PI detecting, questions...

[spdnj]

I have been detecting off and on for a few years using Whites and now Minelabs. I own both land and water detectors. I am interested in playing around with PI detecting on the NJ beaches but do not really know much about it except for the fact that there is no discrimination available (in PI units). So here are some questions:
What are some good (mid to upper level) units to look at?
I have seen some people say they can distinguish iron from good targets, how is that done? It is my understanding PI is an all metal detector.

Any links to information would be appreciated, I want to start learning this facet of detecting.
All input welcome
Thanks!!!

 

[cjc]

Hi SPDNJ
For the extra punch and gold-sensitivity you get with a P.I. the junk you dig is incidental especially given that no VLF is going to give you 100% accuracy at it 's full depth. Also, you can get very accurate with a P.I. by learning to examine the size and shape of the responses you hear. As well, because gold and silver are such good conductors, the best targets can often be recognised because of how they "carry" to the surface in a narrow, defined field. This corresponds with the fact that gold is often the heaviest, deepest object, so deep targets with the above characteristics are the ones to focus on. As one seasoned hunter put it: "The big shallow ones are not likely to be the gold bars of your dreams." So operator skill is what substitutes for formal discrimination with a pulse. Whether or not this will be effective depends on how much trash the site has. As well, using pulse machines places a greater emphasis upon site-reading---doing your digging at locations or parts of a location where this kind of "inclusive" digging has the best chance of sucess.
The Whites Dual Field is a nice pulse and also gives a lot of target information in the audio. As well it has a gain control so it's power can be turned up, or down to suit conditons. The P.I. pro is also the choice of many seasoned hunters.
A higher-end choice is the Aquasearch which is optimised for gold and can be tuned to run smoothly in about any conditons. This detector, although costing more is about as good as they get.
Hope this helps.
clive (clivesgoldpagehome)

 

[therover]

Some beaches are tough. Too much iron...nails, bits of fencing, wire, etc. But now, the way the beaches are sanded in, that's what I am using most since there isn't much in the way of anything.

You will not be able to hunt the dry sand much with it, but wet sand and in the water, the trash is less. Not sure if you plan to water hunt, and if so, any of the top brand PI's will be good to use.

The Whites Dual field has a big coil, but I hear it pin points pretty well. That is a big plus. I had the Detector Pro PI with both the 11 and 8 inch coils, and used the 8 inch coil most of the time since I could not for the life of me pin point with the 11 inch. I was digging monster holes.

I am now using a Goldquest SS V2 with a 10 inch coil. This machine is awesome. Pin points very well, the most stable PI I have used. Problem is it is not water proof, so I only use it in wet sand and suds. Finds lower conductive targets deep. I have had it only about a month and with the conditions, have not found any gold yet, but it will come.

If you want to talk about hunting the NJ beaches with the PI you can PM me.

John

 

[docguin]

I have an Infinium. It is the deepest hunting detector I ever had and will not walk over even a small gold ring without sounding hard. Despite manufacturers claims it has no effective discrimination and everything will have to be dug. It is a waterproof unit and hipmounts easily which makes it a more comfortable unit to wade with. Awesome in bad soil, but be prepared to dig. It is also quite sensitive to small targets so you will dig a lot.

If I knew I would stay out of the water, I would be looking at the new White's TDI. That looks like a killer PI to me, and has the closest thing to real discrimination available right now in a PI. There is some talk they may come out with a waterproof version, if they do I will get one for sure. I sent an email to White's asking if the dual field would beat the Infinium, they never answered.

Careful what you wish for with those better quality PI detectors. The Infinium hit a silver dime at 16" one day in the water. It takes some work to dig that deep in fine sand underwater. Even good sites will have a lot of bobby pins and barrettes to dig, if there are nails there forget it. I tend to prefer PI out in deeper water where there is less trash, close to shore or on the beach they can be backbreaking work. The Infinium is sensitive to targets small enough to go through the holes in my scoop, there tends to be more of those kinds of targets close to shore and they can be quite frustrating.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[John-Edmonton]

"The Infinium does have some discrimination characteristics. It's not like an accumulative type or notch found on VLF type detectors. In fact, the Infinium is entirely different then any other type of detector. What the Infinium can do as far as discrimination is concerned, is give a tone HIGH-LOW for iron, aluminum and gold. It also gives off a LOW-HIGH signal for silver, copper and again iron. So iron and other junk is always the wild card in both types of signals, as it is a Pulse Induction type of detector. However, the Infinium also comes with an iron check, which again helps with getting a better probability of what type (iron or not?) target it is. Now the Infinium has a bit of a learning curve, and if you are new to metal detecting and lack basic theory on how the machines operate, don't buy one. It will be a lesson in frustration for you.

Now having said that, other little techniques are on your learning curve to be discovered. For instance, the smoothness/roughness of the tone gives a hint as to whether it is an iron rusted target or not. The "Sustain" length of time that the Infinium gives after reading a target gives you a hint as to its size. The Infinium gives a double bleep on bobby pins and wire. So......if you only want to dig gold, only dig the HIGH-LOW signals. That removes a lot of signals that you can leave in the ground. Also, use the iron check, which even cuts out more targets. If you want to dig mostly coins, including old deep silver, dig only the LOW-HIGH signals. Again....use the iron check.

Is the Infinium the holy grail of detectors? No it isn't. It's a PI and loves iron, like all PI's. Iron can not be discriminated out like a VLF detector. But it goes DEEP! It must be ground balanced and a proper frequency must be picked for maximum performance. I have pulled rings out at over 14 inches with a nice strong signal. It is one of (if not the) deepest machines available. It was designed to get gold in some of the highest mineralized soils in the world. It works in all salt water/beach environments and is water proof too.

Is it a good coin shooter? Perhaps, but only in areas where there are few targets. It's not practical for park environments, as it picks up all metals, even those that your VLF will miss. I have had some success using it in the woods, digging only the LOW-HIGH signals. It should also perform well at relic hunting too.

Where it worked best for me was in hunted out beaches where most of the targets had been removed. The best beach hunters dig ALL targets. The Infinium isn't for everyone, and is not a do it all detector. But if you give it the time it deserves to learn it properly, and use it in its proper environment, it is a killer. I have my best gold ring year ever in 15 years using this machine."

John

 

[spdnj]

Thanks for all of the great responses everyone. I am trying to read up as much as I can on this stuff. I really want to see exactly how a PI detector works and sounds. I have never seen one in action. After going through the learning curve of the Minelabs I think I can handle that part of it but from what I can tell the PI's are not for everyone.

 

[Bence]

Just my 5 cents worth,
If you're only hunting for gold rings and some coins you can leave junk behind like there's no tommorrow, that is whith the Infinium. Rings and coins give a nice consistant signal, then you can choose if you want to dig the low tone targets as well. The only problem I have is with bottle tops, but in the water they're not too bad. If they ban people drinking on the beach we would be laughing. Most odd shaped targets will give a wierd or a double signal, which won't be rings unless they're right on the surface. Bobby pins and other elongated items give a double signal one way and a single signal the other way. If you choose not to dig odd signals you could be missing out on trinkets and other targets that might be valuable that aren't rings.

Then there's reverse discrim, there's a trick to it and I'm still learning. Needless to say I don't rely on it, but if I get a low tone in reverse discrim then I can be fairly sure it's iron- so far in my learning.

One other thing,
so far I haven't heard of any VLF's that you can use mono coils with (there might be some out there, I just haven't heard of them). Some, like the White's BHID, use consentric coils I understand? That would be exellent, though I preffer mono's. That's enough right there.

 

[docguin]

I find the Infinium's discrimination characteristics cannot be trusted to be accurate, the iron check will not reliably work at identifying iron and is not trustworthy. The high-low and low-high tones are not always correct either. But, after you have used it a while some of the junk targets can be passed over with confidence. You have to dig quite a few of them to get a feel for it. It does give that double bleep on some bobby pins, some wire, some gold chains and odd jewelry things. Short clipped irregular sounds are usually junk, or junk is near a good target. I find it better not to rely on the so called discrimination, and dig everything with a good hard round tone, and even some of the bad ones just to be sure. I get a lot of junk in the bag at the end of the day, but it misses darn little gold.

John is quite right about the learning curve, the signals are different than any other detector. It is pretty simple to operate, just getting the sounds right can be a challenge. It is a fact that this thing hits gold deep. It hits gold rings very hard, very deep, and very clear. I never had it give a weak or clipped signal on a gold ring, even small toe rings hit good and clear. Silver too.

If you have mastered the Minelabs, this is not a difficult detector to learn. Ground balancing is easy. You will dig a lot more junk than with a Minelab, but if you get to a place where you can use it nothing will beat it. I have an Excalibur and a CZ-20 in addition to the Infinium. For me, this is the one to use when the Minelab is not getting signals because the sand is too deep or bottom conditions are poor. I would not want this to be my only water detector though, just my personal opinion. I definitely would not like to use it up on the beach.

 

[harvdog42]

In my humble opinion...if the beach you are hunting is not loaded with iron a P.I. is the way to go. I hunt the wet sand mostly so the iron that I do find is usefull in that it acts as a sort of indicator as to wether or not I'm in an area that has heavy targets. However, the other day I was at a beach that was so loaded with iron that I had to walk back to the car to get my backup VLF so that I could discriminate out some of the iron otherwise I would have gone bonkers.

I had an infinium for awhile and loved the hi-low, low- high tones but found it to be a little difficult to tune so that I wouldn't get false signals. I'm the kind of guy that likes simplicity. I now hunt with a Tesoro Sand Shark P.I and am very happy with it. It is a turn on and go unit. I hunt with an 8" coil so I may not be getting the depth that some of the other units get but it is very light and easy to swing for along time. (hip mount) You can hear the double blip on iron very easily with this unit. People will tell you that the double blip is a double edged sword however in that the target may still be something of value. I usually dig the double blips...but not always.

James

 

[spdnj]

Question: I hope people read this at the end of this thread to answer:
Should dry sand be avoided with PI's?

Thanks again everyone!!!

 

[docguin]

I do not find dry sand to be bad with a PI just because it is dry sand. A PI will work as well there as anywhere else. The best gold detectors used in the deserts and hills are PI.

The bad thing about dry sand at beaches is all the trash you will have to dig. Beaches that get hunted hard with good VLF detectors will leave the iron trash and the really deep targets. It is lower percentage hunting, more trash and fewer good targets and you will dig deeper. This translates into time and time is finite. You only have so many hours in a day and have to decide how you wish to spend them. The reason you do not see SDs and GPXs at the beach is that it is not a cost effective use of time at most beaches.

 

[bubber]

Will these PI detectors pick up on hot rocks? Where I detect, they are every few inches.

 

[therover]

There is a beach were there are tons of them here in NJ and my GoldQuest does not sound off on them at all. I cannot use certain VLF machines on this beach unless I get a hot rock and manually ground balance to it. My CZ6a and X5 hits these hot rocks like they are coins if I do not GB them out....the PI just purrs along. I do have to adjust the SAT speed on the unit to make it run really smooth, or some of the bigger ones will give a slight rise in threshold, but not the sound of a shallow or mid-range target nor the sound of a diggable target.

On another note...my HH PI did not sound off on these hot rocks either when I had it.

 

[tvr]

In my limited time with my Sand Shark, I liked it in dry sand as well as getting into the water. I pretty much knew when I was digging a tent stake; and was pleasantly surprised with a nice silver ring from the dry sand. I am looking forward to more beach time with the Sand Shark this year.

 

[TNBob]

Guys< I have never used a PI detector on the beach, only a Minelab Excal and a Tesoro VLFs. All this discussion makes me want to try a PI on the beach for those elusive deep targets such as gold rings and coins. I talked to a dealer that said some guys are using the Minelab GPX on the beaches and finding tons of gold and silver with them but how deep do we really need to go? Those machines are so expensive and not waterproof. I am interested in finding gold rings and coins on hard hunted beaches and in the water of course so maybe an Infinium is the best choice for a thrid detector. How deep have you found rings with the Infinium? What about coins? Sounds very deep.
Bob

 

[spdnj]

That's what prompted me down this road. Here is how I see it, and keep in mind I still don't have a PI detector; it will not always be the best detector to use. In some locations it will actually be more of a hassle if there is a ton of iron or trash. You still need to be in a location that has items to be found. There is a learning curve to be productive with one.
With all that said it will go deeper than the vlf detectors and it will see smaller worthwhile objects such as earrings and thin chains without charms or that are not balled up. Here in NJ the beaches have a tendency to get sanded in where I can go out with a standard vlf and spend a few hours detecting and be lucky to find half a dozen signals to dig including trash. I want to get one for these for those times, also for salt water hunting. You can pick one up for about 1K, and as many have said before that is one good find from paying for itself.
They sound like they are not for everyone. You lose the ability of having an idea what is in the ground (quarter, nickel, pull tab or tinfoil signal). They will require much more digging because of that, also because of how deep they go. but that's what this hobby is about to me. I still have a few good years of endless digging in me soooooo, I'm gonna give it a try.
As docguin said above: "I would not want this to be my only water detector..." I think this is an important thing to consider with one. I do expect to come across beaches where it will be useless, in that case the excal or etrac will be on standby. I will let you know

 

[docguin]

Nickels, pull tabs, and foil have to be dug anyway, They are right there in the zone with gold jewelry, even with the E-Trac you will need to dig those. What will drive you crazy with a PI is iron. For your extra digging you get extra depth and sensitivity to gold. Some sites are worth it and some are not in my view.

I met a man that hunts water with an old Garrett Sea hunter. He will not even consider using anything but a PI, and not a new one either. I think that old antique might be one of the first Sea Hunters ever made. He digs everything. Yes everything. Every - last - thing. You do not want to go to a beach he has been to. There are others like him out there, not many, but they are out there. These people make some good finds and often find what others miss or pass over. I almost think they like a VLF to make a pass over to get the clad out of the way. Almost all ground is virgin ground to them, they hunt on a whole other level.

My point is that there are those who think a PI is absolutely always the best detector to use. They make good finds with that dogged determination, and you cannot be argue with success.

For the waterproof machines, the Infinium is top of the line at the moment. For dry sand beach, I might look real hard at the White's TDI. If they ever come out with a waterproof TDI, I would sell my CZ-20 to buy it, but not my Excalibur. For my money, a PI gets it's best return in the water at a beach. My two cents.

 

[TNBob]

My question is how do you exactly ground balance it? Is it the standard up and down several times and adjust like on Minelab PIs or does it automatically ground balance with a couple of bounces? Also, They claim you get discrimination, but will it actually discriminate out large iron objects like tin cans or large pieces of metal down deep. How do you actually pick a frequency or tune it to the optimal frequency? Doesnt it run like 96 different frequencies at the same time?
Bob

 

[spdnj]

hey tnbob
If you go to youtube and do a search for infinium you can actually view the video that comes with the detector. it is broken into 3 parts though it is not one video. very interesting to watch if you do not know anything about it

 

[docguin]

Actually you can ground balance it both ways. Go to AK Mining's site and read the info Steve Herschbach put up on the Infinium. He takes the mystery out of it, and he makes it simple. Also download the manual from the Garrett site, that may be useful. Steve posts quite often in the PI forum and is the guy to ask about Infiniums.

You will not be able to discriminate out large metal, tin cans, or much of anything with an Infinium. There are those who trust the tone ID and abiility to identify iron with this machine, but I am not one of them. I have seen it be wrong too many times. I look for good hard tones and dig. I will pass on some ragged tones and clipped signals at some sites.

You will dig deep and dig often with these, but you won't leave much for a VLF. You also will not cover as much ground as a VLF because you spend more time digging, but the ground you do cover will be covered deeper and more thoroughly.

Look at it this way. If you are willing to do the work, a good PI will give you access to a couple inches of ground not available to most VLF machines and will be more sensitive to gold than most VLF machines through the entire bottom profile. I said a good PI, not a cheap one. The price you pay for the added capability is near total lack of discrimination. For me, some places are worth it and some are not. For others all places are worth it, for yet others no place is worth it. You will need to decide for yourself and the only way to know for sure is to try it.