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Randy/Digger post on target trace / pinpoint

upfishcreek

Member
I've read this and watched videos and am still a little confused. Am I correct in thinking the Target Trace works only if you do not run an open screen? It will see two objects only if one is discriminated out? With the open screen it will always only id the stronger target? With disc it shows the good and a ferrous smear? I almost have my head wrapped around this and wish I could have that aha moment where it makes sense. It's getting there but it's these little things that I can't figure out. Thanks all.
 
Bob, Bob, Bob, what are we gonna do with you, Lol, rest assure that Randy will be with you soon on this. He is one of the best at saving our poor little butts when it come to knowledge on this fantastic machine. Target trace is the best tool ever put on a detector, I use it mostly when I'm in heavy iron infested areas. once you understand it, you'll love it, Gene
 
To me, the easiest way to think of discrimination is that it only applies to the audio response. The detector will detect anything metal. If you set some targets up to be discriminated, it will still detect them. It just won't provide an audio response. Instead, you get a null of the Threshold. Therefore, regardless of how much discrimination you have set, all targets are displayed on the screen. But you'll only hear a tone on those whose properties have been set as accepted. If you have an "open screen", you will hear every target, if you go over them one at a time. But when you pass over multiple targets at the same time, which ones you will hear depends on the Separation mode you've selected. For example, if you are running an open screen with High Trash, you will hear the audio response of the target that produces the largest signal, regardless of whether it is a ferrous or non-ferrous target. If you were running with some discrimination and High Trash, and passed over two targets at the same time (one accepted and one rejected), both targets will be displayed, but the CTX 3030 will produce the tone of the accepted target. Even if the rejected target is larger. If you were using an open screen on Low Trash instead of High Trash, and passed over two targets at the same time, you will again hear the audio response of the target that produces the largest target signal. A major difference between High Trash and Low Trash is.... if you were running with some discrimination in Low Trash, both targets could be displayed on the screen (depending on the degree of masking) but the CTX 3030 will respond to the target with the larger target signal. Remember, in Low Trash, a strong rejected target can mask the signal of an accepted target that produces less of a target response.
The Separation mode that I find the most useful is Ferrous/Coin mode, with Target Trace. In an open screen, both targets will be displayed. If one of them happens to be a ferrous target and the other a coin, you will hear both responses. But the TID numbers will most closely represent that of the coin. If you implement some discrimination, and one of the targets is accepted and the other rejected, you will still see both targets on the display. But only the accepted target will produce an audio response. I typically hunt old homesteads and farm sites. As such, old rusty nails are my nemesis. At these sites, I implement enough discrimination to reject those nails. Even though the display will show the TID of the coin, I figure "why listen to the low tones"? I've not done this with many other detector's I've owned. But I find the processor of the CTX 3030 is quick enough that I don't worry about missing a coin while the nail is being rejected. And the ability of Ferrous Coin Separation to minimize the blending of target tones is phenomenal. Hunting with a moderate amount of discrimination in Ferrous / Coin is not a lot different than using an open screen.....except the rejected targets will null out the Threshold instead of providing an audio response.

A bit more on Target Trace....When you're out with the CTX 3030 and you hear those faint, "narrow" chirps that non-CTX 3030 users ignore....... implement Target Trace on Sizing Pinpoint and slowly go back over that area. Target Trace will allow the image of ALL targets to remain on the screen, long enough to analyze what is going on down there. And by using Sizing Pinpoint with a very slow sweep, you will be more than likely be able to hear an audio response from each target. When you implement Sizing Pinpoint with Target Trace, the "width" of the scanned area remains the same with each sweep. Unlike normal Pinpoint where it gets smaller with each pass. I find this much easier to separate and sort out targets. JMHO HH Randy
 
Randy: will high trash only work with discrimination and not an open screen? if so, how much disc is needed as I almost always use an open screen.
"If you were running with some discrimination and High Trash, and passed over two targets at the same time (one accepted and one rejected), both targets will be displayed, but the CTX 3030 will produce the tone of the accepted target. Even if the rejected target is larger"
 
martygene said:
Randy: will high trash only work with discrimination and not an open screen? if so, how much disc is needed as I almost always use an open screen.

Any of the Separation modes will work with an open screen or any amount of rejection. What I was saying is that, in High Trash Separation, the signal processor identifies each target and provides an audio response for the "accepted" target that has provided the largest target signal. In an open screen situation, where all target properties are accepted, no matter if it is ferrous or non-ferrous, since nothing has been rejected, you will hear the audio response of the largest target signal. On the other hand, if you had built a program where you had rejected some targets, and one of those targets you have now rejected happened to be that one that you heard when using an open screen, both targets would still be detected and you could see both of their images on the screen. But since you had set the target values for the larger target to now be rejected, you would get the audio response from the other target.....the one that was still set as "accepted". Remember, rejection only stifles the audio. The visual image is there all the time, for all targets.

High Trash Separation allows you to hunt an area that is cluttered with a mixture of "trash" targets, setting those trash parameters to be rejected, knowing that you will only hear the audio response of the accepted target producing the best target signal. This is a setting I might use for detecting in modern parks as the FE/CO values of modern trash is far different from the highly ferrous values of old iron or nails. How much discrimination? That all depends on what the trash targets are, how closely they resemble the FE/CO values of the targets I am wanting to dig and how much digging I want to do. If you are only looking for US coins, you can build a program around the coin charts we've provided on the Resource Center. If you want to include rings and jewelry, grab all of them you can find, scan them under the coil and set those properties to also be accepted. If you reject everything else, you will only be hearing target responses from the coins and the jewelry you have programed as "accepted" target values. JMHO HH Randy
 
Oops, I misread your question.
 
I think the confusion might be. What is best target signal? or largest target mean? Does that mean less ferrous? Does that mean shallowest? Does that mean it will show the strongest or most conductive? Especially if you have an open screen. That means iron is an accepted target. So how can you hear both at the same time. It is kind of not worded so clear in the manual. It leaves it very vague.
Les
 
unluckylester said:
I think the confusion might be. What is best target signal? or largest target mean? Does that mean less ferrous? Does that mean shallowest? Does that mean it will show the strongest or most conductive? Especially if you have an open screen. That means iron is an accepted target. So how can you hear both at the same time. It is kind of not worded so clear in the manual. It leaves it very vague.


Good points. In my opinion, nearly everything you mentioned could have an affect on target response or target signal. I can't speak to the wording in the manual as it was not yet available when I was testing the CTX 3030.

How I would explain it........a detector's coil contains both transmit windings and receive windings. The transmit portion of the coil sends a "signal" (magnetic field) into the ground. Electrical currents called Eddy currents are induced into each target when the electromagnetic field is present. These eddy currents then generate an electromagnetic field around the target which is then recognized (as a separate signal) by the receive windings of the coil. The magnetic field produced by a target is dependent on two factors.... resistance and inductance. Resistance is the opposition to current flow...the less the resistance, the more easily it will be for Eddy currents to flow within the target. Inductance is how a target reacts to changes in current flow. Inductance and Resistance are the two components of figuring a target's time constant. Time constants are used to help identify non-ferrous targets. Sometimes we refer to this as the "conductive value" of a target. But technically, that is not correct. Regardless, a target's resistance and inductance are determined by the metallic properties of that target, the size of the target and the shape of the target. In metal detecting, we also have to consider the depth of the target and the conductivity of the soil between the target and the coil. Deeper targets and less conductive ground will also cause a target to produce less of a target signal, due to a weakened electromagnetic field being transmitted and/or received.

To specifically address your questions..... if you had two targets, comprised of the same metallic content and buried at the same depth, the larger target would provide the "best" target signal. This would be due to having less resistance to the current flow. If you had two targets of the same size, but one was buried more deeply than the other, then the more shallow target would have the "best" target signal. This would be due to the fact that the more shallow target would appear to be larger than the deeper target, based on the electromagnetic field being induced. More conductive targets have less resistance, and would therefore provide a "better" target signal than a target with a higher level of resistance. Iron is a highly ferrous metal. Ferrous meaning the ability to be magnetized. The magnetic properties of ferrous targets cause them to have high inductance, resulting in long time constants. That is because the magnetic field of the target is made stronger by the magnetic "capabilities" of its ferrous properties.

In regard to your question as to how you can hear both ferrous and non-ferrous targets at the same time? You can't. You can only hear one target at a time, regardless of its ferrous content. But with the CTX 3030, especially using Target Trace, you can SEE both of them at the same time.

JMHO HH Randy
 
Very good info and a post worth saving. Thanks
 
Very nice, Digger.
That should be in the manual. I understand it. It is very confusing in the manual though. I would also like to add. The best way to understand it, in my opinion, is by watching and listening how it hits from iron to coin in ground-coin.in that target seperation it is very easy to see and hear how it works in that mode. The way it pretty much draws a straight line on the screen from the lower ferrous to the higher ferrous judging by your sweep speed. This is a very good post. I think many others will enjoy the information from it.
 
That is an excellent explanation Randy. I might add though that you are 100% correct that you can not hear two targets at exactly the same time..... BUT.....due to the speed of the processor (recovery time) the CTX can make it appear that you are hearing two targets at the same time in discrimination mode. In All Metal (pinpoint) mode, that is not possible.

In Discrimination (Hunt) mode, the CTX can ID one target, recover from the process and then analyze another target and ID it after the coil has moved enough to be over a different target. This process happens so fast that our ears can not tell the difference and it seems that two or more targets can be ID'd at the same time. An example is a good target with iron, the CTX can "see" both targets and give both a visual and audible response to both targets, at least in the Ferrous/Coin mode that I use. Target trace helps keep the targets on the screen long enough to help evaluate the situation and Sizing Pinpoint helps me isolate each of the targets. This is why Ferrous/Coin, Target Trace, Sizing Pinpoint is the setup that I use most of the time.
 
Thanks Randy and others for the replies.
When I got this machine some advice I got was to run it open screen all the time and listen. Obviously this seems like a good idea in ferrous coin but perhaps not too smart if one is concerned about masking. The fact you have the control over how you tackle a site is just astounding to me.

The dilemma with us in Canada is we are an enigma with our modern clad. It reads as junk but a toonie is 2 bucks in my pocket. I always hear no machine can do it all but wow this thing is close. I hit a trashy park and want to hit deep silver or I want to cherry pick clad I can customize this. Just amazing.
 
You can run any of the target seperations full open and work quite well as long as you use it with the combine profile. I use the high trash with it quite well, same as ground coin. As long as you put the ferrous line on the combine profile at around the 25 mark. It operates as an audible discrimination(if that makes sense to you). It also keeps the machine from nulling, which in my book is a huge bonus. Don't just stick to one target seperation, they all serve their purpose. Great post, guys.
Les
 
I forgot to mention that I use Combined Tone ID which lets you assign a tone to the ferrous area, low tone for me, and a high tone for conductive targets 30 on up. With a pretty much open screen, I can listen to the iron in the ground and hear the good targets too.
 
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