I went to Florida last month and found out that you cant enter the water with a metal detector. You could be put in jail. Their are no sign that I saw. this was in the Merritt Island area. I was also told it was like that in other places. Something to claims on Shipwrecks. do any one want to comment about this.
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I went to Florida,no entering water with metal detector!
- Thread starter bob50
- Start date
no claims that im aware of north of cocoa beach!!! merritt island ocean beaches would be cape Canaveral national seashore, afb, nasa..........no detecting!!!!! a lot of inland merritt island is part of the cape Canaveral national seashore..........no detecting.
where exactly were you? who told you?
chuck.
where exactly were you? who told you?
chuck.
Bob50, great question. And yes, I have no doubt someone you talked to can probably come up with such fears and supposed "laws". Same for Junklords assertion when he says: "if you get caught on Federal land with a detector it comes with a $100,000 fine." This too (that all federal land is a no-no) is commonly circulated fears.
Oddly, as you see in JW and seeker's posts, they know of no such laws or limitations. For example, JW says he's been hunting (gasp) in the water for "32 yrs", there, and no one's ever told him he can't. And as an example to contrast junklords assertion: I have hunted various forms of federal land (closed military bases, forests, etc...) and so too have had no one tell me I can't (and ... gasp ... did not face a "$100,000 fine ... say it isn't so !). In fact, like JW, I'm largely ignored (assuming I'm not snooping around obvious historic landmarks, or being a nuisance in some other way). Yes, even being approached by authories in such places, the mere act of what I'm doing is not at/in question.
So then, this begs the question, why did you hear such a thing, from whomever it was that you asked? And here's the answer to why such rumors and fears get circulated around the md'ing forums/community: Because people in the past 30-ish years, have gone "seeking clarification" and asking "can I metal detect at/in such & such places". No mind you, perhaps at the time in the late 1970s/early '80s, the thought of NOT being able to detect a beach, or in a forest, would have been laughable. In those days, we'd have thought "gee, why NOT?". I mean, duh, where ELSE does someone detect? Oh sure we had the presence of mind to stay off of obvious historic monuments, but otherwise, no, public parks and beaches ... were .... doh ... *public* parks and beaches. But then lo & behold, rumors of laws saying "no" began to be circulated. Parks and/or beaches (or entire entities like "all federal", for instance) were said to be "off-limits". This accelerated in the age of the internet, when lightening fast info exchanges amongst hobbyists took off, of course. Meanwhile, us old-timers, are still scratching our heads thinking/saying "since when?".
And when you trace it back to its origins, RARELY is there ever some new law or rule which actually *specifically* ever says "no metal detecting". Instead, it relies on ancillary verbage. You know, things like cultural heritage, or verbage about "collecting and harvesting" or verbage about "defacement" and so forth. All of which pre-date detecting. But that .... sure .... if you asked enough archies: "does this apply to md'ing?" that ... SURE, you'll eventually find someone to tell you "yes it applies and no you can't". Heck, they might even be able to cite for you dire sounding penalties and the like.
So what precipitated these laws then, that are said to apply to, and prohibit metal detecting? PEOPLE ASKING. So for example: JW knows of no such law, and routinely detects the very zones you ask about (hence he thinks you're being hood-winked from whomever you talked to). BUT ON THE CONTRARY: It merely means that JW didn't go ask enough desk-bound bureaucrat's "can I?". Because if he had, I gaurantee you, HE TOO could have found himself a "no". So his freedom to do it for the last 32 yrs. (no one cares, and he's never bothered), simply means he didn't ask enough questions, such that he too could preclude himself from good hunting grounds (shame on you JW).
For example, right now, if I wanted to, I could go detect our city's public park sandbox for loose change, till I"m blue in the face. No one would care. So you might deduce from that fact, that ... therefore .... "it's ok to detect my city's sandboxes", right? But on the contrary, I bet that if I went to city hall here, and asked permission, I could eventually find a "no". Even if the clerk at the front counter said "help yourself", I could simply go higher than their authority (afterall, they may not have the correct answer, as a lowly front desk clerk). If I went higher and higher up the chain of bureaucracy, to city lawyers, mayors, council meetings, etc... I would indeed eventually find myself a "no". It's easy. Here's how: Just be sure to use key buzz words like "dig", and "antiquities", and "take", and "holes" and "indian bones", etc... And then be sure to put a contract in front of them (permission "authorizing" you), and sure enough, you can eventually find yourself a no, and preclude yourself from ANY area. And then ... gee ... once I get that "no", I can dutifully (like the persons you talked to there in FL) pass this info on to my fellow hunters "lest they get arrested".
Do you see how this snow-balling sell-fulfilling vicious loop works ?? Perhaps the persons you got your FL information from didn't directly, themselves, go "asking". Instead they may be passing on to you info that they read somewhere. But I gaurantee you, that if you trace it back far enough, it almost always invariably starts with someone, somewhere, way-back-when, asking "can I?".
And what's sad is, that in some of those cases, powers-that-be actually went and made specific laws, that now DO actually say "no metal detecting". In order to clarify and "address this pressing issue" (bless the hearts of those who went in asking "can i?" in that case, right?).
So I won't address whether there is or isn't an actual *specific* law about "in the water" there in FL, for your specific question (maybe there is, maybe there isn't). But just wanting to alert you on the psychology behind those things. So rather than befuddling yourself which "where the water begins" and "what constitutes a culturally significant objects 50 yrs, blah blah), instead, notice where people ACTUALLY detect, and does anyone ACTUALLY care.
For example: if you were to come to CA and ask the same question about state-of-CA run/owned beaches, you might find someone to read the State park's dept rules, and come away concluding that you can't detect the beaches here. I have no doubt that there's some archie in Sacramento, that interprets them in that way (and would even cite dire consequences and fines, etc....). I mean, afterall, there's rules about cultural heritage here, and (gasp), what if you found a 51 yr. old penny on a state beach here? HOWEVER, if you came here, you would see no shortage of md'rs on state beaches. It's just always gone on, since the earliest days of detecting (1960s) and no one's ever cared. The state parks rules have always been assumed mean the INLAND parks, not the beaches. However, .... truth-be-told, the same state parks dept. that administers them, ALSO administers our state beaches as well (it's all one & the same park's dept.) So there's no logical reason why the same rules of cultural heritage and such wouldn't apply. Yet in actual practice, you can detect state of CA beaches here till you're blue in the face, and no one will ever care. I guess no one here ever went and asked enough questions, seeking enough clarifications. And I for one hope it stays that way.
Oddly, as you see in JW and seeker's posts, they know of no such laws or limitations. For example, JW says he's been hunting (gasp) in the water for "32 yrs", there, and no one's ever told him he can't. And as an example to contrast junklords assertion: I have hunted various forms of federal land (closed military bases, forests, etc...) and so too have had no one tell me I can't (and ... gasp ... did not face a "$100,000 fine ... say it isn't so !). In fact, like JW, I'm largely ignored (assuming I'm not snooping around obvious historic landmarks, or being a nuisance in some other way). Yes, even being approached by authories in such places, the mere act of what I'm doing is not at/in question.
So then, this begs the question, why did you hear such a thing, from whomever it was that you asked? And here's the answer to why such rumors and fears get circulated around the md'ing forums/community: Because people in the past 30-ish years, have gone "seeking clarification" and asking "can I metal detect at/in such & such places". No mind you, perhaps at the time in the late 1970s/early '80s, the thought of NOT being able to detect a beach, or in a forest, would have been laughable. In those days, we'd have thought "gee, why NOT?". I mean, duh, where ELSE does someone detect? Oh sure we had the presence of mind to stay off of obvious historic monuments, but otherwise, no, public parks and beaches ... were .... doh ... *public* parks and beaches. But then lo & behold, rumors of laws saying "no" began to be circulated. Parks and/or beaches (or entire entities like "all federal", for instance) were said to be "off-limits". This accelerated in the age of the internet, when lightening fast info exchanges amongst hobbyists took off, of course. Meanwhile, us old-timers, are still scratching our heads thinking/saying "since when?".
And when you trace it back to its origins, RARELY is there ever some new law or rule which actually *specifically* ever says "no metal detecting". Instead, it relies on ancillary verbage. You know, things like cultural heritage, or verbage about "collecting and harvesting" or verbage about "defacement" and so forth. All of which pre-date detecting. But that .... sure .... if you asked enough archies: "does this apply to md'ing?" that ... SURE, you'll eventually find someone to tell you "yes it applies and no you can't". Heck, they might even be able to cite for you dire sounding penalties and the like.
So what precipitated these laws then, that are said to apply to, and prohibit metal detecting? PEOPLE ASKING. So for example: JW knows of no such law, and routinely detects the very zones you ask about (hence he thinks you're being hood-winked from whomever you talked to). BUT ON THE CONTRARY: It merely means that JW didn't go ask enough desk-bound bureaucrat's "can I?". Because if he had, I gaurantee you, HE TOO could have found himself a "no". So his freedom to do it for the last 32 yrs. (no one cares, and he's never bothered), simply means he didn't ask enough questions, such that he too could preclude himself from good hunting grounds (shame on you JW).
For example, right now, if I wanted to, I could go detect our city's public park sandbox for loose change, till I"m blue in the face. No one would care. So you might deduce from that fact, that ... therefore .... "it's ok to detect my city's sandboxes", right? But on the contrary, I bet that if I went to city hall here, and asked permission, I could eventually find a "no". Even if the clerk at the front counter said "help yourself", I could simply go higher than their authority (afterall, they may not have the correct answer, as a lowly front desk clerk). If I went higher and higher up the chain of bureaucracy, to city lawyers, mayors, council meetings, etc... I would indeed eventually find myself a "no". It's easy. Here's how: Just be sure to use key buzz words like "dig", and "antiquities", and "take", and "holes" and "indian bones", etc... And then be sure to put a contract in front of them (permission "authorizing" you), and sure enough, you can eventually find yourself a no, and preclude yourself from ANY area. And then ... gee ... once I get that "no", I can dutifully (like the persons you talked to there in FL) pass this info on to my fellow hunters "lest they get arrested".
Do you see how this snow-balling sell-fulfilling vicious loop works ?? Perhaps the persons you got your FL information from didn't directly, themselves, go "asking". Instead they may be passing on to you info that they read somewhere. But I gaurantee you, that if you trace it back far enough, it almost always invariably starts with someone, somewhere, way-back-when, asking "can I?".
And what's sad is, that in some of those cases, powers-that-be actually went and made specific laws, that now DO actually say "no metal detecting". In order to clarify and "address this pressing issue" (bless the hearts of those who went in asking "can i?" in that case, right?).
So I won't address whether there is or isn't an actual *specific* law about "in the water" there in FL, for your specific question (maybe there is, maybe there isn't). But just wanting to alert you on the psychology behind those things. So rather than befuddling yourself which "where the water begins" and "what constitutes a culturally significant objects 50 yrs, blah blah), instead, notice where people ACTUALLY detect, and does anyone ACTUALLY care.
For example: if you were to come to CA and ask the same question about state-of-CA run/owned beaches, you might find someone to read the State park's dept rules, and come away concluding that you can't detect the beaches here. I have no doubt that there's some archie in Sacramento, that interprets them in that way (and would even cite dire consequences and fines, etc....). I mean, afterall, there's rules about cultural heritage here, and (gasp), what if you found a 51 yr. old penny on a state beach here? HOWEVER, if you came here, you would see no shortage of md'rs on state beaches. It's just always gone on, since the earliest days of detecting (1960s) and no one's ever cared. The state parks rules have always been assumed mean the INLAND parks, not the beaches. However, .... truth-be-told, the same state parks dept. that administers them, ALSO administers our state beaches as well (it's all one & the same park's dept.) So there's no logical reason why the same rules of cultural heritage and such wouldn't apply. Yet in actual practice, you can detect state of CA beaches here till you're blue in the face, and no one will ever care. I guess no one here ever went and asked enough questions, seeking enough clarifications. And I for one hope it stays that way.
Just curious: If you were to come to CA on vacation, and were wondering if you could detect state-of-CA beaches, would you: a) look up the law for yourself, or b) ask locals there who detect, if the state-of-CA beaches are ok?
Assuming you chose option A, and seeing as how you would find "cultural heritage" verbage, would you then wonder if this could apply to detecting? (afterall, you *might* find an old coin). How would you resolve this? Ask I suppose "does this apply?". Or better yet, would you simply go with option B, and see what local md'rs there are actually *doing* (ie.: if they routinely detect). And if you found out that they do, and that no one's ever had a problem, would you then assume .... that therefore it's ok?
Which method decides? Actual practice, or actual law? And if ambiguous, how do you interpret? If you chose the high road of asking around to enough bureaucrats, and you found yourself a no, what would you think when/if you showed up at your beach hotel, only to see others md'ing without a care in the world? Do you figure they're all law-less miscreants?
Mind you a buddy of mine did in fact run into a state-of-CA archie on one of our state beaches, who READ HIM THE RIOT ACT! It was a total fluke that the archie was even at the beach that day (long story). The two of them quarrled for a bit, before the archie stormed off, apparently to go contact cops or rangers. My friend left before anything became of it. He reported that to others of us beach hunters here. We naturally assumed this purist archie was mistaken (afterall, everyone *knows* you can detect beaches here, haha). So we figured we'd "set this guy straight" by showing him the facts. However, the more we looked into it, the more we realized we'd better leave good enough alone. No doubt the archie went back to Sacramento, and no doubt no one but a lone individual like that, would ever care or notice such a thing.
Moral of the story ??
Assuming you chose option A, and seeing as how you would find "cultural heritage" verbage, would you then wonder if this could apply to detecting? (afterall, you *might* find an old coin). How would you resolve this? Ask I suppose "does this apply?". Or better yet, would you simply go with option B, and see what local md'rs there are actually *doing* (ie.: if they routinely detect). And if you found out that they do, and that no one's ever had a problem, would you then assume .... that therefore it's ok?
Which method decides? Actual practice, or actual law? And if ambiguous, how do you interpret? If you chose the high road of asking around to enough bureaucrats, and you found yourself a no, what would you think when/if you showed up at your beach hotel, only to see others md'ing without a care in the world? Do you figure they're all law-less miscreants?
Mind you a buddy of mine did in fact run into a state-of-CA archie on one of our state beaches, who READ HIM THE RIOT ACT! It was a total fluke that the archie was even at the beach that day (long story). The two of them quarrled for a bit, before the archie stormed off, apparently to go contact cops or rangers. My friend left before anything became of it. He reported that to others of us beach hunters here. We naturally assumed this purist archie was mistaken (afterall, everyone *knows* you can detect beaches here, haha). So we figured we'd "set this guy straight" by showing him the facts. However, the more we looked into it, the more we realized we'd better leave good enough alone. No doubt the archie went back to Sacramento, and no doubt no one but a lone individual like that, would ever care or notice such a thing.
Moral of the story ??
This is interesting stuff! This past summer I went to a local lake for the 20th time to detect adjacent to a state park boat ramp. After about an hour, a young Park Ranger came over to me and said, "Sir, finish up what you're doing but don't do any more. You can't metal detect on state park land because of antiquities, etc., etc. While we were talking, a State park policeman rolled his cruiser over with the window down and told me the same thing. I said no problem, I'll be on my way. (the advice of Tom from CA was on my mind. Just leave and come back another day when these people are not around.)
As I was packing up to leave, a fisherman approached me and said, "I saw those two talking over there and eyeballing you and figured it was only a matter of time before they kicked you out of here. They must have all the drug dealers and drunk drivers under control now and are starting on us fishermen and metal detectorists." I had to chuckle!
Getting kicked out bothered me but I've never been the type to have the right answer on the tip of my tongue. A couple of days later I thought of something. I have some real estate experience and recall learning about riparian rights. Basically riparian rights define who owns the land under the water. In NY anyways, if the waterway is navigable, then the land owners' property lines adjacent to the water end at the high water line and the land under the water belongs to the local municipality. I figured that the land I was detecting on belonged to the town I was in and not the state since it was below the high water line and not near the boat ramp. I went to the NY State park office where I asked if they could show me a map of the state park area next to the boat launch. Be happy to they said. Lo and behold, their boundary included a few acres of land for parking, the boat launch and a pier next to the boat launch but not the land under the water I was detecting in. Thank you, I said and left. I went to the town and asked them if they had any codes against metal detecting. ( Note, I did not ask them if I could metal detect next to the state boat launch!) The answer was NO. we do not. Thank you I said and left.
Now, I'm convinced that the Ranger and the State park Policeman who asked me to leave meant well trying to protect the antiquities under their land from us scavengers but they were slightly out of their jurisdiction. I've been back to that place 3 more times but haven't been approached by anyone because they haven't been there. I told my wife that if I wasn't back by a certain time it's because I've been arrested. I actually don't think I will be because I believe that when presented with the facts, these guys will disappear to make phone calls to the boss and be too embarrassed to come back to tell me that I'm right and they're wrong.
Wish me luck and HH!
As I was packing up to leave, a fisherman approached me and said, "I saw those two talking over there and eyeballing you and figured it was only a matter of time before they kicked you out of here. They must have all the drug dealers and drunk drivers under control now and are starting on us fishermen and metal detectorists." I had to chuckle!
Getting kicked out bothered me but I've never been the type to have the right answer on the tip of my tongue. A couple of days later I thought of something. I have some real estate experience and recall learning about riparian rights. Basically riparian rights define who owns the land under the water. In NY anyways, if the waterway is navigable, then the land owners' property lines adjacent to the water end at the high water line and the land under the water belongs to the local municipality. I figured that the land I was detecting on belonged to the town I was in and not the state since it was below the high water line and not near the boat ramp. I went to the NY State park office where I asked if they could show me a map of the state park area next to the boat launch. Be happy to they said. Lo and behold, their boundary included a few acres of land for parking, the boat launch and a pier next to the boat launch but not the land under the water I was detecting in. Thank you, I said and left. I went to the town and asked them if they had any codes against metal detecting. ( Note, I did not ask them if I could metal detect next to the state boat launch!) The answer was NO. we do not. Thank you I said and left.
Now, I'm convinced that the Ranger and the State park Policeman who asked me to leave meant well trying to protect the antiquities under their land from us scavengers but they were slightly out of their jurisdiction. I've been back to that place 3 more times but haven't been approached by anyone because they haven't been there. I told my wife that if I wasn't back by a certain time it's because I've been arrested. I actually don't think I will be because I believe that when presented with the facts, these guys will disappear to make phone calls to the boss and be too embarrassed to come back to tell me that I'm right and they're wrong.
Wish me luck and HH!
Yes, he "checked to see if it was legal". But notice that at no time, before (when he'd hunted there "20 times with no problems), or afterwards (when some bozo booted him), did he ever go ask someone in a higher position of authority "can I metal detect?". Instead, he took it upon himself to confirm his own suspicions, that he'd never been on state land. And once the color coded maps showed that to be true, then instead of going to whatever the next entities land was (city or whatever), he simply looked to make sure there was nothing there that *specifically* said "no metal detecting". So again, he didn't ask, he looked it up for himself.
All too often though, this is not the reaction that most md'rs have. They simply go asking some bored ranger or desk-bound-bureacrat "can I metal detect?". And perhaps they get a 'no' from someone who thinks they'll bother sandcrabs or whatever. Or a 'no' from someone who errantly believes it's within their property boundries (afterall, you asked them, so that merely presumes/infers it's with their "princely" power and boundries to "grant" such a thing). So the skittish md'r tucks his tail between his legs, leaves, and can't metal detect
He misses out on those "20 times" that the OP here had with not-a-care in the world.
Or if booted on the 21st time (as with the OP here), the skittish md'r doesn't do his own homework, as was done here. Instead he just assumes this ranger or cop or whatever is right (afterall, NO ONE likes to be booted). And in either of the above 2 scenarios, they just assume this must be factual, and the dutifully pass the word to their friends, and on forums, etc...
Or another scenario: let's say that the OP here had known all those minutia facts ahead of time. And let's say that rather than accept the booting, he'd gone to debate those guys on semantics of boundries, etc... That too might have gone bad. Because no cop wants to be told how to do his job (understandibly so). And if you start to quibble over boundries, then he can merely say "well you can't do it on city land either." The problem then becomes, that if the result of his and yours quarrel leads to some sort of arbitration (going before city magistrates to un-ravel a ticket), you can guess what will happen, is such a silly question has to pass through all sorts of bureaucrat's hands, to determine "was this guy ok to detect?". All too often, this just becomes an avenue for rules or clarifications or policies to get INTO PLACE.
So the best thing to do, is as the OP did. Give lip service (quick and passing explanation of how you weren't on their property, or how there's not a specific prohibition, or how you weren't leaving holes), but then .... other than that, lip service and leave. Then once you know your facts are accurate (as with the OP here), then just go back at a more oportune time, when mister or miss lookie-lou isn't around.
If I had to believe that every time someone griped that it meant that "such & such place is off-limits", I'd probably have just lost about half my hunting spots!
I wish it wasn't this way. I wish the hobby didn't carry certain connotations. But it is this way. No one's going to "roll out the red carpets" for us. If this bothers someone that not every loves their chosen hobby, and that they don't see signs saying "detecting welcome here", then I fear they've chosen the wrong hobby.
All too often though, this is not the reaction that most md'rs have. They simply go asking some bored ranger or desk-bound-bureacrat "can I metal detect?". And perhaps they get a 'no' from someone who thinks they'll bother sandcrabs or whatever. Or a 'no' from someone who errantly believes it's within their property boundries (afterall, you asked them, so that merely presumes/infers it's with their "princely" power and boundries to "grant" such a thing). So the skittish md'r tucks his tail between his legs, leaves, and can't metal detect
He misses out on those "20 times" that the OP here had with not-a-care in the world.Or if booted on the 21st time (as with the OP here), the skittish md'r doesn't do his own homework, as was done here. Instead he just assumes this ranger or cop or whatever is right (afterall, NO ONE likes to be booted). And in either of the above 2 scenarios, they just assume this must be factual, and the dutifully pass the word to their friends, and on forums, etc...
Or another scenario: let's say that the OP here had known all those minutia facts ahead of time. And let's say that rather than accept the booting, he'd gone to debate those guys on semantics of boundries, etc... That too might have gone bad. Because no cop wants to be told how to do his job (understandibly so). And if you start to quibble over boundries, then he can merely say "well you can't do it on city land either." The problem then becomes, that if the result of his and yours quarrel leads to some sort of arbitration (going before city magistrates to un-ravel a ticket), you can guess what will happen, is such a silly question has to pass through all sorts of bureaucrat's hands, to determine "was this guy ok to detect?". All too often, this just becomes an avenue for rules or clarifications or policies to get INTO PLACE.
So the best thing to do, is as the OP did. Give lip service (quick and passing explanation of how you weren't on their property, or how there's not a specific prohibition, or how you weren't leaving holes), but then .... other than that, lip service and leave. Then once you know your facts are accurate (as with the OP here), then just go back at a more oportune time, when mister or miss lookie-lou isn't around.
If I had to believe that every time someone griped that it meant that "such & such place is off-limits", I'd probably have just lost about half my hunting spots!
I wish it wasn't this way. I wish the hobby didn't carry certain connotations. But it is this way. No one's going to "roll out the red carpets" for us. If this bothers someone that not every loves their chosen hobby, and that they don't see signs saying "detecting welcome here", then I fear they've chosen the wrong hobby.
Nes (south Coast-CA)
New member
The only place I haven't been able to metal detect on any California beaches in when you get on Navy property. The Navy Seal facility in Coronado, CA has signs up on the beach about trespassing in the Navy area. A detecting friend and I were getting pretty close to the sign about 5 AM in the morning and shazam, there was a navy policemen right there reminding us of the restricted territory.Its understandable, because that is where the Navy Seal training goes on that you see in Documentaries Also about a half mile south is a signal station that causes some havoc with cheap metal detectors. If you are on the Coronado beach in the early morning, Navy Seals run by on the beach in the dark heading towards North Island Naval Base. That is also a restricted beach.when you get to that sign.
Water Hunter
Member
I've been hunting in Fl. for over 30 years. From South beach to Jupiter Fl. that is. In the water with out any problems of course covering all holes on the beach. never did anyone ever bother me. Now once you past Jupiter all the way to Vero beach these areas are where Spanish shipwrecks are and you CANNOT DETECT IN THE WATER. without a permit from the state of Fl. But any thing you find in the wet sand or dry sand on the beaches is yours, also you cannot detect up in the dunes, because of exotic plants etc. So as far as detecting in the water you could in most places. HH .