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Preset VS Manual GB question

Gopher

New member
I've read that manual ground balance machines can give you good depth when adjusted correctly, but if their adjusted incorrectly it can cause you to loose some depth. That being said, does this mean that preset machines don't usually run at their full potential for depth because their set for one general type of soil mineralization at the factory and when they get out into the world, there are so many different soil types and mineral contents that their GB is seldom set to match all those varying types of soil, hence the loss of depth of the preset.
It probably took me half an hour to type this question to get it to make any sense. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this this.
Thanks, Gopher
 
I think essentially you have it right. However, in soil that closely matches the preset setting, I would think that the preset machine would get the same depth as the manual if that was the only difference between them. That said, my experience with several different preset machines has been such that in most areas I've hunted they worked pretty well. For prospecting or heavy mineralization the manual or a true auto gb would definitely have the edge. Too, it is possible to have the preset machines set to match the soil you usually hunt, if needed. I've made some fairly deep finds in moderately mineralized soil with preset machines and feel they are fine for the average coin shooter and general detecting. My two bits.
HH
Bill
 
Below is part of an article by George Payne about manual and preset ground balance. George developed most of the features found on modern detectors, including manual and auto ground balance, motion detectors with preset ground balance, discrimination, depth meter, ID meter, and multi-tone audio. He also designed the first computerized detector. The article is a little technical but it explains the difference in manual and preset ground balance. If you want to read the entire article, it's on my website at http://www.jb-ms.com/Baron/gb.htm

A pure ground is a soil condition that reacts like it was pure ferrite. In other words a perfect magnetic condition where no electrical conduction (eddy currents) takes place. We can think of this as a soil that produces a signal in the detector with zero phase shift relative to the transmitted signal. This is considered our reference signal of zero phase to which all other signals can be referenced to. Of course the only real life object that produces this type of signal is pure ferrite. So ferrite becomes our reference target and produces what we call a pure "X" reactive signal.

Of course real ground conditions do not behave like pure ferrite. When subjected to a detectors magnetic field small currents begin to flow in the soil. This will cause the soil signal to be displaced slightly from that of pure ferrite. We call this difference a phase shift and define it to have an angle in degrees negative relative to pure ferrite. In addition, this phase shift produces a new signal in the detector which we call the "R" component signal. We can carry this analysis one more step. Using Trigonometry the ratio of the X signal to the R signal can be shown to be the actual measured phase of the ground.

All grounds have varying amounts of magnetic and conductive properties. Therefore, the ratio of the X or magnetic signal and R, the conductive signal, will vary from one location to another. However, the phase produced by this characteristic will always be negative relative to zero, the phase of pure ferrite.

From my experience most grounds produce a phase that falls somewhere between zero (ferrite) and a -5 degrees. Some highly magnetic soils can have a phase that is quite low, but it can never be zero. Once the phase exceeds several degrees the ground characteristics begin to fall into an area where it becomes more saline. This doesn't mean that its not magnetic. Its just that the R or conductive component of the ground becomes stronger in relation to the magnetic portion. Thus the phase becomes greater.

The manual ground adjustment works in this manner: When you position the Ground Adjust control to the phase of the target, in this case the ground, any up or down motion of the coil does not produce a corresponding change in the audio volume. For example, when you position the control to zero phase, and then move a piece of ferrite around near the coil, the audio volume will not change. In other words you have balanced out to the ferrite. However, if you now lower the coil to real ground the audio will increase in volume. Of course this indicates that you are not balanced to the ground. As you begin to turn the control counter clock wise the ground adjust control phase changes from zero to a more negative amount. Once you have reached the point of ground balance the control and ground phases match. Of course as the coil is moved to various locations the ground phase changes slightly and you must readjust the control for a neutral reaction. As you can see there is no one control phase position that matches every condition since the ground phase varies from one location to another.

The introduction of the Motion detector solved this problem.....sort of. In a Motion detector design you can calibrate the fixed ground adjust control phase to approximately +0.5 degrees and set the audio threshold for silent operation. If that is done the detector will appear not to respond to the ground. In reality it is responding. Its just that you don’t hear it since all ground reactions cause the audio to decrease in volume.

And since the audio is already silent you don’t hear anything. Remember I said that all real targets, which includes the ground, have a phase between zero and some negative value. The preset ground control phase of +0.5 degrees is in a location where no real targets ever exist. Therefore, you never have a condition where you are balanced to anything, least of all the ground. As you move the coil over the ground, the internal detector signals are continually being driven negative. Any weak positive target signal is easily over-ridden by the huge negative ground signal. Of course, if the target is close enough to the coil its positive signal can override the negative ground signal and you will hear the reaction in the audio. The greater the phase and strength of the negative ground signal the more it will mask the positive target signals. A manual ground balance design would avoid this since the operator can adjust the control for a (near) neutral reaction on the ground.

For fixed machines the phase error between the internal ground preset balance and the actual ground condition can be much more than slight. The internal preset is calibrated for +0.5 degrees. This is in an area where a real ground phase never occurs. The actual ground phase may be -2 or -3 degrees negative. That’s a huge difference, maybe 2.5 to 3.5 degrees. This much phase error will in effect cutoff several inches of detection depth.

When fixed ground balance (motion) machines first came out I was opposed to using this technique. I knew it was in some ways a trick into fooling the customer that there was no ground balance. The control was simply a fixed internal adjustment. However, the pressure to compete in the market place was enormous. So, I eventually gave up the argument and designed my first detector using a fixed ground balance the Big Bud.
 
Basically you're right, but many times you are comparing apples and oranges.

In my particular case the two MDs I have with manual ground balance don't seem to have the depth of the one that doesn't.

All three units run at around 10kHz and can share the same coils. I sold a Cibola with HOT electronics and it had preset GB. It went deeper than the two I have with Manual GB.

Those statements are true in about 99% of the soils I hunt in.

What sounds good on paper doesn't always hold true in life.

Go figure:stars:,
 
My thought is that all detectors should have manual GB of some sort and it should effect both non-motion and motion modes. There are some detectors that only have the GB affecting the non-motion mode. Even the amount of moisture (or lack thereof) in the ground can change how a detector responds at the same location.
 
[size=medium]Gopher, I read your post last evening, and most replies, then just got on the computer again this morning (12:50 AM Pacific Time) and thought I shouldn't let this go unqualified. It's a topic (Ground Balance) that seems to get confusing quite often and really needs to have more specific information given in an answer or question. Here are some examples:[/size]


[quote Gopher]I've read that manual ground balance machines can give you good depth when adjusted correctly, but if their adjusted incorrectly it can cause you to loose some depth.[/quote][size=medium]

 
Wow Monte!

That was quite a post!

Looks like you're ready for ACTION early in the morning!!!!

Think I better read that post a couple times.
 
i like manual ground balance the best is gives me the control. I've had detectors with automatic and to tell you the true, i don't trust them. but a new person starting out in this hobby, i like the preset. it allows them to learn without over whelming them. to be honest the preset detectors that i have detect really well. most of the time i believe comparable with the manual. unless your ground conditions are extreme i believe you wont see much of a difference. i believe when it comes to TID detectors the preset can have an advantage. over the automatic ground balance its more stable, over the manual if the person is not efficient in ground balancing, the preset again has a advantage. and again depends on ground conditions, but in mild to moderate i think they work just fine.
 
Overall I personally prefer manual ground balance as I got used to it.
Done incorrectly and you suffer.
I liked the fine multi-turn adjustments the most on some of the gold machines I used.
And I also use preset machines to but catch myself raising and lowering the coil then - oh yea - no manual ground balance.
Like driving an automatic or manual - I have both.
 
I'm withyou guys. I like having both.

The Silver is a go getter in it's element.

MGB is flexable. I like MGB with on the ED180 and pre-set on the ED120.

Just what I'm into now days.

HH,
 
Monte
Thanks for the info on GB, i have a Vaquero detector had it a few months,
The option on hold over was of grait interest to me, thought i was going bonkers with the Vaq when i first started GB the unit in some WA (West Australia soils), Came from an XTERRA 50, Feel the Vaq is the way to go ,so much iron in the soils here,

Thanks again for the Help
Dave (Holey Dollar)
 
Your post comes at a good time for me.

I've been experimenting with the manual ground balance enough now that your info has been able to soak through my thick skull:blink:

I'm ready to implement it in the field:detecting:

Thank you for taking time to share your knowledge with us.

Man that's good stuff!!!!
 
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