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No VLF can balance out both salt & ferrite at once

Z

Zadok2

New member
I've discovered that multi-frequency VLF's AS WELL AS single frequency VLF's lack the capability to simultaneously balance out black sand and salt water. The alternative is a pulse induction detector.

The Motion Discrimination curcuit on some VLF's may screen out the signals from black sand and salt water, creating the false illlusion that they have been "balanced out". But silent, unheard signals from either of these sources CAN STILL INTERFERE with and may even obscure the target signals!
 
Same thing in the gold fields where hot ground is every where. It has to be tracked and balanced quite frequently...so whats your point? Another jab at the AT Pro?
 
Yeah that's one of the dowsides in hunting hot ground but there would be danged few nuggets recovered it one refused to do so. I've hunted places where you had to continually balance your tector just to hunt coins. That's what those controls are for. They ain't just decoration. If one is too lazy to use them then they need to take up another hobby. HA.

Bill
 
Zadok2: Apparently you have a PI machine that works well in black sand environments and that is good. I too have a Garrett PI that will work in any environment I have had it in. I also have a multi-frequency VLF machine with discrimination that has worked every where it has been west coast, east coast, gulf coast and Bahamas and worked well I might add. So apparently you should be more specific as to which machines you are refering too so I myself won't buy one of them. HH :minelab::garrett::tesoro::whites:
 
The black ground is of a (-) negative mineralization. The salt is of a (+) positive nature. Ground balance on the black sand, treat the salt as a target, and adjust it out by using your discriminator. That's how it's done my friend.

PS: yes there are single frequency units that can operate quite well in the salt, & mineralization. There available. Do your homework.
 
Mr.Bill said:
The black ground is of a (-) negative mineralization. The salt is of a (+) positive nature. Ground balance on the black sand, treat the salt as a target, and adjust it out by using your discriminator. That's how it's done my friend.

PS: yes there are single frequency units that can operate quite well in the salt, & mineralization. There available. Do your homework.
Click to expand...

A lot of wedding bands fall right into that same area of the discrimination scale - one gold ring is equal to hundreds of quarters - beach hunters are going after the gold not the clad. In fact several I know discriminate out the coin range in order to concentrate on finding gold. Personally I dig the clad but I understand why some concentrate on the gold.
 
Bearkat. An earlier post indicated that multi frequency VLF's could balance both at the same time, but single frequency VLF'S could not. This is not an attack on single frequency VLF'S like the AT Pro. I'm learned that multi-frequencies ALSO can not do this.
The machines may work quite well in these environments, but they are not ground balancing salt and black sand simultaneously. I don't think any detector can ground balance to more than one point at a time, not even pulse induction. PI's do not notice black sand because the signal decays during the sampling delay and NOT because the black sand was balanced out!
I've done my homework and I stand by the post. It is an opinion by a recognized expert in the field, who has worked on metal detectors for major companies.
 
Here is an easy test to show you what I mean - Just take a GTI 1500 turn on the salt elimination search aid and waive a gold wedding band in front of the search coil. The salt elimination just turns on the discrimination in two notches right where a lot of gold falls at. I hunt the ocean beaches all winter long while the farm fields are frozen solid - its something I've seen with my own two eyes. Exact samething happens with my Fisher F75 so its not that the is anything wrong with the GTI that is just the way single frequency VLF machines work with salt and gold.
 
The DFX is a perfect example - one frequency is balanced to salt and the other to ferrous. See Jeff Foster's book, Digging Deeper with the DFX on page 45 and the section titled, "Dual Frequency Ground Balance" for an explanation of how this works. A salt water beach environment is used as an example in that discussion.
 
You changed subjects in the middle of the stream. You went from apples to bananas.

You need to learn a bit more about how detectors work. Certainly putting it into the "salt" mode does cut into the gold sensitivity. I am talking about using the discrimination control, not the salt switch. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can individually adjust your discrimination numbers with the GTI/GTA's. You discrim. out a block at a time.

Take your F75 and adjust the disc. to 0, then increase it until it just clips off the salt response. You will find that you Do Not loose the gold.

I do believe it's enough of this on this Garrett forum. If you want to continue it, email me, that way it won't tie this forum up.
 
Mr.Bill said:
You changed subjects in the middle of the stream. You went from apples to bananas.

You need to learn a bit more about how detectors work. Certainly putting it into the "salt" mode does cut into the gold sensitivity. I am talking about using the discrimination control, not the salt switch. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can individually adjust your discrimination numbers with the GTI/GTA's. You discrim. out a block at a time.

Take your F75 and adjust the disc. to 0, then increase it until it just clips off the salt response. You will find that you Do Not loose the gold.

I do believe it's enough of this on this Garrett forum. If you want to continue it, email me, that way it won't tie this forum up.
Click to expand...

I don't want to talk about non-Garrett machines on a Garrett forum which is why I used the example of the 1500. I used the salt search aid as a short cut to refer to the two notches that are blocked out when you turn it on. They are the two that the machine falses on and they are also the two that most gold rings show up at.

I don't really want to waste a precious detecting day using the other machine at the beach as it lacks ground tracking and I don't want to have to gb every 2 minutes to keep the gb setting correct and I don't want to leave it in the truck while I am using my regular beach machine and out of sight of it, so I will wait until my At Pro shows up and do your test using it, though my understanding is that the discrimination on the At Pro (above the iron range) can only be set using notches as well. I'll probably be testing it at Salisbury or Seabrook.
 
RE: Dual ground balance on the DFX.

1. The Minelab Safari, a multi-frequency detector with 28 fbs frequencies, takes the frequencies which have the least interference. It does not have a traditional ground balance and does not "ground balance out" black sand and saltwater at the same time.

2. DFX Dual ground balance, pg. 45, Jeff Foster. I didn't see anything in the DFX manual about setting one freq. to saltwater and the other to black sand! All the preset modes had the mixed mode off for coins, jewelry, beach and prospecting. Mixed mode was only used for relic hunting, in the preprogrammed modes!
The "saltwater" balanced frequency should have a lot of trouble in hot black sand or magnetite. The other "black sand" or ferrous frequency might use fine GEB or "hot rock reject", but it still would have some problems in hot ground, since it's a VLF! This "dual ground balance" might work well on most beaches, but I don't think it would do so well in situations with high mineralization!

3.It's accepted that single frequency VLF's can only ground balance to one point at t time. A salt switch works fine as long as you don't encounter a lot of heavy, "hot" black sand!
 
Zadok2 said:
RE: Dual ground balance on the DFX.

1. The Minelab Safari, a multi-frequency detector with 28 fbs frequencies, takes the frequencies which have the least interference. It does not have a traditional ground balance and does not "ground balance out" black sand and saltwater at the same time.

2. DFX Dual ground balance, pg. 45, Jeff Foster. I didn't see anything in the DFX manual about setting one freq. to saltwater and the other to black sand! All the preset modes had the mixed mode off for coins, jewelry, beach and prospecting. Mixed mode was only used for relic hunting, in the preprogrammed modes!
The "saltwater" balanced frequency should have a lot of trouble in hot black sand or magnetite. The other "black sand" or ferrous frequency might use fine GEB or "hot rock reject", but it still would have some problems in hot ground, since it's a VLF! This "dual ground balance" might work well on most beaches, but I don't think it would do so well in situations with high mineralization!

3.It's accepted that single frequency VLF's can only ground balance to one point at t time. A salt switch works fine as long as you don't encounter a lot of heavy, "hot" black sand!
Click to expand...

This is a Garrett forum and not a White's one so I don't want to get into a detailed discussion of how the DFX operates, but your answer indicates that you have a poor understanding of the DFX. If you want to move this over to the DFX classroom forum we can have a detailed discussion about it there. However, I will tell you that mixed mode has nothing to do with the ground balance or multi-frequency modes of the detector. It refers to running the machine with the discrimination and all metal modes both turned on at the same time.
 
Steve P(NH). I was mainly referring to your earlier post about dual frequency ground balance. Forget the mixed mode part.

In motion discrimination, the noise from salt water and black sand will not interfere with or obscure target signals unless the noise (or interference) occurs simultaneously with the target signal, so you may still receive some good signals in a black sand & saltwater environment. But you won't be aware of the times that a silent, unheard signal obliterated or interfered with the target signal. Weaker signals like small gold are more likely to be blanked out this way.
 
DUDES! and Mr, Garret BOTTOMLINE.... when I show up at the Jersey Shore swinging a new AT Pro, will I be happy not to hear the constant chatter beeep boop boop beep bomp boop beeeeeep! as I do with my Sharpshooter II when I'm over wet salty sand???? Is that too much to ask?
 
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