I was considering a Garrett but I talked to their tech Brad!

[dfwdetector]

I started detecting in 1974 with a Dtex, then Bounty Hunter Red Baron then got out of it for a while. 3 years ago I purchased a white's Spectrum Eagle used. I have a highly technical background in electronics also. I said all that to give you an idea where I am coming from with my concerns about Garrett detectors. I really like the appearance and their target imaging available on the 1500 and 2500 and was considering purchasing one. However when I read the info on Garrett's site and the user manuals for the 1500 and 2500 I had some really big concerns about Ground Balancing in these units. So like the web site for Garrett promoted I called them. The phone was answered politely and I was promptly transferred I guess to a tech( I am not sure since after talking with him he seemed to be dancing around my concerns and not giving me the answers I needed, his name was Brad)

For those of you not as technical versed let me give a quick explanation. Using single frequency VLF detectors result in transmitting a sine wave frequency in the ground and the way the coils operate a reverse sine wave frequency is received at some known delay compensated for by the internal circuitry. So under ideal conditions you get an EXACT opposite wave received back that you transmit then these two are fed into a comparision circuity and if both waves are EXACTLY opposite they cancel and thus NO TARGET is there. Now you add ground mineralization and what does is cause the receive wave to be shifted in phase to the left or right so it is NOT EXACTLY opposite when the comarison is made. This why GROUND BALANCE is SO IMPORTANT. If it is not right then you will get FALSE targets.

After the White's detector is turned on and a program selected you hold the detector paralell to the ground at waist level and press the menu key which then records the air balance reading. Then you lower the coil to the ground absent of metal about the height you use it at and press the menu key again. This gives the detector the ground return waveform. Then it adjusts the ground waveform with no target to the Air waveform making them EXACTLY OPPOSITE resulting in a TRUE GROUND BALANCE CONDITON.

When a target or metal is in the ground the metal depending on its conductivity causes a phase shift of the received signal to the detector. VDI or target numbers are derived from these phase shift values because EVERY metal item will cause a different amount of phase shift in the received signal. Thus you can tell the difference between a new nickel and an old nickel since they will create a different amount of phase shift hence a different target # is calculated for each. Any way that is the basic theory.

Now Garretts user manuals say turn on the detector select a program and go at it. What about Ground Balancing???? Well after dancing with Brad on the phone for about 30 minutes he kept saying it is automatic. I said well yes white's is automatic also but you still have to get your intial values somewhere the whites gets theirs as described above but Brad kept insisting it was automatic but could not offer an explanation. Then he went on to explain how you could manually ground balance the 2500 well yes white's does that too but thats not automatic its manual. After another 10 minutes I told Brad so what your telling me is Garrett's did reasearch on ground balancing and picked a COMPROMISED value that works for MOST ground conditons and he said yes! I said ok kinda like forcing your gas pedal to a postion that gives a 45 mph speed of your vehicle on level ground and calling it CRUISE CONTROL!

Hmmmmmm... I like the idea of Garrett's 2 receive coils for target imaging but not having ever used a Garrett detector I sure would'nt spend that kind of money with my concerns about Ground Balancing! Whites Detectors even at the $600-700 dollar range offer both auto and manual ground balancing but only Garretts top of the line 2500 offers manual ability to adjust the Ground Balance.

I was sadly disappointed with Garrett's FACTORY tech response and explanation and lack of knowledge, I called the factory since they build and repair them and I thought had the technical knowledge of the circuitry and how it worked or was designed but apparently this was either not the case or they were unwilling to provide any information to ease my concerns about their product. So I will now be looking back to White's again they just came out with the M6 detector this month.

If anyone else can provide some insight or information on this I would really appreciate it. I am no ANTI-GARRETT like I said I like the appearance and the target imaging and some of their features but I had concerns about ground balancing and they did nothing to allevaite them.

dfwdetector

 

[BOB in TX]

Sure glad my detector didn't read this post if it had I probly wouldn't have found thos 11 rings last week.

 

[willy]

Check out the MXT. It doesn't require all this bobbing & weaving in the air. What do ya think? Maybe Whites is lying and it doesn't ground track at all (despite the toggle switch). How about the Eureka Gold (Minelab), the GMT, the LST? Treasure Baron? Maybe they're all lying and you have grounds for a false advertising lawsuit. You should call your lawyer ASAP and git 'em. All kidding aside, the tech probably meant that the detector assigns an initial value which is probably close to ferrite (which many preset detectors are balaned to) and then tracks from there. This ensures good turn on & go operation until the tracking can catch up with the mineralization. Just because one model of detector does something a certain way doesn't mean everyone else has to march to their tune. ...Willy. BTW. When I turn on the GTI 2000 (in my soil and AM mode), I can actually "hear" the tracking adjustments being made.

 

[Uncle Willy]

You need to call and talk to Mary Penson. I'm not sure what kind of miracle you're looking for. The detectors with automatic ground balance and ground tracking do just that. On the 2500 you have all metal fast track or manual GB with 256 degrees of adjustment.

Using Fast Track is simple - just press and hold the All Metal/Fast Track button and bounce the coil from two to eight inches above the ground until you have just a slight response from the ground then release the button and start hunting. Only takes a few seconds and the machine will make all necessary adjustments automatically after that. How much simpler can it get. The 2500 has an awesome all metal mode.

Bill

 

[albo_n_mo]

Here's a little input on the ground balance on the Garrett 2500. I suppose Brad should have gone to page 52 in the user's manual to explain what he meant by "automatic." The 2500 will automatically ground balance itself to most ground conditions. That is why it is factory pre-set. If the mineralization becomes heavier, then you can manually balance it. Matter of fact it can be balanced precisely because it has 256 steps in the manual ground balance mode. You will need to press the menu button, then scroll to "fast track" and turn fast track off when manually balancing it. When fast track is on, then it automatically balances the ground for you. ( I bet Whites doesn't do that.) Pardon me if I appear just a little sensitive, but I'd take the 2500 over any detector on the market. I've had mine for three or four months and I've found several rings, a handful of silver dimes, an 1899 silver dollar, and a bucketful of clad coins. So don't jump ship too soon and look the other way. Garrett is the best!!!

 

[dfwdetector]

What I am trying to understand is when you first turn on the detector whether it be the 1500 or 2500 how does it automatically balance itself without user assistance. For example what if when i turned it on I had the coil over metal.

How does it arrive at the initial ground balance if it has no air reference to go by or is it just set at a FIXED starting point then from their adjusts as you search. If that is the case, then I wonder how long it would take it to adjust to the ground condtion.

I have not ruled out getting a Garrett but I am trying to avoid investing in a detector which I may not be satisfied with. I have had the whites for 5 years and it is an original machine built in 1991. The XLT E series whites sells today is exactly the same as the one I have except for the decals and a minor revision 1.1 of firmware and the 8 AA batteries instead of the 4 C Cells mine used to use.

I was looking for a more technical explanation from the factory and was disappointed when I did'nt get it. I may have to actually use one before I decide if I would like it or not.

Thanks for your help.

 

[dfwdetector]

Fast Track? Is this the manual Balance mode? I looked over the startup sections of the 1500 and 2500 manuals and did'nt see any mention of doing ground balance before you started to hunt and this is what brought about my questions to start with. This Fast Track which you speak of sounds very similiar to what I do when I turn on my White's unit. Did I miss it in the startup section of the manual or was it only in the advanced user areas of the manual and does the 1500 as well as the 2500 have the fast track.

Thanks for the Info I think I am starting to see what I was looking for but was never pointed out or explained by Brad at Garrett.

 

[dfwdetector]

This explanation sounds more reasonable, I think someone needs to educate this guy Brad at Garrett. It would make sense what you say as far as starting at the preset point then adjusting quickly to the current ground conditions. I was hoping the 1500 operates that way also as I really don't need the manual ground balance.

As for the MXT it is too noisy for my liking due to its 14khz transmit frequency and adjustments. The M6 I hear has corrected that problem thus probably why the M6 came out in such a short time after the MXT hit the market.

How do you like the target imaging on the Garrett. I understand they use 2 receive coils in order to do that. I really like the concept. Does it help alot or is it just a hype feature for marketing?

Thanks!

 

[willy]

The target imaging works but... as with any coil, you have to isolate the target to get a proper reading. One thing I like about the GTI 2000/2500 is the continuous imaging grid. It will give you both size & depth while hunting, without having to go into pinpoint mode, in both all-metal & disc. It will also ID in all-metal mode, though not to full depth. The stock coil is pretty sensitive, surprisingly so given the frequency & size of coil. Having had the GTI 1500 & now the 2000, I can say that the 2000 is much more versatile than the 1500. When in AM mode, things can get a bit noisy with the stock coil (in my ground) but sticking on the 5x10" changes things dramatically. It seems to speed up target response and gives superb target separation. The 1500 will balance to most soils, but some are too extreme for the stock coil. I tend to think that the dual receive coils might be the culprit insofar as the circuits might get overloaded by the ground signal. This is easily cured by raising the coil and doesn't really kill the depth. I did side to side tests between a GTI 1500 w. stock & 12.5" non-imaging coils, Sov XS2pro/ Excalibur w. 7.5"/10"/WOT, Cobra II w. 5"/8", and the 1500 matched or beat the ML detectors and was waayyyy hotter on small & low conductive targets. The 12" non-imaging coil was a waste of time, save that it would provide better coverage. Surprisingly, my modded Cobra II gave the 1500 a run for it's money in all areas except sizing & depth readout. The notch function and how it's implemented is really effective insofar as there is a continuous display so you always know what's being disc'ed and high conductors (or anything really) can be knocked out for jewellry hunting. That's one thing I hated about the MXT; always having to refer to the meter when hunting rings. What it comes down to is that it works as advertised, just check out how many sre for sale on the classifieds & how often they pop up. Compare that to Tesoro, Whites, Fisher or (dare I say it) Minelab. Garrett sells a $hitload of detectors and very few (comparatively) show up on the classifieds. The thing is, they're super easy and intuitive to use, with no mysterious adjustments. Also, the most commonly adjusted or important functions are constantly being displayed without having to key in stuff or row through menus. That and it retains the last setting in memory along with a custom setting. This is one of my major gripes with the new Teknetics T2; when you turn it off, everything is lost and the detectors revert back to presets. What an asinine timewaster. Just that one idiotic feature turns the T2 from a solid contender, in my books, into a dust collector. I mentioned this on another forum & was poo-poohed, but you watch.. once the initial glow wears off, other people will be reselling with that feature being a big reason (stated or otherwise.. probably the latter). A big part of detecting has to do with enjoyment. Face it, most people spend a lot on a detector and spend a lot of time grubbing in the dirt, often not making enough to even pay for the batteries! Why make things any harder? That's a big reason why people hang onto their Garretts; they make the job much easier. Before the howls start that I'm a Garrett shill, I'll mention that I have 2 other brands & have had many more. I just have to give credit where credit is due. This also doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's warts, just that I'm not on that particular topic at present. ...Willy.

 

[willy]

The GTI 2000/2500 have manual GB & Fast Track + autotrack with (on the 2000) variable tracking sped. The GTI 1500 is full time G. tracking; kinda like the Sov. in AM, or the LST in AM.. except it tracks in disc. ..Willy.

 

[Uncle Willy]

Like I stated - contact Mary Penson. The machines with fixed GB
are preset at the factory to a hunk of ferrite - sort of a universal setting.

The machines with ground tracking employ a Digital Signal Processor that tracks the ground and adjusts to mineralization as you scan and the Scan Track feature automatically adjusts the detector to the operator's swing speed for optimum performance.

Best thing to do is stop by a dealer and try one out. All of the theories in the world are useless up against practical application and reality. Theories are only theories until proven otherwise.

And if you turned your unit on while hovering over metal it would most likely signal such. "METAL" is the key word in metal detector.

Bill

 

[Uncle Willy]

Turn to page 50 in the manual.

Bill

 

[albo_n_mo]

I mistakenly typed "fast track" when it should have been "auto track." ( to turn off when you are manually ground balancing.) Uncle Willy has already explained what "fast track" is. Sorry if I confused you. Heck, this thing is so high tech that I get confused sometimes myself when I'm th'ing, and have to quit and get the book out. As far as the target imaging goes, I suppose some of it could be sales hype, but I sure do like it. The coil must be directly over the target to get a true image and depth reading. But even then it is not perfect. I haven't found that perfect one yet. You'll just have to use it for several days and see how it performs for you. I feel confident that you will be pleased with it.

 

[Uncle Willy]

Once you use the imaging you will discover it's far from hype and it will spoil you for other detectors. Knowing the size of the target rather than just the conductivity rating saves digging a lot of undesireable targets. And with two receiving coils there is plenty to work with analytically.

Bill