issue with my X-5 coil...

[sgoss66]

Hi all...

I'm borrowing a friend's X-5 coil, testing it out on my Explorer, and hope to purchase it from him. I've hunted about 8 hours with it so far, and while I like the coil, I'm having trouble hitting a coin beyond a 5". To try and figure this out, I did some testing in my test garden, and here's what I found. The issue is, when sweeping slowly through my test garden and pretending not to know where the targets are, just sweeping slowly as I would in a "hunt" situation, this coil will most often NOT hit on a 6" coin on that "one sweep" over the coin. So, I did alot of testing with different sweep speeds -- my normal slow speed, a VERY slow sweep, a CREEPING slow sweep, a very fast sweep. But, no matter what sweep speed I used, the coil tended not to give even a chirp on the 6" coin, on that one initial pass over the target (the MOST CRITICAL pass, of course -- as that one pass is the one where, when out hunting, you need to hear some chirp or hint from the target, to get you to stop and investigate).

NOW, if I stopped OVER the target (because I knew it was there), and did the "Minelab wiggle," I could get the 6" dimes/pennies/quarters to EASILY start sounding good. The coil would "lock on" to the target and start giving me very good, consistent, repeatable audio, from all sweep directions/angles, AND GOOD ID information. Now, while I could not get the 8" or 10" silver quarter to hit very well, even with the wiggle (there may be some small iron nearby causing some masking issues on some of my coins), I could get the 8" dimes to sound decent at times, and I could even get some possible "diggable" information on the 10" and the 12" clad quarters. BUT -- again, that's doing the "Minelab wiggle" over the known location of the coins, and waiting for the machine to "lock on" to the target. Once the "lock on" happened, the machine with this little coil is capable of some pretty impressive depth. But, again, on that initial sweep over the target, even the 6" targets it would usually "miss," giving nary a chirp -- and thus, in the field, I'd pass right on by not even knowing I had moved over a target.

I tried changing settings on my machine, to see if I could get that "initial hit." I switched from 8 gain (which I normally use) up to 10 (max) -- no better. I tried running max sensitivity (I usually run 28-30 with this coil), nope. I tried running deep=on, no joy. Deep=off, nada. I could find no way to get a chirp on that "initial pass" on my 6" coins, except on a rare occasion -- maybe 10% of the time, that "first pass" would chirp at me.

Hmmm...this explains why I'm not digging anything deeper than 4-5". It's not that the coil cannot "lock on" to a deeper coin, but instead, the issue is it can't seem to "see" it, when just making one sweep across the coin. ONLY the "Minelab wiggle" will make the coin appear...but if doing a "one pass" over the coin, and it doesn't usually give even a peep. It's amazing to me how a deeper coin that won't even give a HINT, when passing over it once, will -- if you stop and do the "Minelab wiggle" over it -- within a second or two sart to "lock on," and afterward, will give really good, consistent audio and ID information. Bizarre!

Don't know what to do about this...any thoughts?

Steve

 

[DaugBiscuit]

Steve....... I have an interest in your experience with the X-5 because I bought one, it arrived yesterday; it was raining all day today or I would have taken it to the park. Tomorrow however I will take it to my test garden and see how it reacts and will let you know.

In your post above you told us your normal setting for Gain and Sensitivity but where do you usually set your Variability/Limits and what do you normally do with Fast/Deep? I am asking because I will try the same settings to see what mine will do using your settings with the X-5 (I realize soil conditions will be different and my comparrison may not be dependable). Secondly, with you normal settings, and lets say the Pro Coil, would you easily get a hit on a dime at 6, 8 or 10" with a slow sweep? Let's say you did the same thing in your test garden and pretended you didn't know what was there or how deep, would you normally get a chirp at those depths. (I'm assuming the answer is yes, of course).

I ask because sometimes I will not get even a chirp in my test garden when I sweep as if I didn't know that dime was down there even 7" inches deep. Makes me wonder how many deep coins I'm missing - I know there are several.

Your question is certainly appropriate for the 'Classroom' forum but I'd like to see you move it to the Explorer forum because I have found that not everyone checks the posts here, especially the more knowledgeable and experienced people whom I know are better qualified to answer than I. It seems that not many come to class anymore. I personally check it every time I visit the website forum

I will be watching to see if you receive some responses for others.

Don

 

[Hotcz70]

If it was posted on the regular Explorer forum I would have had to move it here anyway.

Hopefully some people chime in...and surely they will when they get time.

 

[sgoss66]

Don --

I usually, with the Pro Coil, run gain 8, Sensitivity somewhere mid 20s manual, IM 22, deep off, fast off, variability 10, limits 10, threshold just barely audible and at the "lowest" pitch...pretty close to Bryce's settings (though he would take me to task for the 8 gain and the digital screen vs. the smartfind screen! )

I do think some of my issue is related to my particular soil. My test garden is notoriously tough on detection, one, because it is relatively new (9 months old), and two, because of the iron mineralization in the soil. So, that's part of the issue.

To answer one of your questions...in my normal settings, with the Pro coil, I would easily get a hit on the first sweep with the 6" dime, and the 8" quarter, BUT, this is something I have not spent alot of time testing specifically. I have done this SOME, with the Pro coil and the 6x8; I only did this test more thoroughly with the X-5 because of the limited depth to which I have been "seeing" coins in the field, and was trying to ascertain "why" that might be the case. I will go out there, and do the same testing with my Pro coil soon -- acting as if I did not know the coins were there and see what happens exactly on the different-depth coins at different sweep speeds.

I do not want to "assume" too much here; it is POSSIBLE that I have just not SWUNG over many deep coins in the field, in this short time using this coil. Coins in this dense, red clay we have here in OK often DON'T sink deeper than 4" to 5" or so in many cases; often, the ones that are deeper are in either locally better (softer, more organic) soil, or in places where some fill dirt has been spread atop the native ground. I hunted today with my PRO coil, and didn't find a coin deep. But, having said all this, this X-5 coil, in my test garden, seemed to be extreme in the "no signal at all" on a normal sweep, but then jumping to a "GREAT" signal after "lock-on" when doing the "wiggle." I know from prior testing that on more "fringe" depth coins for my Pro coil, if it has a hard time hitting it on a normal sweep, then -- while the "wiggle" will help a bit, generally the improvement is marginal. On THIS coil though, it seemed more drastic. To completely miss a 6" dime/penny, and then to have it start sounding GREAT once the "wiggle" allowed the coil to "lock on" to the coin, was surprising to me. This seemed a much more DRASTIC difference than other coils. But again, I need go out and do more testing of the Pro coil and see what it does, on different-depth coins, on that "one sweep" over the coin.

I am NOT disappointed with this coil. It's a VERY stable coil, and seems to be very good at separating targets in trash. It's just that I personally haven't seen the depth others seem to get -- but, having said that, I don't see the depth that others get on OTHER coils, either. PROPORTIONALLY, this coil is not that far off. The deepest coin I've dug with my 6x8 SEF coil has been 7 1/2" (a dime), the deepest dime I've dug with this coil is about 5 1/2" (in the short time I've used it). So, while it probably should do a LITTLE better (I would have expected it to be a little closer to the 6x8 SEF coil's depth range), it may prove to BE that, after more use. This is just my initial observation.

On a little bit of a side note (sorry for going "long-winded" here, but some may find this rambling of some use)...I wanted to yap a bit about this whole idea of "lock-on." I have used several "single frequency" detectors, and this whole "lock-on" thing is a moot point, with those. This characteristic seems seems to me to be FBS-specific (though it might be true on other multi-frequency machines, I don't know). Anyway, we know that different frequencies are more "resonant" with different types of metals -- lower frequencies being more resonant with high-conductive coins and other items, and higher frequencies more resonant with low conductors. If I recall correctly, lower frequencies are also less resonant with iron. What seems to be happening, to me, with these detectors, is that they seem to favor some "neutral" frequency as you hunt. Then, as you sweep over a target, and your machine "sees" the target, and you start to "wiggle," the machine seems to start running through whatever algorithms or analysis that it does, to see what frequency is most resonant with the given target. It then seems that once it "finds out," it then "locks on" with that frequency to give you your ID info. Now, I could be TOTALLY wrong about this, but I have seen a million times where I get a decent-sounding chirp on an initial pass over a target, and then when I stop to "wiggle," the signal remains "choppy," or even degrades -- even to the point of a null many times. It's almost like the machine said "I got a hit in the "neutral" frequency I was using, but now as you wiggle, I have been given time to see that this target is most resonant with an iron-favoring frequency, so I'll stay in that frequency and spit out an "iron" ID, or a "null" for you." On the other hand, I have had exactly the opposite happen; I get the same decent-sounding chirp on that initial pass, and then when I stop to "wiggle," the signal starts to quickly improve, and sound like a good coin (i.e., the "lock on" I look for). It's almost like, in THESE cases, the "wiggle" allows the machine to say "I have determined that THIS target is most resonant with low frequencies, so this is more likely a high-conductive, good target -- so I'm going to stay in this lower frequency, and give you a nice "coin"-type ID." This is what it seems like, to me.

SO, to bring this all the way back around, it just seems like with this small coil, in my irony soil, the "normal" (higher?) frequency the machine defaults to might not be penetrating to as deep of a depth as it otherwise would, but when WIGGLING over a coin-like target, and the machine then switches to that "lower" frequency based on what it is seeing of the target, THEN you get better depth penetration with THAT frequency, and thus the much more solid, and deeper, "lock on."

Who knows...just speculation. Is it me, or has anyone else noticed this "lock-on" thing I describe, where an initial chirp will either "degrade" to junk tones (or nulls) on a "bad" target during the "wiggle," or will "improve" during the wiggle, if it's a good target?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve....... I have an interest in your experience with the X-5 because I bought one, it arrived yesterday; it was raining all day today or I would have taken it to the park. Tomorrow however I will take it to my test garden and see how it reacts and will let you know.

In your post above you told us your normal setting for Gain and Sensitivity but where do you usually set your Variability/Limits and what do you normally do with Fast/Deep? I am asking because I will try the same settings to see what mine will do using your settings with the X-5 (I realize soil conditions will be different and my comparrison may not be dependable). Secondly, with you normal settings, and lets say the Pro Coil, would you easily get a hit on a dime at 6, 8 or 10" with a slow sweep? Let's say you did the same thing in your test garden and pretended you didn't know what was there or how deep, would you normally get a chirp at those depths. (I'm assuming the answer is yes, of course).

I ask because sometimes I will not get even a chirp in my test garden when I sweep as if I didn't know that dime was down there even 7" inches deep. Makes me wonder how many deep coins I'm missing - I know there are several.

Your question is certainly appropriate for the 'Classroom' forum but I'd like to see you move it to the Explorer forum because I have found that not everyone checks the posts here, especially the more knowledgeable and experienced people whom I know are better qualified to answer than I. It seems that not many come to class anymore. I personally check it every time I visit the website forum

I will be watching to see if you receive some responses for others.

Don

 

[DaugBiscuit]

Steve..... I was able to get out today and test the new straight-out-of the box X-5 coil and here are my test results. Basically all I was testing for was to see if this coil on my machine would hit on the coins you were having trouble hitting by duplication your settings. So, first thing I did was to match your settings and then I did the test. Using a slow to medium sweep I was able to hit on a dime 6" deep and get a chirp at 7" but it did not detect a dime 8" deep - this was running in semi-auto mode. I switched to manual but still could not pick up a dime at 8", it would pick up a quarter but not a dime.

By the way, my normal settings are almost to a 'T' what yours are except I normally run with Fast-Off and Deep-On with my Gain on 9.

I tried bumping the Sensitivity up to 30 but still I couldn't get the 8" dime, not even with a Minelab "wiggle".

But, having said that, my machine would NOT pick up a dime in my garden before, even with the pro coil or the FBS 800 coil. So, as far as depth is concerned there is no difference between coils in my 'trash-free' garden. I do not expect to see any difference in the field other than the smaller coils ability to separate more efficiently in a more trash infested environment.

I hope others will chime in on this discussion too and maybe offer some suggestions about this coil and depth and to also add their thoughts on the "lock-on" you speak about. It has been my tendency to walk away if I cannot get the machine to lock onto the target as you speak about. I was wondering when you said, "It's almost like the machine said "I got a hit in the "neutral" frequency I was using, but now as you wiggle, I have been given time to see that this target is most resonant with an iron-favoring frequency, so I'll stay in that frequency and spit out an "iron" ID, or a "null" for you." When this happens do you dig or walk? Or do you only dig if it "locks-on" to the target?

Interesting discussion, thank you for starting it.

Don

 

[sgoss66]

Don --

I much appreciate your testing and reply. Very much so.

To answer your last question first -- if the coil "does not lock on" with a good ID, but goes instead to a degraded tone or even a null, I walk (that's almost ALWAYS a nail for me, I have learned over time). I have learned to dig ONLY the "good" lock-ons. I'm sure I'll miss the occasional "coin mixed with a nail" type of target, but this is how I've learned to minimize the iron I dig, and also find more coins in the process (as I'm not stopping to dig as many rusty nails and thus wasting time).

One thing...you said this:

]But, having said that, my machine would NOT pick up a dime in my garden before, even with the pro coil or the FBS 800 coil.

Did you mean that your machine would not pick up on that 8" dime before -- is that the one you are referring to that you could not pick up with even the Pro coil or FBS 800?

Finally, when you said using my settings, you could "hit on" the 6" dime, do you mean that it would consistently hit on that "first pass" over the coin, or only using a "wiggle?"

Thanks again!

Steve

 

[DaugBiscuit]

Steve......... You were asking me about the statement I made about my machine would NOT pick up a dime in my garden before, even with the pro coil or the FBS 800 coil. Your question was:

Did you mean that your machine would not pick up on that 8" dime before -- is that the one you are referring to that you could not pick up with even the Pro coil or FBS 800?

Yep, there have been times that I couldn't even pick up a 7" or an 8" in my garden. But, using your settings, on this test I did get a chirp on the 7" but nothing on the 8" with the X-5. Maybe it was the settings or maybe it was because it had rained the day before.

You also ask the following question:

Finally, when you said using my settings, you could "hit on" the 6" dime, do you mean that it would consistently hit on that "first pass" over the coin, or only using a "wiggle?"

I meant that it would consistently hit on the 6" dime on that "first pass" with ease every time. There was no mistaking that there was a dime there on every slow to medium sweep. After doing the test I was able to go to a local park for a few minutes this afternoon, I took the X-5 and my SE. I dug a lot of twist tops and a few shallow dimes plus some pennies but at one point I got that sweet sound on a deep coin. It was a wheat 1952 'D' penny and it was exactly 8" deep. I was pleased about that, 8 inches is a deep coin in my book. It hit on the first pass and locked on after the Minelab wiggle while I pinpointed it perfectly. I think I will like the X-5. Unfortunately I couldn't stay long or I'm sure I could have found more good stuff.

Don

 

[detecterx]

This topic might be something Ralph from sun ray could comment on

 

[wayne_etc]

I had an X-5 briefly but sold it. For me the coil was simply too small and the depth was poor. I was getting maybe 4'' max in the field (in my highly mineralized red clay crappy soil).
I'm wondering if maybe your expectations might be a little high for a coil this small. Personally I wouldn't expect a coil to get much deeper than it's size. Expecting a 5" coil to reliably hit a dime at 8" seems a little lofty.

Again, just my thoughts. Your mileage might vary.


w

 

[DaugBiscuit]

Hi Wayne..... you have an interesting take on the subject when you said;

Personally I wouldn't expect a coil to get much deeper than it's size. Expecting a 5" coil to reliably hit a dime at 8" seems a little lofty.

Are you saying that you believe the depth is directly proportionate to the size of the coil? Personally I would expect a 5" coil to go just as deep as any other coil when placed on the same machine. In my last post did you read where this afternoon I hit on a wheat 1952 'D' penny and it was exactly 8" deep? That was using the X-5. I was under the impression that depth was determined by the punch in the detector and soil conditions more than the size of the coil. Maybe I'm missing something, please explain.

Don

 

[wayne_etc]

Yes. Generally speaking I would assume that a 5" coil would get you ABOUT 5". An 11" coil would get you about 11" (in optimum conditions). Ground conditions play a big part. In my soil 8" on a coin is a stretch for any coil. Explorer, etrac, whatever. There's NO WAY I'm getting it with a 5 or 6" coil.

Again, generally speaking, the bigger the coil the deeper the depth. I wouldn't expect a small coil to go as deep as a large coil.


w

 

[MNCoinhunter]

The whole point of the X-5 and other small coils is to better separate the good from the bad in trashy areas. I think that expecting a 5 inch coil to pull coins, and more specifically in a test garden, from beyond 5 inches is expecting too much.

 

[sgoss66]

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Don -- that 8" wheat is an AWESOME job.

detecterx -- I have sent an email to Ralph at SunRay, funny you mentioned that. He is willing to bench test my coil, if I want him to do that.

Guys, I don't expect 8" dimes. Especially here, as I am in similar red-clay soil as what it sounds like you have, wayne. And YES, this is a "trash" coil, not a DEPTH coil. But, having said that, I really would like this coil to hit a 6" dime consistently, and a 7-8" quarter consistently. If it cannot, I will be missing some good, older coins. I think it CAN reach these depths, even in my soil, but that remains to be seen. My biggest concern at this point, though, is to make sure that this coil is "in line" in terms of depth, with any other X-5 (i.e. it is NOT a "cold" coil, while some are "hotter.") If this IS the maximum performance I can get here, in my soil, then no other 5" coil will do any better and I'm good with it. BUT -- I guess I was thinking that a 6" dime or penny would be a do-able coin, given that some (in better soil) hit dimes to 7" or 8" with it.

Bottom line, it's a NICE coil, and my soil is difficult. My Pro coil can struggle on an 8" dime in this soil...

Steve