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Old gun

7centsworth

Well-known member
A friend of mine has this old muzzle loader that was passed down to him . We have both been trying to find out who made it and how old it is and the value of the gun. He is not going to sale it or anything he just wants to know what he has. We have been searcing for information on this gun for a little over a year and can not come up with anything. It says M dickson on one side and has what looks like a name on top of the barrel. Any and all information is and will be aprreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
That is a kentucky rifle. Maybe a "James J. Gilmore and Moses Dickson" , Louisville Kentucky 1848-1860.
More pics would help if possible , Bottom and side of front half .
 
Thanks for all th information. But I still can not find an exact match.
 
You may never find an exact match to a 1840 gun from a small gunshop . But thats good as long as you can figure out who made it.
The signiture on the barrel is most likely the maker of the rifle . Would be nice to figure out what that signiture is.
The name on the lockplate could be the maker of the rifle or the maker of the lock or the seller. or all three.
I think at least the lock is a Moses Dickson or was sold by him , even though most of the M. Dickson guns you see are back action locks and yours is not.
 
Hey 7centsworth I have the exact same rifle. I actually started some research tonight and I can't find much about it. In fact it led me here an I registered just so I could get to speak with you about this rifle. Lol. I am in Ky as well. Around elizabethtown. Please email me so we can talk about our rifles and perhaps we can help each other find more info! My email is gatorguy2919@yahoo.com. Thanks look forward to hearing from you!
 
Machavoc said:
Hey 7centsworth I have the exact same rifle. I actually started some research tonight and I can't find much about it. In fact it led me here an I registered just so I could get to speak with you about this rifle. Lol. I am in Ky as well. Around elizabethtown. Please email me so we can talk about our rifles and perhaps we can help each other find more info! My email is gatorguy2919@yahoo.com. Thanks look forward to hearing from you!

Can you read any markings on your rifle other than M. dickson.?
Can you post some pictures?
 
7centsworth, I also have several rifles by this exact maker. I would enjoy swapping photos and information with you...and getting better pictures of your friend's rifle. I'd like to see the back side of the butt on this rifle, and a couple of other details. I'd be glad to share photos of both earlier and later rifles by this maker if you have an interest. I live up in Indiana, but do a lot of collecting down in Kentucky. Shelby Gallien @ sgallien@comcast.net
 
It is a buddy of mines gun. But I will give him your information.
 
7centsworth, Thank you for passing my information along; hope I get a chance to see more of his rifle, and if so will provide your friend with good information about it and other rifles by the same maker. Shelby Gallien
 
Tanselman said:
7centsworth, Thank you for passing my information along; hope I get a chance to see more of his rifle, and if so will provide your friend with good information about it and other rifles by the same maker. Shelby Gallien

So how about providing some good information and photos here?
 
The rifle was built by Jacob Rizer of Bardstown, KY (1785-1877). This rifle has always been percussion and dates to about 1840, possibly a few years later. If we could see the back side of the butt, lock bolt washer, and tang, we could be more sure of the age. His better known rifles are more elaborate with full patchboxes and at times silver inlay work; this particular rifle would be a "working rifle" with minimal decoration, made for the common man, yet nicely stocked. Rizer started working in Bardstown in 1806, was best known for his partnership with David Weller in the 1815-1826 period when his finest rifles were made, later worked with his brother Matthias Rizer in the 1836-1839 era. Several rifles marked J & M Rizer are known, and while of a later style, have perhaps the most elaborate patchboxes ever used on Rizer guns. A "trademark" of most Rizer guns is his chip carved design on the back side of the gun running along the tall edge of the butt plate. It usually occurs on both his finer guns, as well as his plainer working guns such as the one above, thus my interest in seeing the back side of the gun.

For pictures of Rizer rifles, see the article I wrote for Muzzle Blasts magazine back in September of 2004 titled "The Bardstown Rifles, Kentuckys Crown Jewels." A number of my rifles are pictured there. If you can wait a few months longer, I have an extensive new reference book, in two large volumes and well illustrated, titled "Kentucky Gunmakers." Vol. I is Kentucky's gunmaking history with many illustrations, outlines the various gunmaking schools within Kentucky, and the major gunmakers in each school. Rizer is well covered and illustrated in the volume. Volume II has bout 1100 biographies of early gunmakers who worked in Kentucky during the muzzle loading era. The book/s will be available about the first of the new year.

I am currently photographing and recording (taking key dimensions, etc.) additional Kentucky guns as they "pop up" such as the gun above, in the hopes that in a couple of years there may be enough new information to add a third volume to Kentucky Gunmakers...thus the request to see more of the gun and possibly re-photograph it myself more professionally in the future. Shelby Gallien
 
Shelby, Thanks for all the info and ID of The maker.
Do you know who the M.dickson on the lockplate is?

Here is a small article you may find interesting, written by Tom Pike who lived and owned a museum a couple miles from me.
I just like anyone interested in these old muzzle loaders to see it.
I wish him and his collection were still here.
His muesum building is still there but tom is gone and his collection split up.


http://www.aolrc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/vol-xi-no-2-aug-1989.pdf

A little about Tom and his museum.
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles_archive/articles/sep02/tusc0902.htm
 
Thanks for the info. I gave my friend your info a couple of days ago.
 
I am very familiar with Tom Pike, bid against him a couple of times at auctions...if he wanted a rifle, you could never outbid him at a live auction...he just kept outbidding you. He had a golden age Cumberland, MD, flintlock rifle made by George Rizer (trainer of Jacob Rizer of KY) that I tried to buy a couple of times, but no luck. I've been an AOLRC member for many years, enjoy the Ohio guys, and have handled a number of Ohio guns over the yearsl...particularly Humbarger rifles which I have helped get back to Humbarger family members in Ohio. As to the lock on the posted rifle, it came from the large shop of Moses Dickson in Louisville. Dickson was perhaps Louisville's finest late flint/early percussion gunsmith, later worked with James Gilmore, and made very high quality firearms. He also imported much of his hardware from back east, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, etc., shipped down the Ohio River to Louisville. He not only ran perhaps the largest gun store in Louisville, but also sold gunsmith supplies to many local gunsmiths...including this lock plate. I have a dated 1837 Bardstown rifle by Rizer with a "M. Dickson" lock in it. Dickson's shop sold quality goods, so quality gunmakers bought many of their parts there, particularly in the percusison years...thus you see his locks on Rizer rifles, and other good KY guns. Dickson began working in Louisville about 1821, and continued working until his death in December of 1863. About 1835 James J. Gilmore joined his firm, and there are Dickson & Gilmore rifles out there, but also individually signed guns by both men during their partnership period. Both were top quality makers. While unproven, I strongly suspect that Gilmore was an early apprentice of Dickson, and stayed on to work as a partner. In later years, it appears that Dickson spent more time growing his business into a large gun and hardware store, and Gilmore spent most of his time overseeing the building of the Dickson & Gilmore guns they sold...along with imported English guns which they stamped with their mark before re-selling in their shop.

7centsworth...since your friend exposed his rifle on this site, he will be contacted by interested parties. He needs to know that he must get multiple opinions as to the value of his rifle if he ever decides to sell/move the gun...never take a single appraisal as gospel. Different "experts" vaule guns differently, so he needs different opinions to know its true value. I am always glad to appraise a KY-made gun, which I have specialized in for many years, if the owner contacts me privately off line by e-mail at sgallien@comcast.net. He has a decent rifle by a good maker, so he needs to be careful with it. But to appraise it, we must see the back side as well as the front, know of any damage or alterations, barrel lenght and bore size, etc. Shelby Gallien
 
I just watched an old episode of to "To Tell the Truth" and Tom Pike was a contestant... Just thought I'd throw that in there... I know it's an old post.
Gerry
 
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