Norfolk Wolf Recovery speed test - with square nail in line with dime

[earthmansurfer]

Here is the test that Kyle (from another forum) requested in reference to a Norfolk Wolf video. It was actually pretty fun to do. I have to say I learned a lot and have a lot more questions. After the CTX performed well with the targets 6" - 10" apart (not all on video) I basically spent the test challenging it to get the best signal with the nail and dime less than 1/2" apart from one another. (Would be interesting to see how a Nickel works being that it is a low conductor.)

I realize that a test is not the same as natural in ground targets, but that considered, what really got my attention was how running discrimination really improved things. Again, I realize this is just a test but the in my tests with the E-Trac, running some disc (28 Fe down) seemed better than not running any (e.g. TTF). Further, ferrous coin once again created questions for me (in addition most people run it with no disc so something to think about.) Ferrous Coin really behaves differently and I think comparing it to high trash on targets in the field will be the way to go in the end.

Overall, I played with the following settings/modes:
high trash vs. ferrous coin, recovery fast on/off and modes 50 CO vs. Combine. 50 CO with more disc seemed to perform better than Combine (I think due to 50 CO having more disc - the only difference between the modes.) Will have to revisit Combine with more disc to make things equal.

I appreciate all feedback, suggestion, etc. I have taken a lot of suggestions over past videos into account and appreciate everything.

Thanks,
Albert

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9M5z_ElSU[/video]

 

[Digga03]

i have found that the ferrous coin setting will false on iron as if a coin but will not be repeatable or move around and be hard to pinpoint and yes it seems adding disc will help with the falsing but will still throw up a good target ID on the screen i dug a lot of iron to start off with but that is getting better the more time i spend with the machine.

i get confused when people say combined is that combined ferrous and conductive tones or 5 tones ? did you try this test with 5 tones ? it seems to false the same in 5 tones with ferrous coin but seems to hit better if there is really a coin there with the iron.

 

[Cladiator (OR)]

Nice job Albert. I enjoy watching your vids. They are very helpful and informative. Keep it up.

Thanks,
---Cladiator.

 

[sugar]

RIVETING thanks for your time i find it very informative and look forward to more and especially your conclusions THANKS you are so much faster around the controls than myself i am also interested in running with some discrim and then combined settings i must try and get some time and see if i can get some answers

 

[earthmansurfer]

Thanks for the nice words guys. It's a pleasure for me and I have to say after watching it a few more times, quite educational (but I won't lose sight of the fact that this is just a test.)

Something I notice after watching this again:
Ferrous coin seems to up average the Fe number. Notice when I switched to high trash in combined mode, that the Fe VID would drop down to the 20's (like the E-trac often would). But when I ran in ferrous, it jumped up to the coin VID range. I have to check the other videos as well as more targets to see if this is true in actual in ground targets as well.

Anyone else notice that?

I think I am going to change my hunting style a bit and start playing with settings differently in the field...

Albert

 

[Reeseb]

I noticed two things:

1) Allowing audio on the ferrous target seemed to degrade the audio for the non-ferrous target.

2) Ferrous-Coin seems to exaggerate the FE value (as you pointed out) so that a ferrous target could be mistaken for a non-ferrous target.

I'm liking High Trash over Ferrous-Coin right now. But I have no hands-on experience yet with my 3030.

Reese

 

[Digga03]

if using high trash like was said by earthmansurfer you just have an etrac basically, after all there was a coin there and it was saying 12 on the ferrous line in ferrous coin i know that it pops up all the time but in time the sound of a iron false will sound different to a coin, nothing is perfect i think it boils down to sound in the end and using the target trace to confirm,

but its good to have videos to spark a discussion

 

[earthmansurfer]

Digga - In that other video I made (nail above dime) that is where I said high trash seemed to help. But here it seems that running some discrimination helps. Running disc from the 28 Fe line down was noticeably better than just the bottom right corner (as I don't think the nail was completely disc'd out as you can see in the video). As usual, perhaps no one setting is better and perhaps in certain situations some settings are better than ever - even in that same iron (e.g. - Is the iron next to or perhaps slightly above the coin? If slightly above, ferrous coin will up average the VID's it seems and perhaps get those coins out better.)

But, running high trash on the CTX, it is still MUCH MUCH FASTER on separation and unmasking than the E-Trac. So, you kind of have an E-Trac on steroids ;-)

I know people say the CTX isn't an E-Trac but my recent tests (out of ferrous coin and with some disc) remind me an awful lot of the E-Trac (but as stated above, on steroids). The VID numbers are a bit lagging at times as well, but not as bad as on the E-Trac (but similar). Give me 100 more hours then I'll be able to say with some certainty. But Digger said this wasn't a new E-Trac so he must have his reasons and I trust him AND he has all those hours on it. So I would like to know what the main differences in his opinion are (minus the new modes - in other words other things being equal i.e. - E-Trac vs CTX with the same high trash setting, 50 CO, recovery fast off etc.)

One thing I notice, I think, is that recovery fast on, on the CTX doesn't seem to clip the sound as on the E-Trac and perhaps the VID is more stable as well. Anyone else? I do notice a substantial change with recovery fast on, on the CTX, and didn't notice that much of a difference with the E-Trac (though some).

Albert

 

[SteveP(NH)]

With all due respect there were a couple of significant difference between your test and the ones that the Norfolk Wold does in his. First off he swings the detectors in his tests at the same speed which is his normal swing speed in search mode. He usually takes a couple of practice swings to insure he is up to speed. His swing speed is significantly faster than the one you use. For the video to be a useful comparison with all of his others you should be swing like you are in a normal search pattern. I haven't seen anyone who swings as slowly as you do in this video when in a normal search pattern. I know you need to swing FBS machines slow and low as I have a SE PRO and am a slow hunter myself, but even I don't swing that slowly in search mode. Swing speed has a significant impact of the results of this test and for a useful comparison with the other machines tested in this manner they all have to be swung at the same speed.

The second is you always want to go over the nail first and not the coin so you need to pull the coil back when making the return swing.

 

[earthmansurfer]

Steve - Thanks for the comments. Kyle on another forum told me about the Norfolk Wolf test. He sent me a link to a video where Norfolk was using the Sovereign I think. I see I did sweep the coin first but after I cleared the nail I swept from the nail and then back over the coin, so is there really a big difference? If I get a chance I'll play with the test more and see if there is a difference. I'll post the video here.

Regarding swing speed - In areas with more iron, I swing about 1.5 - 2 seconds side to side, pretty much what is in the video. Some guys swing at 4 seconds or even slower - I don't have patience for that. Now, after I get a beep to catch my attention I will go slower than my normal swing and faster, just to see if I can better the signal. Just a note - Kyle said: "sweep as slow as you like...but ensure the coil is swept over nail first then keep seperating the two targets until the detector sees them both"

Thanks again,
Albert

 

[davespen]

Earthmansurfer,

I agree with Steve, consistency in your testing should include a predetermined swing speed. One additional test aspect might be to perform the test using differing swing speeds )i.e. 1 sec, 1.5 sec, 2 sec., etc.) and record the results.

A significant 'trade-off'' for the use of discrimination for any detector is detection depth. I do a lot of testing on the beach (positive ground) and discrimination will impact detection depth over 25%. Try running the same test using the targets buried at differing depths (e.g. 6", 8", 10", 12", 14", 16", etc.) separated by 3'. Be careful that you maintain same target geometry and aspect with each other to ensure test consistency. You will be surprised at the results...and more importantly will gain first hand knowledge of how your detector performs in your locale. I tune using buried targets at each location I hunt to refine the settings and optimize the performance of the detector. It takes a bit longer initially, but the increase in targets located are the reward.

Regards,
Dave

 

[earthmansurfer]

I noticed two things:

1) Allowing audio on the ferrous target seemed to degrade the audio for the non-ferrous target.

2) Ferrous-Coin seems to exaggerate the FE value (as you pointed out) so that a ferrous target could be mistaken for a non-ferrous target.

I'm liking High Trash over Ferrous-Coin right now. But I have no hands-on experience yet with my 3030.

Reese

Nice catch Reese. I had wondered about that. So, running in an open combine seems to degrade the audio. Running disc seems to enhance the coin signals JUST LIKE I experienced on the E-Trac.

That said, I want to do what Davespen said and bury the targets, which I brought up before due to above ground targets not really representing great tests for FBS machines (in particular).

Dave - I'll try to get my swing speed more consistent, but it's harder than one thinks. Trying to know what one is doing regarding settings, modes, etc. and on top of that swinging the same speed (which I don't do in the field) gets tough.
My basic swinging philosophy is I go moderately slow and then when I get a beep, I investigate it further. (With slower swings for investigation and possibly faster ones to see if there is an affect). Basically, I feel tests should
be like real world hunting, as far as swing speeds go. But I'll try to do both (and I actually thought with all the swings I took, I hit all bases - I wasn't aware of it till you two guys mentioned it.

Thanks,
Albert

 

[earthmansurfer]

I was able to sneak out for an hour today and redo the test with the best settings I have found.

In the video my best response settings are: 50 Conductive with recovery fast on and ferrous coin. Disc from 28 on down.

Note - I did the test buried as well. I started at 4" and was able to pick up the coin when 1" from the nail, in both directions. Also got it at 6" down (sensitivity 20) but had to move them 2" apart. Finally I tried it at 8" down and picked it up enough to be a dig me at 2" apart but the nail falsed. As I dug up the nail and coin I found some 1.5" chunks of iron under and around the targets. I probably missed it prior due to my sensitivity being at only 15 ish to start (iron is really everywhere). So, I won't include the videos here but will search for a clean spot and redo them the right way. Just wanted to mention it though as the results are promising.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t4wpzdnHFw[/video]

 

[Digga03]

interesting Albert started out using 50 CO and didn't like the sounds (used to etrac) but was finding coins (silver) with it changed to combined still found coins but may have dropped a bit on silver, am now using 5 tones which is good have found a lot of coins but silver count is down so one more vids please in 5 tones have quarter or 45 set at 1200 hz i think so it gets my attention, might go back to Co tones and see how i do for a few days.

thanks for the vid's

 

[Reeseb]

Thanks, EarthMaster! Okay, I'll be nice: EarthManSurfer. Hopefully a software update s pending for Ferrous Coin.