New CZ3d user with questions (looooong.....)

[epi-hunter]

Hi, I am relatively new to MD'ing (had an ACE250 before getting my CZ3d about a month ago). I have logged maybe 20 hours on it so far but not in optimal settings at all (because so far I haven't had a chance to do anything but short hunts in nearby parks). A couple of the parks were mid-1800's but are still used so there is a lot of modern trash around, which drove me nuts (I did switch over to salt mode which helped somewhat). However this weekend will be my first chance to get to a late 1800's old homestead site which has never been detected, so I am really excited.

During my park trips I had a lot of trouble with excessive chatter, even with the sensitivity turned down to 2 or 3. However I've been using the pushbutton GB method and haven't even been able to get an audio threshold tone to adjust, and I read the great posts here about the bobbing GB method just now so I'm going to try that and hope it helps. Otherwise I can't imagine why I'm getting so much chatter??? (By the way I have discrim on 1 to notch out iron, but nothing else).

My main question is deep targets and volume. With all the chatter and falsing I've experienced so far, I have no idea what a good deep target should sound like. I couldn't find anything repeatable at the parks except shallow targets, but with many random high tones every time I swung, it was really hard to tell what I was hearing. My experience with the ACE250 didn't help, as that was one volume only and there was no such thing as a 'whisper' on deep targets. I have no headphones except for a pair of stock Koss ones and those won't stay on my head no matter what I do (I'm female, maybe with a smaller head than most men not to be gender-biased or anything, but so far I haven't found any headphones that will not slide off my head). I also need to hear surrounding sounds. Will I be able to hear deep targets without headphones (assuming I have volume at 10 for maximum audio boost of deep targets), and if so, what will they sound like? Or am I better off to keep searching for headphones and keep the volume at 4 without the boost?

I know I just asked lots of questions and thank you if you are still reading

 

[WVAdirtdigger]

Welcome to detecting with a 3D. The chatter you speak of happens at some of my sites and not at others. I use bobbing method for GB. I have re-ground balanced and cut sensitivity with no luck. The chirps you hear are usually not repeatable, therefore not good targets. I just keep right on hunting ignoring the chirps waiting on the "right" sound. It's pretty obvious when it's a coin. Deep coins sound like shallow coins, only softer. If you hear a smearing of the sound or if it turns to iron burps, it's almost never a coin. Although some very deep coins will come in as iron. Coins have a round bonggg sound to them. I also recommend running 0 disc. and listening to all sounds. Listening to all that iron will let you know why you're hearing some chirps. It will also remind you to slow down because you're in trash.

Old houses are the perfect site to use your 3D. That's where I spend 90% of my time. The 5" coil would be a great addition when you're around old houses.

I have saved lots of instructional posts about the 3D. Email me: rdcottrill at netzero.net and I'll forward a Word doc that will help your learning curve.

Good Luck,

 

[Dan-Pa.]

Learn the bobbing method as it will give you more stability and depth.
Remember even with Sens. at 4 it goes deep and set too high can cause chatter.
Looking for deepies put the volume at 10 and even the deep ones will knock your socks off (not a whisper type guy myself)
Under 5 you get modulated audio..shallow loud, deep soft...
Visit Mikes CZ page as its applicable to all CZ's to a point.
Last but not least the area your hunting requires the regular mode..
Only use the other mode if in extremely old areas not loaded with trash...hit an area used 150 years ago and still being used regular mode is the way to go lest the trash will drive you crazy...Heck not as short as I thought trying to cover your questions.
Heck used a CZ since 92 and still learn something new now and then so at 20hrs you are definetly a rookie..

 

[epi-hunter]

Thanks Dave! When I first ordered the CZ3d (before using it) you emailed me the word document and I read everything several times. Now that I've used the detector for a bit I am going to re-read it. It helps when I am in the field trying to re-affirm everything I have read (by digging like a maniac!)

I went back to the park for an hour today and practiced the bobbing method of GB -- it made all the difference. So far no chatter and little if any falsing with sensitivity running at 4.5.

I was reading back posts on this forum from February of this year and you had a couple of posts about air tests that you did with your CZ3d that gave poor results, and you also noted that you weren't getting the depth in the field that you thought you should be getting (I think you said that 95% of your coins were found at 4" or above). At that point you were waiting to hear back from a Fisher technician. I realize that air tests are generally not great for the this detector, but I wondered if you ever got the depth question resolved, and are you now finding coins at greater depths? Thank you again!

 

[epi-hunter]

There's no question that I am "definitely a rookie" which is why I am reading everything I can find (several times) and getting out in the field as much as I can. I have a lot to learn and reading posts here and on other forums has been a great help.

I did work on the bobbing method of GB this afternoon with great results. That was definitely part of my problem!

Sounds like if I crank the volume to 10 I'll be ok without headphones, if I'm reading your post right. That is great to know, thank you!

I would agree that the parks do best in salt mode, but I have been keeping it in enhanced with a very, very slow swing speed. When I get a good target I often flip over to salt mode to see what it says. I'm learning a lot about nickels, pull tabs, etc. New nickels almost always ID as pulltab in enhanced but when I flip to salt, usually they ID correctly. Older nickels are more likely to ID correctly in enhanced (although sometimes not). I haven't found a V nickel yet but if it reads nickel in enhanced and foil in salt, I'll be digging! Actually I dig everything anyway, because even those pulltab ID's in both modes can turn out to be a gold ring, who knows. Plus it is a learning experience.

Again, thank you. I'm looking forward to sponging more information from this site

 

[WVAdirtdigger]

You remembered that? That's amazing. My unit was OK. I have found coins up to 7" deep. I don't know if they don't exist deeper around here or maybe I'm just no good at the deepies.

Here is the post I made after I got it back:


Air test the unit. I just sent my 3D back to the factory because I thought it wasn't getting depth. They said it was one of the hottest units they ever saw.

Here's how to air test it. GB-5, Sens 5 0r above volume 4 or above. Disc -0 You want to hear all the ID sounds.

Take a box turn it over and use the bottom as your top. Measure down from the "top" and make 5,6,7,8,9,10,11" marks. Now take a knife and cut slits at each of those marks parallel with the top of the box. Use a copper penny (pre 1982) and put it in the slots. Pass your coil along the top of the box so that the coin is under the center of it. About half of of your coil will be hanging over the edge of the box. You should be able to hit the coin down to at lest 9" and probably at 10. The factory for the 3D is 9.5 to 10.5". Since the 3D is fashioned from the CZ-5, I imagine these numbers would be the same. Don't do this in your house. Your box should be at least 2 feet from the ground and 10 feet from any metal object. Be careful not to do it around power lines also.

Any soil between your coil and a coin will impede the signal and reduce your ability to detect a coin, so air testing is the max your machine will do. I know this flies in the face of the stuff you read on message boards.

I spent some time on the phone with the Fisher techs to learn this.

 

[WVAdirtdigger]

I've read many of your posts and they always mention CZ-5,6,70. Basically every CZ ever made but I didn't know you had a 3D.

BTW, keep on postin' so I can keep on learning.

I've been reading up on the Xterra 50. Possibly going to get one as a second unit.

 

[OldeTymer]

Definitely find a pair of headphones that will work for you. They do several things to help your hunting. One, they do block out outside noise that can keep you from hearing the soft signals of deep targets. Two, they preserve battery power giving you more hunt time on a set of batteries/charge. Three, they don't allow the beeping from your detector disturb others, and alert them to your activities. If you're concerned about being able to hear your surroundings while detecting, look into a Rattler headphone by DetectorPro. It has only one ear-cup so you can listen to your detector while your other ear can listen to your surroundings. I have been hunting for 33 years, and I would never hunt without headphones. It's just not effective to do so.

Hope this helps,
OldeTymer

 

[Dan-Pa.]

Certainly didn't mean to be detrimental and after digging 6 extremely deep rusty nails with my original CZ6 almost wrapped it around a tree.
Some say a nickel is a nickle but not so as older V, shield, buffalo and even a super deep Jefferson will read low so I commend you for your experimenting with both modes which many dnce you get that bobbimg method down pat and you approach a field you know with a slow swing if its there you will get it. I have tried a bunch of other manufacturers and believe me a CZ is as deep or deeper than any on the planet coil for coil...

 

[Dan-Pa.]

And came to the conclusion any one of them will get them deep and foil is the hot spot for thin gold womans rings with nice stones.
I guess arguments can be made for any model but feel the CZ6A was tops in analog and althought the digital rodmount CZ7A didn't go over well was top in the digital models. Only my opinions of course and use what works for you. Again when I hang up my boots a CZ will be my all time favorite for deep silver...Am I rich heck no but over the years did a lot of trading and used a lot of units which I feel made me a better detectorist...Have had some hunts with some nice kids(anyone uder 40) and did well so indeed experience has paid off...

 

[Dan-Pa.]

I really believe that fisher is partially right in saying air tests are the deepest, but properly ground balanced, sens. as high as you can go usually 6-7-8, volume at 10 and the right ground preferably soaked from an all day rain and lets not forget the halo which may make that penny the size of a golf ball just might get you several more inches in the field..

 

[Dan-Pa.]

Actually if I didn't have a pair or they broke I just wouldn't hunt as you will enter a new world with them on and increase your battery life and not disturb anyone in your area.Wouldn't happen as I always carry a spare or two. Try it and you will like it. Might work for 2 inch clad but for those 8-12 inch deepies headphones are needed and will improve your abilities..They make minny phones for extremely hot areas and even one with just one side for rattlesnake country..

 

[epi-hunter]

Thanks everyone for all your help. I was about to wrap my CZ3d around a tree yesterday too, as I spent six hours at an old (never detected) homestead site. Barn on stone foundation still somewhat standing, house torn down, outhouse still standing. I found everything except old coins. I think I dug every square nail in the place. I am fooled by deep rusty iron (so deep it won't even pinpoint) and I don't know what to do about it. Dave said that it gives a 'softer' tone than a deep coin, but having never heard any deep coins with the CZ3d I might never find a basis for comparison! How am I supposed to know what a deep coin sounds like if I can't find any?

I do think I have the bobbing method of GB down fairly well. I re-ground balanced several times yesterday and was running between 4 and 5 GB (sensitivity 5-6, Disc back and forth between 0 and 1 (there was SO much iron in the ground it was driving me nuts at 0).

I have to admit I'm frustrated. Yesterday I was out in the middle of nowhere (no one else around for miles to disturb me) and no surrounding noise, so I just cranked the volume to 10 and when I got a good repeatable high tone that wasn't bouncing lower, I would lower the volume to 4 and re-scan. Many times it would then sound very faint and I knew I had a deep target. Most of the time it turned out to be deep iron. I had lots of targets that jumped from coin to iron and back (I dug a few of those and then stopped because there were so many) but it was frustrating the amount of deep iron that read as solid coin. This detector is supposed to be great at old homestead sites, where there typically can be tons of iron, so what am I doing wrong?

I'll get a pair of headphones and see if that makes a difference. Do you really think it would have made a difference in the setting I described above (i.e. did I possibly leave deep coins because I could not hear the tone even cranked to 10?). I'm not sure if it's worth my time to go back to that site or not. I really do not want to get frustrated - I'd be happy just finding ANY old coin (IH penny, anything!) to keep me motivated.

 

[Bill W.]

Yes, they exist deeper down there... Remember the IH at a solid 9 inches the 2nd day? I definitely don't think it's the norm down there. Not when you find 100 year old coins at 3 inches on a regular basis.

-Bill

WVAdirtdigger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You remembered that? That's amazing. My unit was
> OK. I have found coins up to 7" deep. I don't know
> if they don't exist deeper around here or maybe
> I'm just no good at the deepies.

 

[epi-hunter]

I know you didn't mean to be detrimental and I didn't mean to sound like I was taking offense, as I definitely did not. I do know that I have a lot to learn, and that is a big part of the fun of this hobby

 

[OldeTymer]

If I can make a couple of observations, and suggestions.

Get that set of headphones. Turn the volume down to just below 5. Turn the sensitivity down to 2, 3 or lower. Consider getting a 5" coil. Keep the disc on 0. Sweep real slow. When you get a good sounding signal, pinpoint it so you know where the center of that target is. Then, with a slow, short sweep, sweep the target and listen to the tone. If it's a good target, you will get the proper tone, and meter reading, for that target. If it's iron, you will get that low iron tone. It's very important to sweep the coil directly over the center of the target to get a proper ID. If you were finding square nails, that site definitely has potential for old coins. I have a site that is paved with square nails, and have been hunting it over 15 years. It has given up over 200 pre-1881 coins. It can get frustrating in the iron, but if you take the time to learn how to hunt those sites, you will be rewarded.

Feel free to email, if you like, with any questions that I may be able to help with.

OldeTymer

 

[Bill W.]

As has been said before... the very first thing I would do is get a set of headphones. The 'volume' is really not meant to be above 5 in MOST instances. After 5 it really distorts the sounds. Using headphones you will (with practice) pick out coins alot easier than falses. I would also recommend that you rotate on your good signals. If you're standing and swing the coil north to south rotate and swing east to west. If the signal stays in the same ID dig it both direction e-w and n-s. Sensitivity is good in between 3-5... and even lower. Above 5 can make the 3D too unstable. I would leave the signals that don't pinpoint alone until you pickup the coins sounds with shallower targets. Targets that don't pinpoint can be extremely deep and can frustate quickly until you get some time in under your belt. Intially, I would recommend detecting a place that is low in iron. Iron can make detecting alot harder when you know the machine. When you don't know the machine it can make you really scratch your head. Deep coins are not as numerous as you would think in most areas. Good luck.

-Bill

 

[epi-hunter]

Thank you, this was some excellent advice!

I went out for a few hours yesterday afternoon using the stock headphones (they aren't grey ghosts by any means, but they're all I have at the moment). I went to a park that has been around for a hundred years or so, but is still used. I set the volume on 4, disc on 0, sensitivity on 4. I didn't find anything to speak of, but I concentrated on the tones and it seemed completely different with headphones on. I had some shallow targets that ID'ed in the high range without jumping around (I dug those and got some clad and a few Budweiser caps).

I did notice that everytime I isolated a deeper high signal and swung over it for an ID, it would repeat for a few swings but then jump to iron low tone for a few swings, then back to high tone. Is that the way that I know my target is a deep iron, versus a deep coin? A deep coin should NOT jump at all from high tone, correct? I didn't get any deep targets that did not jump to iron.

Also I am having trouble with depth measurement on the meter. After pinpointing and then sweeping over the target for ID, I push pinpoint with the coil to the side 8 inches or so, and then bring it back over the center of the target and set the coil gently on the ground. When I then let go of the pinpoint button, the reading should be the depth, correct? Where I'm having trouble is that sometimes I get a single 'bonk' iron tone (even though the target ID'ed in the high range without jumping) and the needle reads in the iron range or 8 inches. Even for a target which I know is shallow. Then if I immediately repeat the above procedure for the same target, the next time I might get a single 'high' tone after letting go of the pinpoint button, and the needle will stay in the 2 inch range. Why the single tone when I let go of the button, and is the needle reading that follows the depth reading? Why does the tone vary for the same target that I've already ID'ed as a solid coin signal? Why is the needle in the 8 inch range once and in the 2 inch range the next? (After digging a couple of these targets I verified that it was indeed a clad target at about 2 inches).

I guess that's more than one question. Sorry.... I promise to shut up now. Hopefully this is helping someone other than just myself.

 

[Anonymous]

I did notice that everytime I isolated a deeper high signal and swung over it for an ID, it would repeat for a few swings but then jump to iron low tone for a few swings, then back to high tone. Is that the way that I know my target is a deep iron, versus a deep coin? A deep coin should NOT jump at all from high tone, correct? I didn't get any deep targets that did not jump to iron.

ANSWER: I've hunted in two different states with my CZ-5. In both states, deep coins will bounce from High Coin to Iron when making multiple passes. Back in OK, the "magic depth" where coins would do this was usually 6" and deeper. Up here in the iron-laden soils of MI, that "magic depth" is closer to 5". The key to distinguishing the difference of iron and a deep coin is making sweeps from four directions. If I get a bouncing signal that stays in the same place on all signals, I'll dig it. If I seem to get a double-beep, or the target "moves", and seems to be in a couple different areas, it's probably iron.

Also, something which you might want to learn is how to hunt in Auto-Tune (all-metal) mode. When you get a signal, you can easily flip down to 0 Disc. to ID the target. There are some subtle nuances to the sounds of different types of targets that will help give away what it is. A solid hit in Auto-tune is usually one piece of metal, be it a coin, pulltab, etc. However, a hit in Auto-tune that seems fluttery, or has more than one distinct area that gives off a lot of sound, can be a few different things, like a mass of wires, a nail (or two), a coin spill, or a silver chain. Flip to 0 Disc. to get a idea of what it is. Many of these targets will give multiple tones, but, the percentage of which tones you get may make you want to investigate further.

Over the years of using my CZ-5, I've gotten to know it rather well, but it still teaches me things even to this day. Lately, I find myself digging a lot of "iffy" targets in trash-laden areas, and come away with good coins. My first two silver halves both had iron in the hole with them, and one had a Wheat stuck to it as well. Both were shallow targets, 4" or less.

Also I am having trouble with depth measurement on the meter. After pinpointing and then sweeping over the target for ID, I push pinpoint with the coil to the side 8 inches or so, and then bring it back over the center of the target and set the coil gently on the ground. When I then let go of the pinpoint button, the reading should be the depth, correct? Where I'm having trouble is that sometimes I get a single 'bonk' iron tone (even though the target ID'ed in the high range without jumping) and the needle reads in the iron range or 8 inches. Even for a target which I know is shallow. Then if I immediately repeat the above procedure for the same target, the next time I might get a single 'high' tone after letting go of the pinpoint button, and the needle will stay in the 2 inch range. Why the single tone when I let go of the button, and is the needle reading that follows the depth reading? Why does the tone vary for the same target that I've already ID'ed as a solid coin signal? Why is the needle in the 8 inch range once and in the 2 inch range the next? (After digging a couple of these targets I verified that it was indeed a clad target at about 2 inches).

ANSWER: Sounds like you are doing the "X" style of pinpointing to locate your target, and then running the Pinpoint over the target to get a depth reading. I do the same thing. You don't want to release the pinpoint button until you are done. Hold the pinpoint button in, and center your coil over the target. Whatever the meter reads, is your depth. As soon as you let go of the pinpoint button, and move the coil slightly, it will register the hit in ID mode. Whatever that hit is, IS NOT your depth.

I try not to use the pinpoint to much. VCO pinpoint really drains the batteries. I try to judge the approximate depth by the sound of the hit. You won't be able to do this much until you get a good pair of headphones and set your volume to just under 5.

HH from Allen in MI

 

[Dan-Pa.]

Not written in stone but should help...If the target covers a larger area its a rusty nail, coin will cover a small area, if the pinpoint seems to move when digging its a nail. Try crossing it from several angles and admit its tough to even get it to repeat twice on deepies if you can't get it to repeat from at least two angles its a nail. Remember swing left to right as to and fro just isn't accurate with a CZ. If you get a beep from one angle and a double beep from another its a nail as you angle is the length of the nail whereas a coin is round.Last but not least honestly after many hours the hit will just sound different( real hard to explain) and even feel a silver coin gives a more mellow tone than a copper coin...Heck we all get fooled now and then as nothing is perfect and a tilted coin or one next to junk can goof one up..After a while it will all sink in, I usually get fooled now and then when things are slow and go after an extremely deep iffie...Remember its better to analize the target from the top rather than digging a 10-12 inch hole so take your time and experiment and you will understand what I am saying...Remember detectors are expensive so if you get frustrated take some deep breaths as wrapping a CZ around a tree will cause considerable damage even if they are built like a tank.