Jumpy numbers at the park

[Goes4ever]

this park I was at sunday is a place where everything is jumpy, nothing locks on except real shallow clad. Guy I was hunting with was using x-50 and he was not getting any old coins. I told him the wheats here jump wildly and he should just watch his depth meter, and dig ANYTHING 6" or deeper.

I got a signal and called him over, he ran his coil across it 4 times and said he would not dig that signal, he got 21-32-39-24 in 4 passes. I told him it was a wheat, and that is how they act here. Told him to watch as I dug it, sure enough it was a 6" deep 1940 wheat.

Another one I got hit at 32-42-26, all from one direction, every other way nulled out. I saw it was deep so I dug it and there was a nail directly on top of a wheat. The x-70 still impresses me, but you CANNOT rely on the numbers alone. Digging these type of signals has taught me a lot about what the machine is telling me. Rely on your ears, if you get a solid high tone, that is not scratchy EVEN if it only hits one direction, dig it!

 

[morelic55]

That's exactly the way the Xterra acts on deep relics also!!!!

 

[Digger]

I'd agree that visual TID is not what I use to determine whether to dig or not. But I'd be curious how many tones you guys are running? I'd also comment that if he is getting a 21 - 32 - 39 - 24 in four passes, it is time to get his X-50 fixed. HH Randy

 

[pescadore]

Thanks for that information. I am getting more comfortable with the X-50 and I am starting to dig more iffy signals. I had not had much luck with nickels until this last weekend and I dug two out of a real trashy area. We are getting rain here today but when it dries up, I am going to try you over 6" theory and see how it works at my local park. So far most of the deep signals I have had can be eliminated by raising the detector up 7 or 8 inches and still getting signals. So far if I still get a signal, it's an aluminum can.

 

[Beale]

Very good info! Most times when I get a wheat it hits in the 36-38 area, Beale.

 

[Goes4ever]

I'd agree that visual TID is not what I use to determine whether to dig or not. But I'd be curious how many tones you guys are running? I'd also comment that if he is getting a 21 - 32 - 39 - 24 in four passes, it is time to get his X-50 fixed. HH Randy

nope mine was same way on everything in this park, that is why I called him over to be sure he was digging these type signals. I got the exact response on all deep coins, it would give me a wild swing in numbers everytime I ran my coil over it, it would jump from low 20's to mid 30's and back. That is how this park is. But the tone was nice and smooth so i dug. If you rely on numbers only, you WILL skip these targets.

 

[7centsworth]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[baggins]

Thanks for the info....I will file this away..
Baggins

 

[Digger]

I agree that deep targets are not as accurately identified as shallow targets. That is one of the shortcomings of any modern discriminating metal detector. Add to the mix of adjacent targets with different ferrous or non-ferrous values, and both visual and audio indications will become skewed. I agree, don't rely on the TID to be the only determining factor in deciding whether or not to dig a target. That is why I tout the "three rules of consistency". Location, audio and visual, in that order. Frankly, location is the most important factor of the three. Regardless of how deep the target might be, if it is a "good target", it won't change locations when you X over it.

The reason I commented on getting his X-50 repaired is because the TID reading of 32 that you said he got on the old wheat is not possible on the X-50. The X-50 and 505 have three digit notch segments. And a TID of 32 is not one of them.

Based on your getting a smooth high tone, regardless of the TID, I'd guess you were hunting in two tone mode? The reason I suggest that is because if you were using any other number of tones, you would not hear a target in the low 20's with the same pitch as a target in the high 30's. In other words, any target that bounces between 21 and 39 (as did the wheat cent you mentioned) would not produce a smooth, high tone in any other Target Tone setting except for two tone mode. Single tone would be a lower tone. Three, four and multiple tone modes would provide different tones for each of those two TIDs. I'm not saying that 2-tone is a bad thing. If your numbers are bouncing that much, it would probably be nice to have a steady tone to hunt by. But for those who want to get as much audio information as we can about targets, I'd still suggest using the multiple tone mode with a zero discrimination pattern. It is tough to get use to. But in multiple tone mode, you have a separate tone for each notch segment. If those TID numbers are bouncing around, so will the tones. The other benefit is that, when hunting in zero discrimination (and multiple tones), you won't be "nulling out" on anything as everything produces a tone based on the notch segment value. JMHO HH Randy

I would be interested to have you hunt that site using multiple tones and TID stability to see if those numbers (and tones) continue to bounce around. HH Randy

 

[Goes4ever]

yes my mistake, I noticed the x-50 had odd numbers, I am used to the even numbers on my x70. I was merely stating that when he went over the target 4-5 times as well as me, both his machine AND mine jumped from 20's to high 30's (different number every pass) and I am not sure what tone he was using, his headphones were on and I did not ask him. Yesterday I was using multi tones.

location did not change, ever since I remember you mentioning that I use that technique
and sound, when I saw smooth, I mean "not choppy" like a target with iron close by, it was what I call "smooth" maybe your definition of smooth and my definition are different. I simply mean not broken up or not choppy sounding, see what I mean............what are you meaning when you say smooth? same pitch of tone every pass?

 

[BarnacleBill]

If EMI is ruled out along with any machine problems then there is a strong possibility that the park may have ground fill. In many locales a convenient fill material was coal cinders as it needed to be disposed of regularly. Depending on area, the amounts may vary and also the time since it was dumped has an effect as composting takes place. Even in areas that look like loam there can be a certain mix of it. Looking at the pebbles closely will usually give it away.

Because of the nature of the cinders they can cause depth & ID issues with a jumpy response being very common. If the preceding is the cause then at least on the X70/X705 the Stability function can be tried to solidify the visual ID.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[Goes4ever]

BB, It is a possibility that fill is involved because all the wheats and silver I have dug in this park is in the 6-7" deep range and that is extremely deep for 1930-40's coins. Wheather or not it is coal, I have no idea. I do use the stability on my x-70, never turn it off, I have always used it since I got my x-70

 

[Des Dunne]

Hi Goes4ever,

"Typically", this can be due to a few things: incorrect GB, too much Tx power i.e. sensitivity cranked up or, a coil cable issue.
If it doesn't occur at other locations the coil issue could be ruled out and Barnacle Bill's in-fill theory could be to blame?
Just recently, I became aware of a female customer having "jumping numbers" on her new X-705: to help her out some,
I shot a few video clips and she found them helpful.
They can be seen on www.mlotv.com
Look for "X-Terra Sounds Iron and non-iron" and "X-Terra sounds Part 2"
There's also another clip on there showing the Advanced Feature Coins Stabilzation Mode or Coins Plus +" on the X-7 models

Good Hunting

Des Dunne
Minelab

 

[Goes4ever]

I am not sure why everyone here is trying to "FIX a problem" there is no problem to fix. Sometimes a deep coin will jump around alot, that is all I was trying to share with people. Wanted to share how my friend was ignoring these deep signals because he assumed they were junk, but I have enough hours on my x-70 to know what it was telling me, I have learned its language. All I was trying to do was explain that you cannot always trust the numbers. Jumpy numbers DO NOT automatically mean trash. I love iffy singnals because I know a lot of hunters will walk right by and dismiss them as junk.
And this particular park they are really jumpy when they get to the 6" mark. I don't have any problem to fix, I am happy as can be with my x-70

and Des as stated above 100% of time I use the stabilzer, it never gets turned off

 

[pplinker]

This is a real interesting. I never knew that deep coins cause the jumpy signals, i thought it meant there was a bunch of trash side by side. Also very interesting to learn about the stability function, and that coal can cause instability. Good thread.

 

[BarnacleBill]

I don't think it's so much fix a problem as how to adapt for maximum performance for a given situation. From the inception of this forum it has been a little different than other forums in that several of the newly released X-terras were handed over to experienced hobbyists for evaluation. That set in motion a forum with members that very quickly developed a broad knowledge base that would normally take several years to evolve. As these first users were from across the U.S. and also overseas, plus involved in different concentrations of the hobby, detector behaviors that were dependent on those factors were rapidly recognized and issues addressed.

Your post presented a detector behavior without an explanation as to the cause of the behavior. And since the behavior could have a negative consequence in finding deep coins, then there is a reaction on the part of the forum members to learn more about it through you, and also find a way of improving on the behavior. Therefore it's not so much fixing anything as it is discovering more about the behavior to improve "our" collective ability with the X-terra.

Personally I always try to think about the Lurkers that are new to the X-terra or are new to the hobby, and look to learn something when a relevant topic is posted. So for example in this case, if it were not you with the experience you have, but a new X-terra owner who happened to start off in a Park like the one you are visiting, I think of what their reaction might be. I believe it might be that there's something wrong with the detector or coil or otherwise.

Now since you labeled the thread "Jumpy numbers at the park" and it has already 150 views, that tells me there is concern or interest into learning "why"? And with the history this forum has in always trying to expand the knowledge base to help members both current and future, you might as well throw Hamburger into Shark infested waters!

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[Canewrap]

Randy, you said," . Regardless of how deep the target might be, if it is a "good target", it won't change locations when you X over it." I know that's true because I've experienced the moving signal is junk phenomena as well. But, is it because of an irregularly shaped target, like foil, scatters the signal so that it will seem to come from different directions? I assume a coin, tilted downward, won't do this the same way?

 

[Digger]

I think there are several factors, depending on whether or not you are using any discrimination. If you are using discrimination, and the target is "on the brink" of being rejected, it will appear to move when Xing over it. If you are not using discrimination or that particular target is not rejected out, you can determine a lot about it due to the size or shape. LIke you said, irregularly shaped targets, such as crumpled foil, will tend to "scatter the signal". If after digging that foil, you wadded it up into a tight ball or coin shaped target and scanned it again, it will behave much differently. Rusty iron will seem as though it has bled into the soil surrounding the target, casusing the audio signal to waver as you move the coil on top of it. I refer to those tones as "harmonics" when using multiple tone mode. As to coins on edge...... The center of the target location will not move. But the target signal from varying directions will not be the same. Depending on the depth and target size, you may get a solid tone from one direction and maybe one or two very short "clipped tones" from a perpendicular direction. These clipped tones seem to come when the edges of the coil pass over the target opposed to what we consider "normal" detecting when the detector beeps when the coil is centered over the target. Sweep speed also plays an important role in the audio produced by most any targets. And those on the fringe seem to be more easily identified (broken tone) with a fairly rapid sweep or very slow sweep (harmonics). HH Randy

 

[TURNMASTER]

Interesting thread, good stuff

 

[qkslvr]

I want to thank all of you for this post. I had an x50 for 2 years, but recently upgraded to the x705. Since I got the 705, I have been frustrated by the TID numbers I have been getting. With the x50, generally numbers never shifted more than 2 (36-38, 16-18, 10-12) unless you had a bad target. I find with the 705, the numbers do jump around more on good targets (pennies can be 36-38-40 on the same target) . I use the 18.75 DD 6" coil a lot, and this occurs more frequently with this coil. The stock coil is more consistent, but still seems to jump more than the x50. The only thing I do differently with the 705 vs the 50, is that I can ground balance automatically. With the 50, my hearing wasn't good enough to distinguish the manual GB tones, so I ran it close to factory preset.

I just got a 3khz coil, so I'm interested to see if there will be any difference. I do run my sensitivity between 25-28, so I am running hot.