite well. I always used this until I bought the WOT (a big 15 inch coil) and found pinpoint almost impossible with it in a trashy area. Now I almost never use pinpoint with any size coil but do what is called making an X, when you get a target visualize it being somewhere under the center web of the coil, try moving to a different angle approx 90 degrees away and swing again and try create an intersection. Dig there. In trash often you cannot move 90 and get a signal.

If you don't have a probe get one ASAP, you will never regret it and it will save you time. I don't even detect when my probe is out being fixed.

The biggest thing is to be patient, it takes a long time to learn. Over the years we have heard from many newcomers who try to do to much or ask for programs and settings to use. Many think that their unit is defective. The ones who keep at it eventually start making good finds, but it always boils down to patience and experience.

Try find an area that isn't so trashy. I always suggest finding some 1950 tract housing. Chances are you will find some silver coins and some wheats and not have to deal with a century's worth of nails from reroofs and trash piles. Also not many people bother detecting housing from this era so you will probably be in virgin territory. At older houses this is unlikely.

Chris
 
Yep... in my own backyard.. built in the 50s.. I dunno.. lots of roofing jobs?
and someone doing a lot of building in the backyard?! it's amazing..
actually. Andy suggested that I learn in a less trashy area.. I talked to him
a little when there were problems with the post office and delivery of his
book to me... I'm just bound and determined to "nail" the pinpointing before
I go on a "real" hunt. :cool:

I have multiple electronic pinpointers.. but not the X1 probe.... I learned
the importance of those about six years ago.. when I first started trying
MDing.. then got into boating.. laid aside the MDing and now with retirement
getting really close..
I figure I will have time for both boating and MDing.. I hope..

I have a strange way of detecting.. kind of obvious.. ain't it?! :D
I carry plastic tent stakes in my pocket.. locate a set number of targets...
mark them with a stake..turn the detector off.. and lay it aside and do my digging..
that is why I haven't considered getting the X1 probe... nutty.. aye?!

I definitely went astray with all the options, etc.. but have gone back to factory
presets... with IM -16 and ferrous.. about the only other adjustments I do at this
point is on sensitivity.. been running it at around 16/auto... most times...

I appreciate your suggestions.. I will try them..

I'm in North Florida... thinking I may combine MDing and the boat at some point
during retirement..if I can ever nail this thing.. and get an excalibur...:)

I saw a post from Cody that clarified the detecting patterns of the Explorer...
that will help.. if I can correctly visualize what is happening.. and relate that
to the sounds..

Thanks again...
 
Thanks Cody,
That helps a great deal.. whoa... a pattern the size of a trash can lid?!
No wonder I was confused...
This will help me visualize what is happening and relate that to the sounds..
and.. I will also try/practice the pinpoint mode of pinpointing.
 
When I first saw the periscope probe.. I was very interested in
getting one... when I looked to purchase..seems they had been
discontinued.. has that changed?
 
Hi guys, thanks for the good information and advice.

I went back to my old school where I been hunting. I dont know if it's been worked or not. This school is about 110 years old, and is now a park, but the town president said no one ever asked permission to detect there and that I should go for it. Of course, that doesnt mean that no one has worked this 13 acres over before.

Anyhow, been running with the sensitivity on manual at around 22, seems to be relatively stable. When I been getting signals that I suspect are iffy, (not sounding in both directions when swining) I hit IM -16 and go over it again. Although the pitch is really high,on the beep I notice that the cursor jumps far left instead of being upper right now. I am thinking im doing this right, because I press Iron mask, it's set at -16 then I hit detect and have a blank advanced find screen, where the cursor hits hard left. This must be the falsing your talking about Chris. I also notice on these signals, that the depth meter can move up and down about 4-6 inches just by moving the coil a hair left or right over the signal.

In iron mask, I do get alot of signals, but then again I am hunting an old school that is now a park, on a giant hill that Im thinking kids rolled down over the years. I found tons of clad on the hill, so I can only guess that the kids of old also rolled down this hill, I hope they dropped alot of mercury dimes hehe. I think after I clear the clad out of here I might start finding the older stuff. Unfortunately I dont have any old silver dimes laying around that I can make an old coins program with, but as soon as I get a couple silvers, thats high on my list of things to do, especially for this place, I must have picked up about 8.00 in pennies dimes and quarters the couple hours I was there today. All clad of course.

Im using the 8 inch Minelab coil as it's easier to pinpoint with, but Im using the stock one tomarrow to cover more ground with. Chris, I did notice a huge gain in depth in manual sens mode. You hunt in some of the same areas I do I suspect, is 22 a little too high? should I back down to 16 or so? I know every area is different but I just want a rough idea of your success.

Lastly, I notice that in IM-16 I was getting signals pretty constant, but without any variation in tone. IS this normal? and should I be relying more on the cursor screen in IM-16 instead of the tones? because to my ear they sounded all like pennies and dimes, really high squeals, I guess it's just going to take some time.

I really do love this detector though and I see it's awesome potential. When I turned on manual sensitivity suddenly I was air testing wheaties at about 10 inches, something I could never do with the auto sens on.

Anyhoo, thanks again for all the help and I mean that to all of you guys who posted in this thread. Hopefully I will be able to post some good finds soon :)

Happy hunting
Tim
 
Cody,
Last night I reread the sections of the Explorer manual and
Andy's book about the detection pattern of the Explorer... and
pinpointing...

Both seemed to be saying that you would detect a signal ONLY
as the center bar/line passed over the target?!
I must be interpreting this incorrectly, or, missing some point?!

This doesn't seem to match what I've seen during ground testing
on targets.. or the pattern you mentioned?!
Also, all diagrams of the detection pattern seem to indicate a
straight line down the center of the coil?!

Can you clarify what the text/documentation is trying to tell me/us?!

Thanks,
Dan
 
I've gone to a coin shop here (possibly even a pawn shop
will have them) and purchased silver coins..
of all sorts and years.. at the time I purchased them they
were 4 times the face value.. probably closer to 5 or 6 times
face value now.. they should have boxes of coins they sell
just for silver content.. i.e., the price does not include mark
up for rare or condition of the coinage

This could be a quicker way to get your coins for creating a learned
program.. without having to wait.. unless you just want to "find"
them yourself... :)
 
Chris, how do you equate a sensitivity of 23 in semi-auto to 8 or 9 in manual? Would that mean the preset program using semi-auto of 16 only has a manual sensitivity of 1 or 2?

I have discussed this with the folks at Minelab and they strongly recommend semi-auto as do some very experienced users. I use manual as I like to set the sensitivity myself but see no problem with semi-auto other than in the presence of strong RF such as next to a transformer or when doing test in my house with the TV on or florescent lights in the shop.

I am not saying your statement is not correct but am interested in an insight into the operation of this circuitry. From what I see in the drawing and explanations in the patents semi-auto should work just fine but often see suggesting that it is not very effective. There are some ideas that it lags in some way compared to manual but that is not how the circuit works as far as I can tell.

I tired to get as much information as I could from Minelab and they insist that semi-auto is more effective and manual only has limited advantage and then only in some soils. I am not sure but do know the detector is much more stable in semi-auto overall which may be the "real" reason for suggesting semi-auto. I have found some very faint targets and faint falsing in manual that is not there in semi-auto. I do know that semi-auto adjust the demodulators to compensate for the changing Q the coil which is critical since the soil constantly changes the Q of the coil. We do want the Q to be high and constant so we don't hear that scratching sound in the threshold which may be their point.
 
You wrote:
(but this doesn't seem to
match the descriptions I see/heard about the pattern of detection for the
double D coil?! I was under the impression that the detection area was
down the top to bottom bar on the coil?!)


You are correct in that the center strip is definitely the hot strip. The detector is much more responsive when the center strip is over the target. As you move the center strip slightly away from the target (left to right), then the target response drops dramatically. But, as you move the coil so that the target is under the outer rim, then you again get a target response (but not nearly as strong as for the center strip). It is for this reason that you will get a double (or triple) target response over a coin that is very close to the surface).

You asked:
Question: Why will using the pinpoint mode help to locate the
target... better than pinpointing in the discrimination mode?


I find that in the PINPOINT mode that the target position is generally much better defined than in the normal search mode. Note that for deepest targets that the PINPOINT mode may not indicate a target (or goes into sort of a "put-put" mode) while it is still possible to hear the target in the normal search mode. Using the PINPOINT mode it is much easier to determine that you are not directly over the target and the sound will become louder as you move towards the actual target location.

ABOUT LARGE TARGETS

There are time when you try to pinpoint the target when it seems to be moving around. Quite often this is because there is a large target under the coil. When this happens, then I go into the PINPOINT mode. You can quickly tell that there is a very large target under the coin that you are probably not interested in.

FINAL COMMENT ON PINPOINTING.

If it is taking you longer than 10 seconds to pinpoint a target, then you are probably not pinpointing correctly.

Hope this helps,
Glenn
 
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