OK, This Guy Who PMed Me Needs Some Convincing From You Guys That Slow Is The Key To Depth On The Sovereign, Because That's What He Wants In A Machine

[Critterhunter]

I told him I still go back and fourth on the issue, but that most of the old time Sovereign users say slow is the key to maximum depth. He wants a machine that he can work slow for max depth and sniffing between targets, so I told him that I'd ask you guys in this forum who are very pro-slow on the swing speed to insure max depth to chime in so he can see what you guys have to say. As for me, I lean that way myself. Even on the FBS machines most guys say you need to crawl along for max depth and separation. Some say 4 seconds per sweep, which admittedly for me is even slower than I normally go when making an effort to go real slow. I need to try that slow of a crawl at some of my known deep coin sites and see what happens.

I'm inclined to put my money on the slow thing for best depth on these BBS and FBS machines because that's what most say. I just still go back and fourth a little on that because I seem to sometimes get harder hits on deep stuff by increasing my sweep speed a bit. But, that's not to say that going slow might not see deeper than that, even if I'm getting a bit harder hit (still not sure anyway...need to compare that in the field more) at a speed approaching medium or so maybe.

I do know though and have read numerous times in the past that if you ride the edge of sensitivity then for sure you need to crawl for best depth, but I have found (as I've read others say) that if I'm riding sensitivity real low, like say 2PM or lower, well below max stable, that the machine either seems to want a faster sweep speed, or at least allows you to sweep faster without the threshold dropping out. I'm not the first one who's said that so it must be true for some of us at least.

But the main point is...This guy wants to know if he can crawl along and still get max depth. He seen a video that seemed to show that you needed a faster sweep to hit the deeper stuff. I told him most say that's the odd exception to the rule for most Sovereign guys, because almost in uniformity most of the seasoned users say "slow" is the word if you want that deep stuff. So if you want chime in and tell this guy that if he wants a slow sweep to pull the deepest stuff that this machine is probably what he's looking for.

I'm inclined to believe that myself too. I just haven't done enough tests in the field to shore that opinion up for myself, but in my defense I *DO* swing slow with my Sovereign 99.9% of the time. And I mean real slow. Just not 4 seconds per sweep slow. But then again I don't do wide sweeps. Just right in front of my two feet, as I feel swinging wide leads to sloppy coil control and also is more wear and tear on you. Keeping the coil right in front of my feet when land hunting I can keep my back and arm straight and not be reaching or bending. The only time I sweep wider is when scouting the woods or the beach looking for any signal.

 

[Critterhunter]

I should add for this guy, that at least everybody agrees on this...That when you do come across a super deep signal, you need to wiggle or do real short somewhat fast(er) or "fast-ish" short sweeping or wiggles over it to draw the best ID and tone from it. That is not a problem with isolating targets from others though, because the 10" Tornado is a excellent coil which will separate stuff right next to each other very well, and the machine seems to pick up it's "speed" when it's in that wiggling "zone" or mode. It seems to isolate the ground signal and fastly react to the target you are hoving over as you wiggle. I can easily isolate and wiggle over coins right up near junk doing that. When doing your general slow sweep hunting long sweep, you'll probably first catch wind of a hint of a high tone mixed in that mixed audio signal. So then you just hover right over that high tone where you think you heard it and wiggle right there and see if a high tone and ID will come out of it. Even with no meter you'll still be able to hear the tone climb and hint to being silver or such, but if you have a meter you can see the numbers as they climb too.

Having to wiggle or short sweep on deep stuff is not unique to the BBS machines. Many machines I owned required this to enhance a deep signal, such as my QXT. It gets you that last little bit of extreme depth out of a target so you can see just how high it's tone and ID will climb, or just what it stays at. If it climbs to say 158 or something and locks then that's what it's ID is. But if it keeps trying to climb and reach or lock on to 180 then it could be a deep coin.

 

[Critterhunter]

All these forums for all the machines are pretty much slowed to a crawl due to the weather, so I'll try to dig up some threads for you here in a bit and post what others have to say. I'm not the best person to talk to on this subject because I'm still going back and fourth on it, but largely others agree that super slow is the key to maximum depth on all the Minelabs (FBS and BBS). I tend to believe that is true, and even if it's not in my soil I'm not talking about a fast swing giving more depth. What we call "fast" on a Minelab is more like below medium probably on other machines. It's just a question of just how slow that slow needs to be for some in their opinion. For me it's what I would call approaching a medium speed that *seems* to hit harder at depth, but that doesn't mean it IS deeper than a crawl. I haven't done enough playing with that in the field to judge for sure one way or another, and regardless I still swing pretty slow. It's just that I don't think I'm doing 4 seconds or more per sweep that some say derives maximum depth for them. That's the thing I'm still trying to work out for myself *in my soil*.

 

[Critterhunter]

This should keep you busy reading for a while. Keep in mind MOST Sovereign (and even Etrac/Explorer users for that matter) say that a super slow sweep speed is the key for maximum depth. In most soils that must be the case then. If I decide down the road that my soil wants a somewhat faster sweep for max depth, that should be considered a special circumstance for only some maybe, and also when I say "faster" I'm still talking probably talking approaching only about what others would call a medium speed on other machines. What counts as slow or medium is highly subjective, so keep that in mind. I would tell you to do your own testing in the field. Next time you find a deep target try a general long sweep over it at slower and faster speeds and see which seems to hit best. But that doesn't necessarily mean the speed that gives the hardest hit is the speed that will give you the deepest hit. Most say super slow and listen for any change in the threshold, then you wiggle over that spot and see what comes out of it.

Also, a few of these threads I threw my two cents in on were when I was using the 15x12. I mention that I liked to calibrate sensitivity by burying a coin and then playing with sensitivity for best "hit" and easiest ID when wiggling over it. The 15x12 *in my soil* was a special case I think, in that it was soaking in too much of my ground matrix and so prefered a lower than max stable sensitivity setting to derive best depth (or at least better target signal without degrading it). I've since come to belive that the 10" Tornado and my 12x10 want you to ride right at the edge of sensitivity for maximum depth. In fact, I tend to ride it just a hair unstable, but not so much that the threshold is dropping out so much that it might cause me to ignore a deep target. There is a fine line there of putting up with a little instability to gain a bit more depth and riding it so high that you might ignore a deep target as a false, or miss it because the threshold is nulling out on the sensitivity being too high.

You might want to grid a small area with a super crawl of a sweep speed, then re-grid from the same direction using a somewhat faster one approaching what you might call medium. If you hit a super deep target then switch to the other speed with a long general hunting sweep over it and see which seems to hit it better. You need to grid the spot with two different sweep speeds though so you can really judge, because obviously if one speed (super slow say) versus another (something you might call medium) is not going to hit on the deepest of targets, then the other speed when you re-grid it will, and only then will you see which is better for your soil by then trying both over the deep target. One may find it while the other won't, thus the importance of re-hunting both ways and then comparing on each signal found.

I think you are going to find though that slow is the word. For sure if you ride the edge of sensitivity you need to crawl along, and listen for any change in the treshold. Only after finding that will you wiggle or short sweep to get the best ID and tone out of a super deep target. But this wiggling/short sweeping should NOT be your judge of your general hunting speed while long sweeping, because the two are very different. When comparing targets at depth to gage proper sweep speed, you need to long sweep over them at those speeds to judge them, because the wiggle/short sweep deal does indeed prefer a faster sweep.

Done all I can do here, so if any more questions post it or shoot me another PM and I'll address it here for you or try to dig up what others have to say on the matter. There are only a few of us who still question the sweep speed thing and haven't decided for ourselves yet, so you are better to listen to others who mostly agree that slow is the word. That's the reason for these links I'm posting for you...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,562776,562800#msg-562800

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1671412,1671565#msg-1671565

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1718228,1719185#msg-1719185

Some sensitivity level/sweep speed related debate...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1276442,1277508#msg-1277508

Some sweep speed and all metal versus discrimination debate on which is deeper too...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,428051,428575#msg-428575

 

[Rick(ND)]

Much of this we learn from experience as far as what speed to sweep at and at where. Now in a area where coins are not deep and not much trash you can go faster as super slow will miss a lot as it is adjusting the threshold as soon as it starts seeing a target, but if there is a lot of trash you will go more of a med speed. Now if the area is older you will want to go a little slower and try to hear those weaker signals which will be smaller signals. Now for the area where you know there is super deep coins and been gone over by everyone and their Friends and want to deeper coins and other good items I find you have to go super slow and listen real close to tone changes.
We know that as a coin is deeper the signals get smaller also and some may only be a tone change that you can only hear going slow, if not super slow the Sovereign can not get a chance to see this target. Once you get that weak and small signal is where doing the wiggle over just that small area can make this target gain in signal as I feel it is building up the signal as it don't have time to completely go back to a normal threshold. A example would be like a hand air pump on a tire that has a leak in it as slow pump you lose as much as you pump in, but a faster pump you will gain more then you lose. I feel the Sovereign has to see the target first and this is only done going super slow, but once you know where it is you go to the faster swing over only that small area and it will gain on the signal like the air pump on a tire with a nail in it, go slow and don't gain, go a little faster and you will gain.
This is one of the many things a person learns from experience with the Sovereign as you will see. I have gotten coins out of old parks my Friends with the same model Sovereigns miss and after I find one they still cant hear it until I tell them to go real slow and try to listen to every signal they hear on the swing of the coil, now speed it up a little and these same signals are now gone.I will say it takes a while to get anyplace with the super slow swing, so where I use it mostly is in well worked old parks others claimed is clean out. I also slow way down if I get a lot of nulling so it is almost no threshold on each swing of the coil as I want to hear all that is close to a disc out items like iron with the Sovereign.
Some of these real deep coins will not ID correctly being so deep and the Sovereign can not get a good look at therm. These are the ones we hear and are repeatable when going over them just right and being so deep the tone ID seems to want to try to climb when you swing the coil just right along with the meter ID and may hit the correct ID or close to it and even some much lower, but you can tell they want to try to increase, but just can make it.The best I could get on a deep merc dime was 135 on a 180 meter, but could tell it wanted to get better, but not enough time for it too as it was so deep,

Rick

 

[Critterhunter]

Rick, thanks for posting that for him.

 

[Critterhunter]

This video here, which I think (?) is by Ism judging by the homemade meter I can see in the video, seems to show a distinct opposite of sweeping slow being the best for a target at depth? While when he crawls that seems a fair bit slower than most recommend, it never the less does raise some interesting questions. My theory on it going against the norm is this-

Sensitivity was set well lower than max stable, because some of us find the lower you set it that faster the machine seems to want you to sweep to hit targets at depth (meaning if set well below max stable).

Or, you've got soil that is either

A)- Lacking minerals at all, as Minelabs seems to want some form of any kind (even low) mineralization to "load" the ground signal properly. That's why all Minelabs often don't do well in air tests (sometimes). Luckily most land in the US has form extent of mineralization if that's the case. It's rare to have neutral soil unless it's virgin black topsoil. I have some like that, but even many of those sites are still mineralized. I have read that Minelabs don't get the depth in neutral soil that they do in low or high minerals.

Or B)- Containing some for of weird mineralization that requires a faster sweep speed to overcome? I doubt this though, because I've always read (and experienced myself) that the higher the minerals the slower you need to swing so the machine can compensate for the slightly changing ground signal as you sweep.

I believe it's more than likely the sensitivity thing. I noticed in the video he had the sensitivity set at 12PM and was using the 12x10 coil. By my experience with the 12x10, even in my mineralized sites, rarely do I need to run sensitivity that low with the 12x10. In fact, more often than not it's set at full max sensitivity (all the way left before clicking into Auto) and is still stable as a rock. If you're sensitivity could be turned higher than 12PM, like say 10PM or higher, then chances are the machine is showing the low sensitivity thing that I have even experienced where it seems to want a somewhat faster sweep speed.

More tests are in order for me, that's for sure, but I wanted to post this to get some input from Ron, Rick, and others on what they think of this video, and also hear from whoever made it...Which I think was Ism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9nq9kyE894&feature=player_embedded

 

[Rick(ND)]

OK,

This is my idea of what is happening. First this is not a deep target as it lock on to 180 too easy and by going slow on a shallow target could be retuning the threshold as fast as it is seeing it. this is why at a faster sweep speed he is able to pick it up and don't when going slow as it is being reset as fast as he sees it as it is such a strong signal. Now on the deeper and weaker signal the slow will see the target better while fast will not even see the target at all as it don't have time to see it and report on it so you just missed it. Going slow to find it, then swing back and forth over just that small signal will amplify when swing back and forth over it and trying to get to get the best signal and meter reading.

Rick

 

[Critterhunter]

Rick, makes sense and could very well be what's going on there in that video. Maybe a strong shallow signal is being ignored as part of the ground signal when you crawl super slow like he was doing? Much slower than most people even recommend for the proper speed to get max depth, although I know you or Ron have found super deep stuff might only sound off it you go super slow like that at some sites I think.

 

[Buried Crap NJ]

I hope this is what you mean by convincing him. The target pictured was walked over for more than 1 hour by another seasoned hunter gridding with n Excal Rushing his hunt to cover more ground. He always does this and always complaines that ther are too many new beach hunter stealing all the gold. Now by all means he just could have missed the target, it happens. I clearly saw three sets of his foot prints by this target and a freshly dug hole with in a few inches of this target. I was walking like poop in my pants and had a coil control of about 7 second swings and another setp. Now this target hit and I thought it was a bottle top. it burped and The Excalibur could not re located the target. That is untill I retone the coil accross the scoop. Then it picked up the ever so nice low tone the Excal. is so noted for! About 16 inches later out came this spectalular find of a life time.
14k chain 18k pendant 5 1/2 carrots diamonds. Just about 10 grand! The other hunter had 21 coins I had 113 coins and the gold!
BCNJ

 

[Critterhunter]

Yesterday I was testing the 12x10 against the Ultimate on some dimes at depth (I'll be posting the results of that later). Anyway, with sensitivity way down on both machines (in the south of 3PM range) I couldn't hear these dimes unless I picked up the swing some. I tried a super slow crawl over them and it wouldn't even break the threshold or even null for that matter! But when I picked up the swing to probably what you'd call at least a medium or maybe a fast speed on the Sovereign (in relative terms to that versus slow on this machine and not on others) the dimes banged through loud and clear and ID'd right. That seems to confirm Ism's video above showing the same results, and these dimes were deep(ish), like 7" deep or so, so the shallower explaination of the Ism video can't be the case here IMO.

Now, yes, these were freshly buried dimes so take your pick on if that matters. Oh, by the way, this soil was rich loamy forest floor soil not high in minerals like many (some) of my sites that tend to be higher in mineralization. I prefer this spot in the woods for testing because it's got good soil, is far away from any EMI sources, and I've got a nice wide open flat area with no weeds to do my testing. I took the 10" Tornado and 12x10 to this spot when I compared them in depth a while back.

For sure a super slow barely moving crawl would not even null on the dimes. At a low medium speed they began to sound through, but at what I would call at medium (or perhaps fast-ish for a Sovereign) speed they began to hit even harder.


I want to do a video like Ism did and demostrat various sweep speeds and how they hit on targets, then people can chime in and say which speed they use as I'll number them on the screen for reference.

 

[Rick(ND)]

Many of us that are well experienced Sovereign user that do use them for actual hunting of older areas and those many considered worked out go more by experience than air test, and reburied coins. We know air test are not accurate, we know you have to go slow and also any of us never runs lower sensitivity than maybe 12 o'clock position in manual sensitivity. We learn by the sweep speed what works the best in different areas and I and sure others have seen that by going real slow we have been impressed by the depth we are seeing in areas we ourselves have been over before, I know I sure have. I remember when I first started using the Sovereign back in 1996 and those that were well experienced with them said you can never go too slow with the Sovereign which I thought was odd, but seen they were correct. I also was told never to use auto sensitivity other than to help learn the Sovereign as it will work in auto, smoother threshold and it does good, but when you learn it run manual and so slower and see the real depth the Sovereign can get.Like I say this was on actual targets in the ground and not air test and reburied coins or for that mater those that the ground has been disturbed.
Any one that doubt this, other well experienced people plus myself would love to detect after you in some of these older areas and show you all the great finds you are missing.
Try different setting and different speed if you like, but trust those that have experienced in the field experience as they have seen what the Sovereign can do. In real life it is the same way and why they companies want to hire those with experience as these are the people that have seen how everything really works.

Use your Sovereigns as you like, I will use mine the way I have found works great from the many years of experience with it as it has done well and impressed me and others in some well worked area, love those that come up to me while detecting and tell me I wont find anything as they and others have pounded it to death, then I show them and hand full of older coins they missed.


Rick

 

[gear box]

Just a comment or two. I just like to turn my detector on and start swinging, I can do that with the Sovereign. With my very limited experience using a Sovereign and my lack of a lot of experimenting, I have found a slow swing does work well and a faster swing not so much. I did a little test a few weeks ago on a silver quarter that had been in the ground for many years with fast and slow swings and slow was better. Now my sites are alway's old places with the potential for older coins just not very many of them. No freshly buried coins here. Since then I've done a little checking on some targets that have turned out to be mostly older dimes that have been in the ground a hundred years and a slow swing alway's works better than a faster swing. When I speed up the swing, the target response turns into a short blip not too worthy of a second look. Slow down and the target becomes much more distinguishable, worthy of another look. I'm not going to do much more experimenting, the Sovereign isn't a hard machine to use once you get the grasp of the sounds. Just slow down listen to the sounds and have fun.
Good luck Gary

 

[Critterhunter]

That may very well be the case, that a coin buried for years will respond better to a super slow swing. Might even be soil dependent for some maybe. One final thought is that both Ism and I are using the 12x10. Maybe it prefers a somewhat faster swing? Or, maybe it's sensitivity dependent, because I've read from some (and found for myself) that the lower I ride sensitivity the faster the swing it seems to want to hit harder at depth. For sure if I'm riding sensitivity high and even more for sure if it's right on the edge of sensitivity then the speed seems to want to be slower. Going to try this on some deep undug targets and see what I find. Hope to do a field hunt tomorrow with both coils looking for deep ones to compare both on before digging. Plan to mark/find any deep signals, coin signals or not, and then write down the response type/how good, then throw on the other coil and re-check. Have to then use that second coil to find more super deep stuff and then re-check with the coil that went first last time. That should show me which is deeper *in my soil*. Both coils will ride sensitivity as high as possible for each. I've got the perfect deep coin site to test them at for this. My deepest coins have come from here. It's a remote/hidden mowed field so nobody to bother me, and it's got a picnic table right in the middle. Surrounded by woods with no cars/people nearby on trails or such. It's my favorite site not just for the deep coins I've pulled from there, but also for the peace of mind of the seclusion it brings. No destractions with people around or cars or such. My type of place when detecting. Despite going there and getting skunked many times, I still have a good time even if I don't find any keepers for the day.