Question about relic settings- Monte?

[Stoof-tabsallday]

OK, so to better understand my settings I have a situation or two to run by you...

DI2 mode, tone break at 50, iron volume at 5 rest settings don't matter besides idmask as low as possible.

So with these settings, is my iron volume controlling my user set low tone up to 49 or is the iron volume the low low grunt and the low tone is up to 49 and the high is 50 and above?

Maybe a better example is all same settings above but iron volume at 0.

Will the iron volume at 0 mean that all targets up to 49 will be silent? Essentially same as idmask at 49?


I'm not sure if the iron volume is the a control for the user set low tone in 2 tone and the 0-20 in 3 tone or if it's on its own and even if I have idmask set up to 30 for some reason but iron volume at 5, would I still get a low grunt?

I hope you can make sense of this guy's.

In essence, is the iron volume a standalone channel that dictates sound of 0-20 no matter what's masked out, what your tone break is set at and which mode you're using?

 

[Monte]

OK, so to better understand my settings I have a situation or two to run by you..

Okay, I am ready, but I believe the issue is going to be the interpretation of "Iron Audio" combined with 'Tone Break' and the real division point for each setting.. To help those who might not be that familiar with the excellent FORS Relic, I might break down the descriptions we use in our questions and answers.

DI2 mode, tone break at 50, iron volume at 5 rest settings don't matter besides idmask as low as possible.

So, let me describe the settings you refer to for readers:

DI2 is actually Di2, and not read as D 12, and stands for Discrimination mode, with 2 audio Tones. There is a Low Tone, which we generally refer to as an Iron Audio Tone that is lower and bass-like, and the higher-pitched audio Tone that is VCO enhanced.

'Tone Break' is an operator setting for 'break point' between the Lower, Bass-Like Iron Audio Tone and the higher-pitched, VCO enhanced Audio Tone ONLY in a Two-Tone search mode..

The default 'Tone Break' setting is at the numeric VDI of '20.' This is also the 'break point' between the Ferrous [size=small](Iron)[/size] range targets and the higher-conductive Non-Ferrous targets. Therefore, the default Relic 'Tone Break' of '20' is also the functional Iron Audio Tone Break=Point between ferrous and non-ferrous targets.

If the operator alters the 'Tone Break' to a higher numeric setting, they are also shifting the 'Iron Audio" Low-Tone that will then include ALL targets with a conductivity level equal-to or below the new 'Tone Break' setting.

'Iron Volume' is the Iron Audio Range Volume or Loudness for ALL targets that are at or below the 'Tone Break' setting in any Two-Tone mode. In the Di/Three-Tone sewrch mode, Iron Volume is only functional for targets that fall in the '00' to '20' Ferrous TID range. The Iron Volume [size=small](or 'Tone Break' Volume') in any Two-Tone mode)[/size] can be adjusted from '0' [size=small](silenced audio response Volume)[/size] to '05' [size=small](the loudest and 'normal' Volume level possible)[/size].

'ID Mask' is the term used for the Nokta FORS series models to describe the Discrimination adjustment level.

So with these settings, is my iron volume controlling my user set low tone up to 49 ...

Yes, everything based upon numbers at or below the 'Tone Break' setting in any Two-Tone mode.

... or is the iron volume the low low grunt and the low tone is up to 49 and the high is 50 and above?

In Di2, or ANY Two-Tone mode, there are no more than Two Tones:

The Low-Tone, or Iron Audio Tone, for all targets that have a conductivity at or below the 'Tone Break' setting, and a Higher-Tone w/VCO enhancement for higher-conductive targets that register above the 'Tone Break' setting. There is no 3rd tone, just Low Iron Audio and High VCO enhanced modulated audio. The "Low Grunt" sound IS the Iron Audio Lower-Tone assigned to ALL targets at or below the 'Tone Break.'

Maybe a better example is all same settings above but iron volume at 0.

If you adjust the Iron Volume level to '00' then you have basically assigned a "silent search or no-sound Volume level to ALL targets below the 'Tone Break' setting Since the Ferrous/Non-Ferrous break-point in Target ID is established at '20,' that's where I personally leave my 'Tone Break' so I can audibly classify most typical iron junk.

If 'Tone Break' is increased up to the '49' setting you suggested, then there are many desirable Non-Ferrous targets that will then produce the Lower, Iron-Audio grunt sound, and they will also have a lower level Volume or Loudness, if the Iron Volume setting is set below '05' AND if you are using any Two-Tone mode.

Will the iron volume at 0 mean that all targets up to 49 will be silent? Essentially same as idmask at 49?

Yes, they will be SILENT, but they will still be detected and produce a visible Target ID read-out, whereas an ID Mask [size=small](Discrimination)[/size] setting of '49' would mean you will not hear the target response or see any visual response to the target. In actual in-the-field searching, you might experience a bit more good target masking in a trashy environment if you use too much ID Mask compared with only using a '00' Iron Volume level, depending upon the conditions.

I'm not sure if the iron volume is the a control for the user set low tone in 2 tone and the 0-20 in 3 tone or if it's on its own and even if I have idmask set up to 30 for some reason but iron volume at 5, would I still get a low grunt?

The Iron Volume control is a setting made by the user that adjusts the Volume Level of Iron-Range Targets that are at or below the 'Tone Break' setting in ANY of the Two-Tone modes. That's why I prefer to leave my 'Tone Break' in any Two-Tone mode at the '20' TID setting as that's where the Ferrous/Non-Ferrous TID read-out changes.

If you are using the Di3, or Three Tone, search mode, the Iron Volume level only effects the designed Iron/Non-Iron setting for those targets that have a TID of '20' or lower and that setting is not adjustable on the FORS Relic.

In Di3, the Tone Break' is used to set the break-point between the Mid-Tone and High-Tone TID ranges, so I prefer a 'Tone Break' setting of '65' in the Di3/Three-Tone mode so that most modern Zinc Cents, many early Wheat-Back Cents from 1909 to about 1920, and most Indian Head Cents from 1864 to 1909 will register with the Higher-Tone audio and not a Mid-Tone response..

I hope you can make sense of this guy's.

In essence, is the iron volume a standalone channel that dictates sound of 0-20 no matter what's masked out, ...

No, not really. Iron Volume is assigned to ONLY the Iron TID Range targets that are accepted [size=small](above ID Mask)[/size] in the '00' to '20' Iron ID range in the Di3/Three-Tone search mode.

what your tone break is set at and which mode you're using?

The Iron Volume level is assigned to ALL targets that are at or below the 'Tone Break' setting in all Two-Tone Discriminate modes, that are accepted above the ID Mask [size=small](Discrimination)[/size] rejection point..

Once you get the feel for the different functions and adjustment, the FORS Relic is one splendid metal detector to us for a wide-range of hunting needs. Once you understand the connection between 'Tone Break' and 'Iron Volume' controls for the different search modes, you will feel quite at-ease making quick adjustments for the site challenges you need to deal with.

Monte

PS: If I lost you on my explanation I am sorry. If anyone can meet up with me or give me a call, if they would like, I might be better able to demonstrate or verbally explain the uses of these adjustment functions.

 

[Stoof-tabsallday]

Thanks you answered perfectly.

So in essence, irone volume in Di2 isvolume of anything at or belowy tone break setting.
In Di3 it's for the unchangeable low to mid point of 20 and below.
That's what I as asking.
In a small way I was hoping they were different circuits and even if let's say In Di2 I set me break at 35 (wouldn't because I'm missing stuff there bit let's just say) and 35 and below were masked out. But with iron volume I could still control and hear the 0-20.
But with your explanation it doesn't.
I know it sounds weird to want this but in certain situations it would be helpful.. one being a larger piece of iron that on its edges would still give a grunt even though because of its size it reads a 50. This is a feature on a few other machines that helps discern large iron from other valuable targets.
I hope that made sense to you.

But your explanation is perfect. If I set the break of Di2 at 35 the idmask at 20 and iron volume at zero, I will still get numbers between 21-35 but no sound. And no sound and no readout from 0-20. (If iron volume at 5 I would get the same for 20 and below but get sound and numbers from 21-35)
Id mask controls both sound and readout and iron volume controls any target sound between break and mask number.

I do love it but with any detector, knowledge is power and the more I know of how I can set it up the better I will be.
Please make any corrections to the above if I'm in error.

 

[Monte]

Thanks you answered perfectly.

Are you sure?

So in essence, irone volume in Di2 isvolume of anything at or belowy tone break setting.

Yes, in Di2, COG, SWT and DEP, all 2-Tone modes, the Iron Volume controls the Volume or Loudness of ALL targets with a TID at or below the Tone Break setting

In Di3 it's for the unchangeable low to mid point of 20 and below.
That's what I as asking.

Yes, Iron Volume controls all of the Lower-Tones or Iron-Audio Tones that are accepted [size=small](above the ID Mask setting)[/size] and between '00' and '20' in the Iron Target ID range.

In a small way I was hoping they were different circuits and even if let's say In Di2 I set me break at 35 (wouldn't because I'm missing stuff there bit let's just say) and 35 and below were masked out. But with iron volume I could still control and hear the 0-20.
But with your explanation it doesn't.

• Correct. If you are in the Di2/2-Tone mode ..
.
• and you set the 'Tone Break' at '35' ...

• and if '35' and below were "masked out" ...that would imply all targets with a VDI numeric read-out of '35' and below were masked or rejected or Discriminated ...

• then the Iron Volume control would be useless as all the targets from '00' to '35' are rejected, Discriminated. or not heard and processed.

I know it sounds weird to want this but in certain situations it would be helpful.. one being a larger piece of iron that on its edges would still give a grunt even though because of its size it reads a 50. This is a feature on a few other machines that helps discern large iron from other valuable targets.
I hope that made sense to you.

Yes, however "large iron" can take different meanings because, unfortunately, iron ... a man-made product ... can be quite a challenge toi deal with.

Iron nails, cut iron wire, many iron bolts, and similar-shaped pieces of iron will have lower and more consistent TID read-outs and can generally more easily be rejected. Some types of iron trash, especially the crimp-on bottle caps, rusty tin and similar shapes of ferrous junk, can often, and quite usually, fool any metal detector and, due to the size and shape of the object, have a higher conductivity and produce a much higher TID numeric read-out.

The biggest trash target annoyance I deal with is 'rusty tin' that seems tri be in abundance at most of the old ghost towns I frequent. Iron nails are no real issue and I enjoy hunting in an iron nail infested site, but it is the flat-iron or sheet-iron type trash [size=small](bottle caps, rusty tin, and other similar kinds of man-made iron)[/size] that is more difficult to audibly and visually classify.

That said, while these types of iron targets can produce a higher numeric VDI response due to the higher-conductive nature of the object, they are also a little easier to separate from a desired target [size=small](a coin, trade token, button, badge, and so forth)[/size] because the visual Target ID is usually more jumpy or inconsistent. Additionally, you CAN usually hear the presence of the Low-Tone Iron Audio on the approach, the departure, or both as the search coil is swept across a sheet-iron trash target. Sometimes you have to listen closely to discern this, but that 'goose-squawk' Iron Audio is there to some degree.

But your explanation is perfect. If I set the break of Di2 at 35 the idmask at 20 and iron volume at zero, I will still get numbers between 21-35 but no sound.

Generally that is correct. You might see some visual display of audibly Volume silenced targets that are above the Discrimination or ID Mask setting and below the 'Tone Break' setting.

And no sound and no readout from 0-20. (If iron volume at 5 I would get the same for 20 and below but get sound and numbers from 21-35)

You will hear an Iron Audio response from targets above the ID Mask [size=small](Discrimination)[/size] setting and at or below the 'Tone-Break' setting, if the Iron Volume level is set at a very low '01' to the full-strength '05.'

Id mask controls both sound and readout and iron volume controls any target sound between break and mask number.

Correct.

I do love it but with any detector, knowledge is power and the more I know of how I can set it up the better I will be.

Yes, quite true, and while learning a detector to its fullest, I believe we also need to teach ourselves to use as much Sensitivity/Gain as we can control, but also use the least amount of Discrimination [size=small](ID Mask)[/size] we can tolerate.

Please make any corrections to the above if I'm in error.

Okay, I did where I felt we needed to understand the serttings. I just hope I haven't now confused myself on this.

Monte

 

[Stoof-tabsallday]

Thanks you answered perfectly.

Are you sure?

So in essence, irone volume in Di2 isvolume of anything at or belowy tone break setting.

Yes, in Di2, COG, SWT and DEP, all 2-Tone modes, the Iron Volume controls the Volume or Loudness of ALL targets with a TID at or below the Tone Break setting

In Di3 it's for the unchangeable low to mid point of 20 and below.
That's what I as asking.

Yes, Iron Volume controls all of the Lower-Tones or Iron-Audio Tones that are accepted [size=small](above the ID Mask setting)[/size] and between '00' and '20' in the Iron Target ID range.

In a small way I was hoping they were different circuits and even if let's say In Di2 I set me break at 35 (wouldn't because I'm missing stuff there bit let's just say) and 35 and below were masked out. But with iron volume I could still control and hear the 0-20.
But with your explanation it doesn't.

• Correct. If you are in the Di2/2-Tone mode ..
.
• and you set the 'Tone Break' at '35' ...

• and if '35' and below were "masked out" ...that would imply all targets with a VDI numeric read-out of '35' and below were masked or rejected or Discriminated ...

• then the Iron Volume control would be useless as all the targets from '00' to '35' are rejected, Discriminated. or not heard and processed.

I know it sounds weird to want this but in certain situations it would be helpful.. one being a larger piece of iron that on its edges would still give a grunt even though because of its size it reads a 50. This is a feature on a few other machines that helps discern large iron from other valuable targets.
I hope that made sense to you.

Yes, however "large iron" can take different meanings because, unfortunately, iron ... a man-made product ... can be quite a challenge toi deal with.

Iron nails, cut iron wire, many iron bolts, and similar-shaped pieces of iron will have lower and more consistent TID read-outs and can generally more easily be rejected. Some types of iron trash, especially the crimp-on bottle caps, rusty tin and similar shapes of ferrous junk, can often, and quite usually, fool any metal detector and, due to the size and shape of the object, have a higher conductivity and produce a much higher TID numeric read-out.

The biggest trash target annoyance I deal with is 'rusty tin' that seems tri be in abundance at most of the old ghost towns I frequent. Iron nails are no real issue and I enjoy hunting in an iron nail infested site, but it is the flat-iron or sheet-iron type trash [size=small](bottle caps, rusty tin, and other similar kinds of man-made iron)[/size] that is more difficult to audibly and visually classify.

That said, while these types of iron targets can produce a higher numeric VDI response due to the higher-conductive nature of the object, they are also a little easier to separate from a desired target [size=small](a coin, trade token, button, badge, and so forth)[/size] because the visual Target ID is usually more jumpy or inconsistent. Additionally, you CAN usually hear the presence of the Low-Tone Iron Audio on the approach, the departure, or both as the search coil is swept across a sheet-iron trash target. Sometimes you have to listen closely to discern this, but that 'goose-squawk' Iron Audio is there to some degree.

But your explanation is perfect. If I set the break of Di2 at 35 the idmask at 20 and iron volume at zero, I will still get numbers between 21-35 but no sound.

Generally that is correct. You might see some visual display of audibly Volume silenced targets that are above the Discrimination or ID Mask setting and below the 'Tone Break' setting.

And no sound and no readout from 0-20. (If iron volume at 5 I would get the same for 20 and below but get sound and numbers from 21-35)

You will hear an Iron Audio response from targets above the ID Mask [size=small](Discrimination)[/size] setting and at or below the 'Tone-Break' setting, if the Iron Volume level is set at a very low '01' to the full-strength '05.'

Id mask controls both sound and readout and iron volume controls any target sound between break and mask number.

Correct.

I do love it but with any detector, knowledge is power and the more I know of how I can set it up the better I will be.

Yes, quite true, and while learning a detector to its fullest, I believe we also need to teach ourselves to use as much Sensitivity/Gain as we can control, but also use the least amount of Discrimination [size=small](ID Mask)[/size] we can tolerate.

Please make any corrections to the above if I'm in error.

Okay, I did where I felt we needed to understand the serttings. I just hope I haven't now confused myself on this.

Monte

Haha thanks Monte.
I've been reading that I'd mask even as low as 3-4 on racer/Fors models has an effect on depth. I try to have a perfect mix of lowest disc with highest gain. Both effect each other. High high gain like 99 makes I'd mask of 1 really chattery but quiets at around 3. But the question is is it better to have no disc and the highest tolerable gain or highst gain with lowest possible idmask? Lol

 

[Monte]

Haha thanks Monte.
I've been reading that I'd mask even as low as 3-4 on racer/Fors models has an effect on depth. I try to have a perfect mix of lowest disc with highest gain. Both effect each other. High high gain like 99 makes I'd mask of 1 really chattery but quiets at around 3. But the question is is it better to have no disc and the highest tolerable gain or highst gain with lowest possible idmask? Lol

ID Mask [size=small](aka Discrimination)[/size] will have a negative effect with virtually all makes and models of metal detectors. generally, the more rejection used, the more targets are likely to be rejected or partially masked or completely masked. Many detectors have a struggling time to try and unmask nearby good targets to some challenging junk items, so the rule for success is:

• Use the best detector possible that has circuitry designed to provide decent Discrimination coupled with commendable favorable target response, and a quick-response and fast-recovery capability.

• Select the most efficient search coil type and size for the challenges you face.

• Make use of the settings you feel most comfortable with after selecting the search mode best suited for the challenges faced and targets you are seeking.

Each one of these calls for an individual's personal favorite, and in time we will each learn when we might need to make a judgment call to change things up. For example, by design the Makro Racer and Racer 2, and the Nokta FORS CoRe and FORS Relic were designed with a 3-Tone Discriminate mode. This function is not found on the FORS Gold Plus or Gold Racer since both of these models are mainly engineered for Gold Nugget Hunting but have Discrimination to help them, but each only have two choices of 2-Tone mode operation. This is a very good Discriminate mode for dealing with common iron trash such as nails or wire.

The FORS CoRe and Relic, like the Racer and Racer 2, benefit from having the 3-Tone mode selection which uses a more processed Tone ID circuitry that functions differently from the more modulated and VCO enhanced 2-Tone search modes. From experience using this type of Disc. mode through the years, and also paying attention to the manufacturer's suggestion that the 3-Tone mode is better designed for Coin & Jewelry Hunting. I concur, that is my favorite search mode when I am working most Urban Coin Hunting sites. Why? Because it handles very dense trash quite well, especially all the modern day trash we encounter.

But in many other types of older sites I work, such as ghost towns and homesteads and old railroad or other heavy-use locations, there is also an abundance of trash to deal with that is what I call 'complex iron' and not 'simple iron.' 'Simple Iron' includes nails and cut wire and other smaller-size and wire-type pieces of ferrous junk that is more easily rejected [size=small](Discriminated)[/size] and doesn't really cause a lot of annoyance. In those types of environments I do just fine using a 2-Tone search mode on any of my Makro or Nokta detectors.

But it is when I am searching sites with 'Complex Iron' that things get more challenging, and that includes dealing with rusty tin, miscellaneous odd-shaped iron debris to modern crimp-on bottle caps. This is when my preference is to use the 3-Tone mode on a Racer or Racer 2, CoRe or Relic because you can learn to decipher some of the audio suggestions, combined with the TID display response, to help better handle many really challenging sites.

A problem many people will perhaps eventually learn, is that they get 'hooked' on using the 3-Tone search mode and never spend the time to learn and appreciate the 2-Tone modes that are offered. One close-by ghost town I call Rippville, is an excellent example of knowing when to choose which search mode. Much of the dense part of where the town was is very littered with both Simple and Complex Iron, and it calls for a slower and more methodical sweep, using a smaller-size search coil, and you can be better served if you select the 3-Tone search mode.

But if you work out away on the fringes of the town or out in what is now pasture land, targets are much more sparse and the bulk of what you encounter in the way of trash is iron nails. Due to the Simple Iron that is well spaced, you can use a moderate-to-larger size search coil AND can be better served if you hunt in a 2-Tone search mode.

For each of us the manufacturers have provided ample search modes, adjustment functions and a nice selection of working search coils. They leave it up to us, although they do have excellent descriptions of how we should use settings and search modes in their User Manuals, to select the make and model we want, and pick the modes and settings we feel most comfortable with.

So, let me just state that my approach has usually been to use the least amount of Discrimination I can tolerate that works for me, and the highest Gain/Sensitivity setting I can use to deal with the site environment. On most of my detectors the Discrimination level is NOT at '00' or '01,' but at a setting just high enough to help deal with some problem ground mineral issues like hot rocks, but low enough to allow me to still hear iron nails. My Racer 2's are set at '03', the CoRe is at '10' and the Relic's are at '05' if I recall. If conditions are a problem I might reduce the Gain/Sensitivity a little at a time, if needed, to just barely handle a very dense target conditions.

I do not use a very high Disc. setting since I prefer to hear a lot of the iron present, but rely on Iron Volume to reduce the loudness of it, or just work in and around iron as best I can.

Monte

 

[dbado1]

WOW!
Great post. Great explanations. Much appreciated!
I would like to add some comments regarding my experiences with the Relic on this subject but I have to go to work. Later.
Thanks again you guys!


Dean

 

[Stoof-tabsallday]

I think this will end being a great thread for relic owners is explaining settings beyond what the manual says and how they affect each other.
Man I hope to get out with my relic this weekend. Finally got some rain. Everything is dead here.

 

[dbado1]

Excellent posts, Monte!

I've wanted to make a post called "Site Strategy". Basically, how and why a machine would be set up for a particular site's trash and target make up. You just did a magnificent job at explaining "site strategy" in your last post. Thank you!

I agree with you that using as little discrimination as possible is the way to go- for the reasons you have already described. One of the best features on the Relic is "Tone Break". It allows you to add "tonal discrimination" without "shackling" the machine with the ID Mask (discrimination) circuitry (in DI2). It allows you to decide, based on your site strategy (target/trash make up), where you want the machine to report, via tone, desirable targets versus non-desirable targets- not the factory.


Keith had mentioned sliding the second tone break in DI3 all the way back to the first factory preset tone break of 20 so that you essentially get two tones while hunting in DI3. Thereby, utilizing the different DI3 processing but with only two tones. Have you tried this?

Thanks again!

Dean