NASA Tom recently queried on picking out gold among aluminum:nerd:

[vlad]

Aluminum trash items are (mostly) of medium conductance; yet, low-density. Gold is also of medium conductance; yet, of high-density. And this can be witnessed on an O-Scope.
So 'why' can't we develop accordingly!
(what would it add in cost?)
If it can be added to a VLF, why not for i.d. on a PI?

 

[slingshot]

Aluminum trash items are (mostly) of medium conductance; yet, low-density. Gold is also of medium conductance; yet, of high-density. And this can be witnessed on an O-Scope.
So 'why' can't we develop accordingly!
(what would it add in cost?)
If it can be added to a VLF, why not for i.d. on a PI?

I've asked this for many years . Back in the 70's there were accomplished BFO operators who could discern sudden large increases in the beats ( a squeal type sound) for foil and tabs versus the moderate increase in beats for coins, rings, etc. I always felt this could be measured much like conductance.
Dave J gave an answer, but for the life of me,I can't remember it. I wish I had continued my electronics pursuit but having fun hunting.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Back in the 70's there were accomplished BFO operators who could discern sudden large increases in the beats ( a squeal type sound) for foil and tabs versus the moderate increase in beats for coins, rings, etc. I always felt this could be measured.....

Nothing has changed. People then claimed to "hear a difference" (between gold and aluminum). And some people NOW claim it can be done. So nothing changed from the BFOs to the present, or 1970s to the present. However, they're all just going by memory bias psychology. And no, it couldn't be done then. And no... it can't be done now.

If any one disputes you on this, the solution is simple: You merely invite them out to the nearest inner city blighted park and say "show me". You will quickly hear the sound of crickets.

As for the OP's question: The reason this difference of densities can't be measured, is because, to do so, you'd have to remove it from the ground, and weigh it and compare to its volume. But ... gee ... if you've already removed it from the ground, then you can merely LOOK at it, to see : Aluminum vs gold

 

[vlad]

Often claimed (to be seen) never proved.
People have claimed they can identify a gold ring vs a tab by sound--I've never seen it called. (If I hit a "tab" tid in an old area 7" deep, from knowlege of the situation I
know it very probably NOT a tab--from experience. While I may be wrong, odds are that part of the time I will be right.........flip a coin, heads or tails?
(The situation reminds me of magicians, professional deceivers, that step over the line and claim psychic powers, and often fool some scientist who are very smart people.
Uri Geller was one such, who offered to show his powers on Johnny Carson. Amazing Randi told Johnny how to set it up: you provide the items, do NOT like Geller or his people
come near them on the show, before the appearance.......Geller, "I feel weak tonight.")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNKmhv9uoiQ

 

[slingshot]

.... Back in the 70's there were accomplished BFO operators who could discern sudden large increases in the beats ( a squeal type sound) for foil and tabs versus the moderate increase in beats for coins, rings, etc. I always felt this could be measured.....

Nothing has changed. People then claimed to "hear a difference" (between gold and aluminum). And some people NOW claim it can be done. So nothing changed from the BFOs to the present, or 1970s to the present. However, they're all just going by memory bias psychology. And no, it couldn't be done then. And no... it can't be done now.

If any one disputes you on this, the solution is simple: You merely invite them out to the nearest inner city blighted park and say "show me". You will quickly hear the sound of crickets.

As for the OP's question: The reason this difference of densities can't be measured, is because, to do so, you'd have to remove it from the ground, and weigh it and compare to its volume. But ... gee ... if you've already removed it from the ground, then you can merely LOOK at it, to see : Aluminum vs gold

First let me say I get that. I was referring to the -for better words- velocity of the signal response and not measurement of densities. Perhaps conductance is too much a part of this to separate?

 

[Skillet]

For my part, I try to focus on lady's rings (just under nickel).

With a Garrett GTA, for example, a solid, metered "3" ID catches my attention, if depth reads 4", 9/10 a quick check w/ pinpointer shows surface foil, and I'll pluck it out, or just move on. If I get a "3" @ 3", I dig it, everytime. Canslaw can fool you, but it's easily recovered and tossed in with the other junk.

The lady's rings don't carry much gold, but a nice stone-set can pay for ur machine! Had good luck finding smaller gold rings, this way. Once, a class ring and a 14k onyx/diamond ring within a few feet of each other in an old high school lawn. (Later found a sterling ring, near the bleachers, but it banged like a dime)

Anyhow, three in one day on land was a record, for me.

Also dig metered "5"s w/ a GTA, it's a different signal fm most junk, and found men's gold rings, that way. Mostly, I'm looking for lady's rings... Easy to lose, likely to carry valuable stones... still dig plenty of 'slaw, however.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Vlad, your post is a breath of fresh air.

But as opposed to the magician tricks (supposed mind-powers, blah blah) that you allude to: I'm sure that the tricks and know-how that the gold-vs-aluminum debate is different. Those md'rs who claim that there is a difference to-be-learned: I have no doubt are quite sincere in their beliefs. Unlike the charlatans you allude to.

But in the case of md'ing and gold vs aluminum, here's the mind-trick that's at play : Everytime we go to dig a signal, we subconsciously say to ourselves : "This one sounds different". But when it turns out to be junk, we forget our premonitions and say to ourselves "yeah, it *did* sort of sound junky, now that I think of it".

But when an object FINALLY turns out to be a gold ring, only THEN do we remember our premonitions and think "I KNEW IT" (conveniently forgetting the 50 objects we just dug, with the same premonitions, that turned out to be junk). It's all a subconscious mind-trick. There's even 2 sincere-well-meaning dealers in CA that advance this silly-ness. I've challenged both of them. And ... you guessed it, the sound of crickets.

Even if the success ratio were 10 or 20 to 1 "fooled" ratio, any md's would gladly put up with ratios like that, to get a gold ring. But when it becomes 100 to 200 to 1, then .... I'm sorry ..... that's nothing more than random chance.

 

[vlad]

the so called psychics, who ask a person an interminable amount of questions--one occasion a person asked 123 and got 10 positive responses.
People were amazed by the 10 correct but did not notice the 113 wrong. It seems we see what we want to see and disregard the rest (psychics, horse racing, or detecting.)
You kinda described what happens as a self fulfilling prophecy-that is in a way self deceiving, because we just need an answer for what happened.
But there is no need to explain a signal we deem trash and recover a ring next to iron; the essence of hunting is just...........digging. The effort is rewarding.
By the way, Ty Brook has a sizable reward for anyone that can prove an Electroscope or similar device works to his satisfaction.
Until we find a better way to measure buried targets a lot of trash will be dug, and gold missed. (density seems to be a good variable)
Take the case of Peter Popoff a faith healer (who wore a hearing aid???)
He was hearing a voice but not from God. (It was his conspiring wife through a wireless connection to his "hearing aid".)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-7beRITYM

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....By the way, Ty Brook has a sizable reward for anyone that can prove an Electroscope or similar device works to his satisfaction. ...

Vlad,

1) I agree with you on the memory bias trick of md'ing, horse-racing, horoscopes, etc....

2) As for the various charlatans (supposed psychics, fake healer-preachers, etc...), there is a difference between that, and what we're talking about in the "gold vs aluminum" notion: The difference is: Those exposed fakers *knew* that they were merely doing a parlor trick. But the md'r, who thinks he can tell aluminum from gold (by sounds, tones, TID coords, etc..) is quite sincere. They do not realize the memory bias trick going on. Sincere (albeit mistaken) vs Insincere .

3) As for the "Electroscopes or similar devices": Perhaps the maker of the LRL (with a battery and some wires) knows full well it's just cobbled together pinball parts that do nothing. But I'll bet a bunch of the buyers/users of the devices are sincere (albeit sincerely duped).

And as for Ty Brook's reward: You would THINK that the un-claimed prize money SHOULD SPEAK VOLUMES . And put the matter to rest. Right ? But there's an amazing psychology that arises from the "faithful", when unclaimed challenge/rewards are pointed out to them. Instead of "putting the matter to rest", they will come out with a string of comeback lines that is truly amazing:

a) We don't have to prove anything to you. So the reward money proves nothing.

b) The person who got tested & failed , only proves that singular user wasn't qualified, wasn't holding it right, and needs more practice.

c) The test the they offered to do is rigged and unfair. Deliberately to cause the LRL users to fail.

d) The reward money isn't high enough to entice me to take the challenge (my time, my travel $ to get there to be tested , etc...)

e) Or the faithful will dig deep to find "dirt" on those who'd dare to make such prize $ challenges. Ie.: they could dig in on Ty Brooks, and find out he lacks a science degree. Or perhaps he has something in his past he's not proud of (stole too many hubcaps as a kid). Or ... you name it. For example: They did this to Randi's prize $$. They attacked the character of Randi (as if that had anything to do with the challenge being offered !). Eg.: since Randi had a big income (as a sought-after speaker for TV appearances, speaking engagements, endorsements, etc....), well then ... Gee, that must mean he's "only in it for the money" and he's "just an entertainer". Hence we can dismiss anything he says, right ? Including this test challenge.

See how it never ends ? So as much as you'd think these prize moneys to "put up or shut" would put an end to it, they never do

 

[Sven]

All my gold finds sounded like any other junk target. Always surprised when I see the glint of gold in the hole. After 40 years of digging, never noticed any particular gold find stand out in any particular way using a VLF detector.
Only once using my PI with a 5" coil did I get a audio tone that sounded very different than any other of the 1000 targets I have dug with it. It was a big, gemstone man's gold ring. And never heard that particular audio tone again.

 

[Mega]

One of the biggest problems that we have here in the UK especially regarding gold coins is that only 'milled' gold coins have a uniformal gold content but our 'hammered' gold coins ie celtic gold staters etc are not,the content of the gold subject to the availability at the time can vary by a big margin with additional metals added,so if you pass a selection of gold hammered coins over a coil and read what the screen is telling you,then the TID is not consistent and this can be a major problem.

Have been lucky that over the years i have found a reasonable amount of gold coins from small celtic gold staters upto Viccy Sovereigns,although the celtic coins are over 2000 years old and in good condition my pride and joy was a George111 full guinea which i found about 3 years back,because of the condition i was offered a substantial amount of money for it and its the only coin or infact any detecting find that i have ever sold.

Gold does come into the Aluminium range and this is the problem,but saying that i generally dont detect in locations like beaches,parks etc that have aluminium.apart from the odd aircraft crash that scatters a vast amount of the stuff around then for the most parts i dont have problems either with ringpulls.

Surprisingly enough the machine that has found me the most has been my T2 with the 5'' coil on,followed by my DFX.

 

[vlad]

results are the same. A phony psychic working a group puts on a show, but the people have an aptitude to want to believe so strongly......they deceive themselves.
Rationalizing that a gold ring sounds "different" is also self deception. As I stated call enough signals gold.....sooner or later, you will be right....and I guess 1 right out of 50...is proof enough for some.
(Skepticism is a healthy thing . Randi offers a $1-million prize to anyone able to demonstrate a supernatural ability under scientific testing. 'Renowned' skeptic Sylvia Brown took up his challenge on Larry King.
But in 2 years had not done so; at first she said he was a 'godless' man and did not want the money (Randi said well she just enjoy taking his money; then she said....
....she could not contact him because she had no way to find him. Self described "worlds greatest psychic"..........could-not-find-Randi, an at large popular showman?
Randi looked a device that was the bomb detector equal of an Electroscope, wires, battery meter [with battery check and did nothing else except show battery was working.] It was sold for many thousands of dollars through governments and officials padding the price at different levels before getting to end users. Fields were "cleared" and terrorists made it through checkpoints.....hundreds died as a result. The inventor was convicted of fraud and spent 10 years in prison.)
I've always wondered if a meter scale on the + side going to 1000 might be of more help, but without new technology measuring others things.......its still hit and miss.
(I know Tom knows more than he is saying on big advances, but he is under NDAS on a lot of matters.)