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Is the Ultimate 13 the best choise?

swingnlow

New member
I bought the Ultimate 13 for my SE pro hoping it would see through the heavy mineralized soil I have around here and get more depth--so far I have not noticed any change except better coverage because of size. The soil is so bad I have troubles using my garrett pro pointer, it sounds off just touching it to the dirt.
I am not noticing any difference between the U13 and my pro coil.

Would I have been better off with the 10x12 sec?

PS on a side note.... I put the pro coil on my XS and WOW what an improvement ... Much better depth and separation
 
Wanted to add about the depth in this soil ... I can only get about 6 inches which is what I was getting with the pro coil.

All help and advice is greatly appreciated.
 
What happened to the edit button?

Also important to mention is I have the 6 inch Excelerator coil and can reach 9 inches.
 
as I believe he did some pretty thourough experimenting in his mineralized ground.

Maybe he can shed some light on your question.

No way I will tell you that you should have gone with the 10 x 12 SEF over the ultimate as it would be impossible for anyone to make that call for you. It has to be a decision you make.

My soil here in IL is moderate...so not too bad.

Sounds like your pro coil was working pretty well in your soil?

PS: The edit button feature disappears after 30 minutes...so you have only that time frame to edit your post or response.
 
After reading my posts you may think I was bashing the Ultimate 13 coil. If you did...you are very wrong. When I decided to order the U13 coil I went back to a small section of a park I have been to several times with different detectors. This small patch about 50 x 75 feet has produced wheaties at about 7 - 8 inches deep using my 6 inch exelerator, but with my pro coil i was unable to reach them. I went back over this section with both the pro and 6 inch coils to be sure I dug all targets I thought sounded good enough to hope were good, leaving only the ones that the more I played with them the worse they sounded. When I unpacked my Ultimate 13 coil I quickly installed it and went back to that section to try it out. To my amazement I found 3 dimes and 1 penny. All were between 2 and 4 inch deep...Big deal you say new money that shallow. WELL it WAS a big deal because this coil made it very clear and I knew for sure what it was before I dug. I know I have passed over them at least 30 times before. Each time they were so iffy or sounded too much like iron falsing that I passed on them.
That said I am VERY pleased with this coil. I am just curious if in this soil maybe the 10 x 12 sef coil would reach that extra inch or two to reach the silver and wheaties that have been in the 7 - 8 inch layer. My 6 inch coil finds them but is VERY slow going in a big field.

Randy
 
I have read that several of you have both coils.
Surely you have compared them.
Please share your results.
Thanks Randy
 
We have them in stock, and you will be surprised with how well they work!
JW
 
JW which coil are you referring to?
Can you tell me the differences between the Ultimate 13 and the 10x12 SEF?

New Update-
-I have been out more with the U13 and it seems that 3-4 inch is all I am able to achieve. It will display 6-7 inches but I can usually find it with my Garrett Pro Pointer before I start to dig.
- Another down side is I am having a lot of trouble pinpointing with this coil. The Pro coil I could always get dead center but this one is almost always on the cut edge of hole, in fact I have scratched most of them because of this. I guess it was a good thing they were all new money. I realize you may think 6-7 inch would be right if off center that much --- but after finding it with the Garrett pp and rescan with U13 over that spot it still shows 6-7 and when I dig it is 2-3 inches deep.

I figured with the bigger coil when it showed 6 it would really be 7, like with my 6 inch when it shows 6 inch it is really only around 4.
 
I have been using my buddy's some and it is a really "loud" coil over coins. Just gives a "bang" over keepers. I love the 10 x 12 too though and our soil here is moderate so I can't help you with a comparison. Good luck
 
I am not expecting any body to be able to give me comparisons in
My soil.
I would really enjoy hearing everyone's personal comparisons. The good, bad, and ugly if needed.
I use my detectors while on vacations and business trips, so I will be all over and in various soil types.
I have searched all over and the only part of a comparison I see is the Ultimate is louder. I have seen people say this and that about the two coils independently, but next to nothing on ultimate vs 10x12.
 
It should go deeper than what you are getting, call your sales person and get it swapped out.
 
I'll do my best Bryce...Honored to even be asked when we all know which way the wind blows on FBS coil opinions- meaning you are the one to ask on that.

So Swingnlow, being that I have soil that ranges from none, to mild, to high minerals, I guess I *might* be able to help just a tad in that one small respect, but as we all know no guarantees your soil acts like mine. One man's bad mineralization can be a very different animal to another.

Another dis-qualifier- Is that while I've owned 3 Explorers (soon to be #4), my experience with the 12x10 and Ultimate is on the Sovereign GT, and we all know coils can have very different results on different detectors they are made for. However, I will say that one of my hobbies is to read all I can on coils for the FBS and BBS machines across the web in some pretty obscure places, so I can at least say that in terms of the SEFs and the Ultimate, both coils appear to have very similar results on both the Sov/Excal and Explorer/Etrac machines they are differently made for. My testing, in fact, shows the Ultimate experiences I'm having pretty much mirror what Bryce said in his field reports. Same deal with the 12x10. But, that said, still take my "BBS opinion" with a healthy grain of salt and seek final word from those in your "tribe". :biggrin:

Now that's I've covered my behind with enough disclaimer to ward off most criticism, I'll say this about the soil thing *in my case*...The 12x10 runs at much higher/smoother/more stable levels of sensitivity in my soil than my stock coil. Best coil I ever used, and let's just say the stock coil ain't no slouch, so that's saying a lot. The 12x10 is deeper, separates more "effortlessly" left/right wise, and even makes target response more "crisp". It's not only able to run over bad grounds at higher sensitivity levels without as much instability, but it's also less prone to EMI and so can run at higher sensitivity for that reason too.

I was talking compared to my stock 10" coil (which is a much better coil than the stock 10" coil on the old Explorers I owned), but in comparison to the Ultimate in bad soil, the meat of your question, here is the gist on that- The Ultimate won't allow me to run at the same sensitivity level as the 12x10, at least at some of my worse soil sites, or it will null out more. And that's not due to EMI on those occasions, because the way to tell EMI versus ground matrix instability issues is EMI chatter when the coil is held still, versus nulling or instability only when it's moved (meaning ground matrix issue).

That said, the Ultimate is a very stable coil for one of it's size, but is it's lower sensitivity setting at some sites mean less depth? At least my staged (freshly buried) tests...yes, because in one test I lowered the sensitivity slowly until the 12x10 would no longer sound off to a 6" clad dime, and then without touching the dial I put the Ultimate on and it wouldn't hear it either, but I had to raise the sensitivity much higher to finally hear it in any way than where the 12x10 finally lost the signal further below that.

That at least tells me the Ultimate is not deeper at the same low sensitivity setting. But is it deeper at higher ones? Much like a sprint versus marathon runner, perhaps it's more "in tune" with it's designed when sensitivity is maxed out to the edge of stability? I don't know if it's deeper or not than the 12x10 in my soil, or even as deep, but I can say thus far it's seen some deep undug targets as well as the 12x10 so far, and it does indeed make deep stuff louder, although I can hear deepies just fine with the 12x10 too.

Oh, and far as separation goes...Outstanding coil for it's size in the left/right respect. Shocking really.

So as to your question of minerals, at least in my soil I'd probably give the *initial impressions* of *perhaps* penetrating minerals better to the 12x10. Not by a big margin, and if only because the Ultimate appears to need less sensitivity to stop nulling out bad ground as much as the 12x10 can seem to get away with. That ain't a huge knock to the Ultimate, because many of us know the SEFs have a stellar reputation for running smooth over the worst of grounds. And even if the lower sensitivity of the Ultimate *for your soil* turns out to be true too, that doesn't mean it's getting less depth perhaps. Got to be something to that louder target response that might have something to say on the matter maybe.

This video below I did will show you at least in air testing it can handily see through two mineralized bricks just as well as the 12x10, and also it's excellent left/right separation on nail masking staged tests, along with even it doing well on an elevated nail masking test over a dime. Now, before anybody flames me for Minelabs and air testing...I know the real world is the only place where you can really see which way the wind blows, but just the same this testing points to things to look for in the field and prove one way or the other...

Warning: I went a bit overboard with pauses and text in this video testing 4 coils, so if you don't want to read just click the bubble icon to kill all text bubbles, and if you hit "play" three times at the start it'll skip the first three longish pauses at the start to give people time to read what is going to happen here. After that the video picks up steam quick and quickly bounces between 4 coils on each masking and brick test, so the results are fresh and constant in your mind. Very interesting stuff. I know it surprised me in a few respects, which I won't spoil for anybody who bothers to watch it...

http://youtu.be/bKesj7KjcXY

PS- The Ultimate appears to have very good coin on edge ability, like the 12x10. I dug a wheat straight up on edge with the Ultimate at a spot around a big tree that I test every machine and coil around over the years. I've absolutely pounded the snot out of the 10 foot diameter around this tree over the years to try to test a coil or detector. I know I passed over that wheat 100 times before for years, as it's one of my "testing trees" to do that. Now, I haven't worked the 12x10 around that tree prior to this, but the 12x10 has already proven it's great at on edge coins. Glad to see the Ultimate also showed me it is as well, and I'm not the first to say that either...

PS #2- The 12x10 seems to "ride in and out" of instability when riding the edge of sensitivity better, like a car going down a bad road using better shocks. The Ultimate isn't out of control in that respect, especially for a coil of it's 13" width by 12 & 1/2" length size, but for sure it's a tad more of a "bouncy" ride when hitting a pothole of EMI or bad ground for a second or two. Thought that might be important to you in terms of the possibilities for your ground. I'd also add this- The 15x12 I owned was not as deep as my stock 10" coil in my soil on coin/ring sized targets, despite it running stable at higher sensitivity settings. I suspect it just sucked in too much ground stew and washed out targets at depth *in my soil*. Not sure if the Ultimate is beyond the point of no return in terms of coil size *in my soil* to see any gains in depth, but I am sure it's very close to the 12x10 at least. Who knows, maybe it is as deep or deeper as the 12x10 in my soil, but I just haven't seen that one way or the other yet to say either way.

Hope this helps...
 
Wanted to add a few more things considering the possibilites of your mineralized soil, like mine perhaps in some respects...

First, your Pro Pointer sounding off to the ground matrix. I've had that issue too here and there. Simple fix- turn it on with the tip of the Pro Pointer touching the ground. It'll de-tune it a bit according to the ground minerals and fix the false sound offs. Works like a charm.

Second, as to my video link testing 4 coils, including the 12x10 and ultimate...If you look at the video description below it you'll see a link to a test on a MXT with a mineralized brick where an SEF saw better through the brick than a factory couil on that machine. Pretty much supports the reputation of the SEFs seeming to handle and penetrate minerals better than a typical coil.

Third, here's what I suspect about the unique shape of the SEFs...These coils have a very "sharp", well defined, and less "fuzzy" detection field. For that reason, I think perhaps they ride on and soak in less ground stew, so at depth they are less prone to wash out a target via the ground matrix they are soaking in. I'm thinking that a conventional round 12" DD coil might not show gains in depth over my stock 10" coil in my minerals maybe. Don't know if that's true, because I haven't used a 12" round coil in my soil yet to compare.

As for the Ultimate, it's not a typical round DD. Suspiciously it looks very much like a Pro Coil in shape, and I suspect it has a very tight/well defined field for that reason, and so it might be that it will show gains in depth in mineralized soil where as say a 13 or 14" round "conventional" DD might not, seeing too much ground.

As I said, I found the 15x12 didn't seem to get any more depth or perhaps even the same depth as my stock 10" round coil in my soil on coin/ring sized targets. And that's even with being able to often sensitivity full blast with the 15x12. In fact, I found in testing that often it would give best target ID at depth if I lowered the sensitivity about 1/3rd from what was max stable at a site. Turn it higher, and although stable, the target ID would start to get unstable and very hard to wiggle the right ID out of. I think that's due to it being tuned too hot with higher sensitivity levels and sucking up too much mineralization *in my soil*. The odd thing though is that in my mineralized beaches the 15x12 did get deeper than stock, just not in my mineralized soils for some odd reason. Still scratching my head on that one.

Your remark about your 6" coil getting deeper than the Pro Coil or the Ultimate in your soil...That is an old rule of thumb for detectors in very bad ground. I've seen it myself with my non-Minelabs in the past due to minerals and not even being masking related. However, it appears this issue is not as big of a factor on the FBS and BBS units due to the unique way in which they ignore the ground signal in some respects. I'm sure it can still be a factor in some soils (like it appears in yours to be), but it's more rare of a situation with the FBS/BBS units.

For that reason, I think the limits are more "thin" between size/depth on them in only the right locations for some people. If it is the case for your minerals, then it could very well be the 12x10 *might* see deeper than say a round 12 or 13" coil, and show you gains in depth over a smaller DD, only because of the sharp/well defined detection field so the SEF seems to ride on less ground, while still punching deep like a 12" coil (even deeper than that I think).

It also appears the SEFs very unique field generation (some say a hybrid concentric/DD field, with perhaps 80% being DD in traits) seems to punch through the ground minerals better than other coils, at least for some of us out there, and not even related to being able to run sensitivity higher. You can see that in my remarks about it hitting a dime at almost zero sensitivity compared to my stock coil or Ultimate, which both needed much higher sensitivity to finally see the dime again. But it might be the Ultimate is more "in tune" with it's design when ran at higher sensitivity levels perhaps. As said, thus far on undug marked targets at depth, the Ultimate has banged them just as well as the 12x10 for me, so I as of yet can't see any depth differences between them one way or the other.

Also the above being said, again...Your soil...So no way to say if the 12x10 might get deeper for you than other coils. All I can say is that Ultimate is one heck of a coil in both weight and balance and coverage to me, so I think it deserves to sit along side my 12x10 for any given day's hunt. The SEFs for some odd reason are lighter on the BBS units than FBS, and the 12x10 without a coil cover is both lighter than my 10" coil and is a dead match weight to the Ultimate, so it's not an issue of weight for me to like the Ultimate. It's the "feel" of the coverage and the balance of it on the shaft that just makes it feel so right to use, so especially in wide open areas where I want to max out coverage I'm wanting one.

The 15x12 is a good bit heavier, although still lighter than my 10" stock coil if a I ditch the coil cover. The 15x12 feels more stable and smooth and at higher sensitivity than the Ultimate in bad ground, but again I'm not knocking the Ultimate. The SEFs are a hard coil to beat in stability. The Ultimate is right up there with them in many respects in my soil, and for such a large coil it's stability for me is very impressive. I think anybody who owns a 12x10 or 15x12 has reason enough to also add an Ultimate to their line up perhaps. At least that's the way I feel about it *in my soil* thus far.

Hope this helps, and be sure to get advice from those FBS guys with soil that sounds similar to yours for any final decisions. Whatever you hear/read though, no gurantess, unless you get some input from somebody using both coils in your soil, and even then opinions can vairy...
 
Your best bet in really bad ground is going to be a small DD coil. The less ground it sees the better. Swing the coil over a spot with no targets and start raising the sensitivity until the ground starts talking to you then back it off a little. Thats about as good as you going to get.
 
thanks to all that responded. All very good advice. I know you all have put in alot of time and work to come to your level of knowledge. thanks for helping us.
 
Hey Swingnlow...Put it this way. If I had to bet money on the possibility of a larger coil gaining any depth in bad mineralization over a smaller coil, I'd lay my money on a SEF 12x10 as perhaps having the best chance at achieving that, due to the really sharp field they seem to generate to suck in less ground stew. Now, will it in your soil? No way to know of course until it's tried.

Also, far as your Ultimate goes...There might be a way to get it to go deeper than your 6" coil in your ground. Adjust sensitivity to max edge of stability. Then stick a dime deeper and deeper in the ground until you can just hardly still get a good coin ID out of it, and that in fact its right at the fringe now to where it's a bit junky of a signal.

Once you've found that sweet spot in depth for maxed out stable sensitivity you've got your machine set at, now start to lower the sensitivity in small steps and see if the coin gets easier or harder to ID. If it gets easier. BINGO! Running the coil too hot it's sucking up too much mineralization and washing out/degrading a target at depth. Keep playing up and down with the lower sensivity until you find the setting that seems to give the most "effortless" ID. That'll be where to run it then and you've figured out a way to increase the depth of a larger coil in your soil/minerals.

That's one of the ways I discovered the 15x12 gave me more useful depth with lower sensitivity than what was max stable for it in my soil. Usually I found about 1/3rd of the way down (at least) from max stable was where it seemed to give best ID at depth for the 15x12, though it still didn't get deeper than my stock 10" coil.

The other (and more better way) I found that out was when I hit a deep target with an unstable ID, I'd start lowering sensitivity and see if the ID stabilized and locked onto one ID #. If it kept bouncing around then probably an odd shaped piece of junk, but if it became more stable with lower sensitivity I then knew where to ride the 15x12 for a given site. Then I'd dig up the target and see what it was. Round in shape=ID should have stabilized like it did. Odd in shape= I'd do the test over again, because I wanted a round target or at least something uniform in shape like a round tab with no tail to judge by.

It became my routine to at least bury a dime at any new site at what I thought would be the edge of detecting depth and then compare lower sensitivity settings to max stable to see if they were better. Often they were, but I prefered the undug target calibration better as we all know freshly buried stuff can do strange things to a Minelab.

It might be that the "fog in the high beams" thing is coming into play with you, and you need to let the size of the coil work for you and not the sensitivity to see gains in depth.

If you do end up getting a 12x10 (remember, no gurantees unless you compare your Ultimate to somebody with a 12x10 in your soil), be sure to chime in and tell everybody if the 12x10 was able to show gains in depth over a smaller coil in your soil. I'm sure many would be very interested in hearing how that pans out, myself included.

Good luck...

PS- You might also look into an 8" Minelab coil. Might be that is the ceiling for gains in depth in your soil, being roughly only a few inches bigger than your 6" coil.
 
Thanks to all for the comments and help. I was able to get my hands in a 10x12 and use side by side. I did not find anything deeper than 6 inches so I still don't know depth, BUT .. the 10x12 was better at pinpointing, id, and telling it was junk. The ultimate 13 would just sound too good to not dig.
, while the 10x12 would have more of a broke up sound.
Needless to say I sent the U13 back and got the 10x12.
 
It's interesting you should say that, because I too have found the Ultimate is fooling me more on deep targets being a pretty good chance to be a coin. As I've been marking targets with poker chips, I'd lay out 10 chips on targets found with the Ultimate and then strap the 12x10 on and compare notes. More often than not a deep target I was sure was going to be a deep wheat when I swept the Ultimate over it, the 12x10 clearly told me was going to be iron giving a false spike or some odd piece of junk doing the same thing. Digging them up confirmed it.

Now, could very well be that I'm just not used to the Ultimate's "language" yet and that will improve. Even if it doesn't, some times a percieved negative can be a positive. Might be that at fringe depth a coin will give a more solid hit with the Ultimate perhaps? I don't know either way, because thus far every deep target I've hit with the Ultimate that turned out to be a coin the 12x10 hit just as well, so I can't see any depth differences between them yet in my soil.

I did find yesterday though that the Ultimate for sure seems to give me more trouble working heavy trash than the 12x10 in terms of trying to ignore nearby targets while homing in on a coin I want to check out. But, just the same, in my video testing of 4 coils the Ultimate appears to have excellent left/right separation so much so that I couldn't see any difference at least in staged testing compared to the 12x10. So I don't know what to think yet, other than I know the Ultimate has outstanding left/right separation for a coil of it's size.

It's a great coil. Unique enough in it's own way that I plan to add one to my line up to sit along side my 12x10 when the loaner Ultimate goes back to the owner. Just for large open area hunting alone I enjoy it's increased coverage, although the 12x10 is still a nice step up in that respect over my stock 10" coil. Just that I seem to not have to hold my steps back as much with the Ultimate when making sure I don't miss any ground in front of my feet.

I have noticed the Ultimate is rather broad in it's sound off when I try to use the tip of the coil to pin point targets without switching to PP mode. I've been using the center in both disc and PP though here and there and it seems right on with it in that respect, just like the 12x10. Just that for using the tip when I want to the 12x10 is laser like and will put the target right at the base of the "V" shape at the end of the coil. Once again, could be though that once I learn the Ultimate it'll do that just as easily too.

Wish you would have compared them both on undug targets to see if either was getting any deeper for you in your soil. Of course if you start popping deeper targets with the 12x10 then that might be enough to know either way.
 
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