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In Case Anybody Missed It- Email From Minelab On How PP Functions On GT...

Critterhunter

New member
In case you bailed on the other thread, this is what I got in an Email from Minelab, and so it would appear that often taken for granted rules of thumb beliefs about it appear not to be true...

Dear Sir,

The Sovereign has two methods of Ground balance.

Automatic Ground Compensation this occurs whenever the detector is in Discriminate mode

Accu-Trak this is the Auto Tracking which occurs in the All-Metal/Track position.

The All-metal Fixed and Pin-point positions carry over the last Ground Balance setting used in Track.

So if you are searching in Discriminate, and flicking over to All-Metal/Pin-point, it may or may not be noisy depending on ground conditions, and the last Ground Balance setting in Track.

If you intend to use the all-metal Pin-point, it would be worth doing a ground balance in Track at the start of your hunt; and periodically re-balance.

Hope this helps, and if you have any further questions, let me know.
 
Critterhunter said:
In case you bailed on the other thread, this is what I got in an Email from Minelab, and so it would appear that often taken for granted rules of thumb beliefs about it appear not to be true...

Dear Sir,

The Sovereign has two methods of Ground balance.

Automatic Ground Compensation this occurs whenever the detector is in Discriminate mode

Accu-Trak this is the Auto Tracking which occurs in the All-Metal/Track position.

The All-metal Fixed and Pin-point positions carry over the last Ground Balance setting used in Track.

So if you are searching in Discriminate, and flicking over to All-Metal/Pin-point, it may or may not be noisy depending on ground conditions, and the last Ground Balance setting in Track.

If you intend to use the all-metal Pin-point, it would be worth doing a ground balance in Track at the start of your hunt; and periodically re-balance.

Hope this helps, and if you have any further questions, let me know.

Im sure you either misread, didnt understand or confused minelabs response if indeed you actually did contact them. Honestly I know you make alot of the crap you post up, mixed in with plaguerizing others posts as your own and then theres the thimblefull of knowledge you do have yourself. To many times youve run down a road of being adamant about something, only to find out later you never did it. Case in point is the pinpoint all metal debates we have had, and come to find out youve never tried it till recently, yet it was something you debated over a year ago. Same thing with the S5, how you said you use it as your trash coil and when most of us said we preferred an 8" size coil for our small coil, you debated that like everyone was wrong. Now you sell your S5, say you hardly used it(what really is the truth there, did you or didnt you, who knows and who cares) and are raving about the small tornado coil that youve probably havent even hunted. whats the point critter? your on some kind of read and repeat what others say tour and dont really hunt much do you? or ever have most likely from the blunders you make in your posts. Thats why they are so long, to confuse and null people out. They kinda hide the inexperience for you. Theres nothing wrong with inexperience, just acting like you know what your saying when you dont, thats the cruel part. Thats why many of us have given you a hard time. Keep it real and theres never a problem.

Back to your post in which you quote minelab responding to you, I should point out the XS through the Elite models of the Sov have no ground balance feature like the GT and yet they all have fully functioning all metal pinpoint modes that act just like the one on the GT, adjusting to whatever ground you swing over.
I have owned and hunted those Sovs. From the original to the GT, they all have the same pinpoint mode. You would know that if you actually used one. And what about all those Excals, same thing.

I told you before that if I caught you BSing I would expose it. Try thinking of the people who dont know once in awhile and consider that in your postings.
Crazyman was right about you wasnt he.
 
I just hope those new to the Sovereign and needs the help can see the difference, those that know our Sovereigns knows the difference from Experience.
I like to read others post about the Sovereigns and can tell those that spend the time to get to know it well and I will try different things from those experienced with the Sovereign, but all those post that some just read about someone else and re-post it I just shake my head and wonder what they are trying to prove.

Those with experience is the ones I want to pay attention to, those that just read about something and then telling other how to do it don't mean much to me.
 
8 years ago Minelab published there Sovereign GT User Manual on page,s 20 and 21 they explained ? how to GB the machine quit contrary to Minelab,s Dess Dunes video on the operation of the GT lol , the reason i have not ground balanced my GT before a hunt it reads there is no need to if you choose not to and i have never had a problem hunting that way just turn on and hunt . OK unless i was going to hunt Winslow. Meteor Crater in Arz. i might do a GB . :detecting: I been using my GT only 4 years and i do not consider my self a expert by any means i just do what has worked best for me . Jim
Page,s 20 and 21 user manual about GB
 
It my not be Critters fault.... i have serious doubts about MLs CS people even detecting. They told me they didnt cut my battery wire, which came back 3 inches shorter (and later admited they did) then told me i put my pods on upside down...... say what??? Got a couple of other zingers that makes you want to say.... SAY WHAT... like not want to repair a coil because i hunt to much and dont take the coil off the lower rod EVERYTIME?? I do have to admit hes got a lot of friends providing him posts. Id prefer personal experience rather than hearsay or read and repeat posts. I dont fault anyone for making the forum interesting and we all certainly dont agree...... but its based on our own experience in the field. Those that know do...... all others teach.
 
dewcon4414 said:
It my not be Critters fault.... i have serious doubts about MLs CS people even detecting. They told me they didnt cut my battery wire, which came back 3 inches shorter (and later admited they did) then told me i put my pods on upside down...... say what??? Got a couple of other zingers that makes you want to say.... SAY WHAT... like not want to repair a coil because i hunt to much and dont take the coil off the lower rod EVERYTIME?? I do have to admit hes got a lot of friends providing him posts. Id prefer personal experience rather than hearsay or read and repeat posts. I dont fault anyone for making the forum interesting and we all certainly dont agree...... but its based on our own experience in the field. Those that know do...... all others teach.

Do you remember some of the people minelab had working in the las vegas location? Sandy was customer relations, she new minelab useage pretty well being an advid hunter herself, but was no tech. when she got stumped on a question, she often handed the phone over to Dick and he was the guy who could answer most anything. Dew you could be correct here, who knows who responded to critter, if he did indeed inquire about this.
I am no electonics guy and have no bones about admitting that. I have used the sov since it came out and from what Ive seen every single model uses the same all metal pinpoint mode. In fact if I remember the earlier manuals like the XS or Elites even mention about hunting in pinpoint, whereas the newer GT manual says not to. Go figure on that one.
One thing is for sure, all metal pinpoint adjusts somehow to the ground just like the disc does, you dont have to do anything, and thats a fact from using them.
Ive owned and used alot of detectors with all metal and they all had to be ground balanced over and over again or they become erratic over varying soils. Remember I mostly beach hunt so anyone who has done that certainly knows theres a heck of a difference between dry sand and wet sand. Try not adjusting your ground balance in all metal(unless there is a tracking feature and your using that) with an mxt, tesoro, fisher, teknetics, over differnt soils, and you will see a difference in performance but you do not see this in all metal pinpoint on the sov. that was my point from the get go and the reason I called out critter for trying to bs people about this.
Like Rick says, you really have to be careful who your listening to. No amount of reading is gonna replace actual in field hunting and getting your hands dirty.
 
From elsewhere...

critterhunter said:
Tony said:
I have used many PI's over the past 10 years, including Minelab SD200v2, Goldquest SS, Deepstar2 (Borrowed), SeaHunter MKII.
At the moment, as I am 90% in the water, I only have the Garrett.
Luckily I have had my Sovereign for many years and could always compare against all the PI's I got to use.
Are you ready for my conclusion;
The Sovereign was as deep or deeper than all of the PI's on the beach (dry, damp, saturated). Big statement I know but 100% true.
Generally, the sand was clear of black sands where the Sovereign would struggle/false in DISC (but in PP was still surprisingly good). I think this is due to the search pattern in PP where it it seeing such a narrow field of material but is concentrated??.
But out in the black sand free with the stock coil and full sens (yep, 9 o'clock position), the depth blew me away.
I also have Shaun's AMP which unfortunately doesn't work at the moment (and he wont get back to me...grrrrrr) and that got me an extra 15% on top of what I was already getting.
To be honest, I don't post those findings much because I have gotten quite a few doubters who consider me delirious by my findings.
That's okay, I just detect behind many of them and excavate holes for the rings.........average men's wedding band to 15".
I recently detected a beach that was covered in beer caps......had to use DISC to remove them (247 in total)....and then switched to PP and picked up 2 nice gold rings down around 13" to 14".
Maybe this DISC/PP "which is deeper" does differ between the Sovereign/Excals????
I have checked about 6 machines and PP was always deeper. PP lets you dial in so much power and there is no falsing at all although I couldn't achieve this max power with my WOT and SEF......makes sense really as a bigger coil is a bigger antenna !
I hope this helps
Thanks,
Tony.

PS.....I had all this data on a spreadsheet on an old hard drive which has since died so I can't retrieve it.

Tony said:
With the Sovereign I always Track > Fix > PP.
HH
Tony

Tony, it looks like there might be a method to your madness in setting the ground balance in all metal tracking mode before switching to PP, because I got this in an Email from Minelab asking just what the realities of the manual saying "PP is a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance" were...

Dear Sir,

The Sovereign has two methods of Ground balance.

Automatic Ground Compensation this occurs whenever the detector is in Discriminate mode

Accu-Trak this is the Auto Tracking which occurs in the All-Metal/Track position.

The All-metal Fixed and Pin-point positions carry over the last Ground Balance setting used in Track.

So if you are searching in Discriminate, and flicking over to All-Metal/Pin-point, it may or may not be noisy depending on ground conditions, and the last Ground Balance setting in Track.

If you intend to use the all-metal Pin-point, it would be worth doing a ground balance in Track at the start of your hunt; and periodically re-balance.

Hope this helps, and if you have any further questions, let me know.


Now, if what this person told me is true in how PP functions (?), then looks like you were dead on with your remark about using all metal tracking mode before flipping to PP. Also, your thoughts that one of the reasons PP might be so deep being that it might have something to do with..."I think this is due to the search pattern in PP where it it seeing such a narrow field of material but is concentrated??"...sounds like as good of a theory as any to me on one of the reasons it might handle bad ground better and seeing super deep. It may be ignoring surrounding ground more and so concentrating it's look deeper without other "distractions".

Another reason might be PP not ignoring iron might be keeping it from choking out on non-ferrous targets in soils or sands with heavy microscopic iron concentrations that might overwhelm disc and null out the target perhaps? I know I have found at one particular beach with very bad microscopic iron and black sand PP was seeing coins at around 5" or so that disc just plain out was choking or even nulling completely on. That's still well within the range of BBS and it's legendary ability to handle the worst of grounds, so the only thing I can figure is that all that microscopic iron in the sand was causing disc to null right out on some of these shallow non-ferrous targets.

You see, this is one of the reasons why I enjoy digging through old posts and hearing different opinions or theories to test out for myself. Somewhere in all that usually lies some realities, at least for some of us in some of our soils for certain things. Different perspectives can often be the key to finding some hidden answers that never would have otherwise been suspected.
 
Hello Critter,

Been a while since I've been on this forum.

I did all these tests some time ago and the PP phenomena still holds true today.
I think it's vital to accept that what works for me might not work for someone else....there are many variables that might produce different results.

My methodolgy of tracking, fixing and then AM/PP was after hours of testing against several buried rings and simply discovering what goes deepest. The beauty of the PP is full SENS can be dialled in but only on my stock 10" coil.... (SEF and WOT need a major reduction in SENS).
Even the smallest/deepest targets break the super stable threshold so cleanly and this is the secret to deep targets.

I always stated that the results of PP were a combination of;

1. My personal machine
2. My local beaches
3. My local conditions
4......and maybe some other X factors.

I think it's important to know what truly works for an individual considering the above factors.
My AM/PP amazed me to the extent that I haven't posted this anywhere else on the internet as it goes against most principles of Pi v VLF in so far as the "depth stakes" go.
So I just wander the beaches down here with my little Sovereign and 10" coil and dig gold rings all the way to China.
Now if only I can get someone to fix my Amp !!

I hope this post makes sense as I'm on my 4th vodka and orange......hey it's hot down here.....:beers:

HH
Tony.
 
Tony, thanks for chiming in. And no need to explain the drinks. Any excuse will do for me when I want to have a few cold ones. :biggrin: :beers: I can't use the "it's hot" thing though as it's bitter cold here right now.

I will now be trying to balance in the tracking all metal mode before flipping to PP, to contrast them and see if the depth gets even better than it's already outstanding job it's done at some of my real bad soil/sand sites. Can't imagine it getting even deeper than it already does with volume/sensitivity at full, but man if it does...:biggrin: I prefer the pump method in a clean spot to set the balance in tracking before flipping to the fixed all metal mode when I've used it. On prior machines with tracking I always found it threw off the ground balance a good bit when I was sweeping around over iron and such, which I never used tracking much anyway as I prefered setting a fixed balance to not risk tracking out deep targets.

On the WOT/SEF thing not being able to run at full sensitivity with PP...Haven't had issues with full sensitivity in PP with the 12x10, and often in disc I can even run full blast manual sensitivity with it too. Very stable coil. Was able to run the 13" Ultimate loaner I had at full blast manual at EMI-low sites, but it was a tad bit unstable where as the 12x10 was rock solid when I switched coils to compare. Are you talking of the 15x12? Had one. Deeper than the stock 10" Tornado in my mineralized sands, but not as deep as stock in my mineralized soils. Couldn't figure that out. The 12x10 is deeper than both in both sand/soil sites for me.

As a side note, this quote from Minelab might have answered a question I have had..."So if you are searching in Discriminate, and flicking over to All-Metal/Pin-point, it may or may not be noisy depending on ground conditions, and the last Ground Balance setting in Track."

By the sound of it, that seems to imply that all metal fixed mode does indeed hold the last ground balance it was set at, even after flipping over to disc and then back to fixed all metal mode or PP. I had wondered about that, since I wired a remote PP switch trigger on my grip...If I needed to re-balance in all metal tracking mode again before flipping over to fixed. I can set the stock switches to what modes I want to flip between and then use the remote PP to keep flipping back and forth to those two modes. A real time saver for reverse discrimination hunting on the beach when I'm in the mood to do that, mostly switching between PP and disc. Still not sure that's what they are implying above, but I plan to test that out in some really bad ground and see if when I flip back to Fixed or PP if the machine seems to have got noisy, having lost it's balance. Your opinion on that?

PS- Even when not running full blast sensitivity in PP, but rather what was stable for disc, and even with the volume all the way down as I prefer with my headphones in disc, PP was still punching much deeper than disc at one badly mineralized beach. And I mean not just as deep as the 5 or 6" disc was choking on due to the ultra bad mineralization, but rather much deeper. But yea, full sens/volume does show me more depth in PP, while lowest volume for me doesn't seem to cause disc to loose depth.

When I was testing out the loaner 13" Ultimate coil at a land site, I laid it down while the machine was still in PP mode, and was shocked to find out by accident as I grabbed my digger that PP/Ultimate was sounding off to my digger all the way behind the arm cup. I don't often use PP to pin point a target, as I can do it just as well in disc most of the time and prefer disc for that so PP doesn't drag me off a coin into some nearby iron or something. I had even pointed the digger at the coil so it presented a bit less of a image to it and it was still easy to hear it well behind the back of the arm cup. I'm a tall guy so my custom shaft is rather long. I bet the 12x10 would do equal depths in this "test" with the digger at full volume/sensitivity.

But anyway, man...can you imagine the implications for using PP and a larger coil like the 12x10 or Ultimate for cache hunting or large relics like canon balls? Not saying it'll get that kind of depth in the ground but just the same it might do some serious damage as a kind of cache/larger relic hunting beast. PP has shades of perhaps living up to the stellar depth claims of certain "ultra deep" speciality detectors used for coins and such, and with many of the same abilities (being able to tell iron from non-ferrous stuff), along with modulated audio that some of those machines don't even have. I think the thought of that possibility is pretty cool. A third machine lurking under the GT control box, and very similar in certain traits and abilities hinted to about those types of machines.

About your remarks of seeing what works in your own soil or sands- Yes, vital that various opinions or advice be proven or disproven for one's self in their own soil and specific mineralization. I have found, for instance, that the old rule of thumb that a super slow crawl with the Sovereign gives best depth just isn't the case at most of my soil/sand sites. I've tested this extensively on undug targets at fringe depth before recovering them, and found if I crawled at the turtle slow pace (say 4 seconds per sweep) often said to give best depth with a Minelab, that it simply won't even see the target at fringe depth. I have to increase my sweep speed (and this is in disc mind you) to about what I would call a medium speed for my Whites.

Now, is that my minerals, the 12x10 coil I'm using, or some other factor involved such as my sensitivity level I'm using on that day? Can't say for sure, but I've seen this happen on both sand and soil at I'd say 90% of my sites, in both good ground and bad. And I'm not talking about the fast wiggle or constast/fast short sweep many of us use to derive the hardest hit on a deep target to pull the best tone/ID out of it, but rather just a long general "looking for my next target" swing.

That's how I test it to figure out what speed the site wants for best depth/hardest hit on fringe depth stuff when I come across one. Often it's a pretty fast sweep (for a Minelab), and even at that faster pace I can unmask stuff right up against trash or iron. Only thing I can figure is maybe it's the 12x10 coil that makes the need for a faster sweep, if not my soil. The DD line on the 12x10 is so laser sharp that the increased speed doesn't have any issues with left/right unmasking separation, but of course proper investigation still requires I stop and wiggle at two "as one" targets to be sure about what I'm seeing.
 
For what it's worth guys... A totally NON-Scientific test...
.
With my Sovereign Elite and White's Surf PI Plus, I did some testing. Now I don't know for sure that my machines are both 100% factory set - I purchased both used from the same individual - but I do know that they both see deep targets.

This was done on a dry sand beach in Panama City Beach Fl on a day with no previous rain for about 6 days. I started hunting with my Sovereign ELITE in AM mode with the tone switch at Variable, Disc and Notch both at NONE and Sensitivity max'ed out but not at AUTO. With Threshold just barely audible, I hunted along until I hit a target and then switched to DISC mode from AM. SOMETIMES the target would "disappear" - NOT null out - or just couldn't be seen due to depth when in DISC mode. I recovered every target that this happened with and 95% were coins beyond 12 inches deep.

NOW AS A TEST... After hitting a target in AM that disappeared when switching to DISC, and before digging, I grabbed my PI machine and swept the area above the target. Each time the PI saw the target and the majority of the time it saw it easily. Maybe 10 % of the targets and only the very deepest (around 14 inches) caused the PI to "struggle" to convince me to dig them...

I have about 130 hours using each machine so I have similar experience on each. I firmly believe that my PI machine seems to get better depth in the water than it does on dry sand.
 
Good testing, but try PP mode on your Elite. Full sensitivity. Full volume. From what I've heard it's very different and deeper than the two other all metal modes, especially in the worst of grounds.
 
robby4570 said:
For what it's worth guys... A totally NON-Scientific test...
.
With my Sovereign Elite and White's Surf PI Plus, I did some testing. Now I don't know for sure that my machines are both 100% factory set - I purchased both used from the same individual - but I do know that they both see deep targets.

This was done on a dry sand beach in Panama City Beach Fl on a day with no previous rain for about 6 days. I started hunting with my Sovereign ELITE in AM mode with the tone switch at Variable, Disc and Notch both at NONE and Sensitivity max'ed out but not at AUTO. With Threshold just barely audible, I hunted along until I hit a target and then switched to DISC mode from AM. SOMETIMES the target would "disappear" - NOT null out - or just couldn't be seen due to depth when in DISC mode. I recovered every target that this happened with and 95% were coins beyond 12 inches deep.

NOW AS A TEST... After hitting a target in AM that disappeared when switching to DISC, and before digging, I grabbed my PI machine and swept the area above the target. Each time the PI saw the target and the majority of the time it saw it easily. Maybe 10 % of the targets and only the very deepest (around 14 inches) caused the PI to "struggle" to convince me to dig them...

I have about 130 hours using each machine so I have similar experience on each. I firmly believe that my PI machine seems to get better depth in the water than it does on dry sand.


Robby thats a great way to find those deeper targets like you explained in your 2nd paragraph. When you get those fainter (you know its deep) hits in all metal, you can check in disc, no nulling or no response at all indicates a really deep one....Now a null doesnt necessarily mean its iron, it could null on the deepest of hits and still be a good target. I havent used an Elite in awhile, but isnt the variable/single tone toggle inactive while your in all metal? I dont think that toggle does anything in all metal pinpoint.
I have owned/hunted a few PI machines, those were the HH PI and the Whites Dual field and I thought the HH PI was the deeper of the two and I found the dual field no deeper than a Sov when the Sov is hunted in pinpoint all metal and using a similiar sized coil. I always wanted to try one of eric fosters units but never did.
 
Critterhunter said:
Good testing, but try PP mode on your Elite. Full sensitivity. Full volume. From what I've heard it's very different and deeper than the two other all metal modes, especially in the worst of grounds.

The Elites pinpoint mode is its all metal mode. There is only one all metal mode on the Elite.
 
Neil said:
Critterhunter said:
Good testing, but try PP mode on your Elite. Full sensitivity. Full volume. From what I've heard it's very different and deeper than the two other all metal modes, especially in the worst of grounds.

The Elites pinpoint mode is its all metal mode. There is only one all metal mode on the Elite.

Ya beat me to it... I was going to say that. The tone switch does make a difference in AM as I recall, I'll check it tomorrow when I can get out to the beach....
 
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