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I was banned from the blisstool fourum
- Thread starter GunnarMN
- Start date
The Blisstool is a phenomenal detector, but it seems mostly for niche situations. I have seen the type of hunting you do and it looks perfectly suited.
However many people want a general purpose detector to use in all situations and your honest representation isn't good for Bliss sales to the ill informed.
Loved your video on the basalt rock. I tossed a couple nice big hot rocks that I had lying around and now I regret it. I'm sure to find a few more as time goes on.
Thanks for your informative posts.
Ran
However many people want a general purpose detector to use in all situations and your honest representation isn't good for Bliss sales to the ill informed.
Loved your video on the basalt rock. I tossed a couple nice big hot rocks that I had lying around and now I regret it. I'm sure to find a few more as time goes on.
Thanks for your informative posts.
Ran
one other guy on that fourum got banned as his blisstool did not get the advertized depth but like he said he had 1000 years of Iron build up in the soil so it did not perform as deep as stated or at least he had not figured out the settings as of yet but he got banned to he was not being maliciouse nor was i i want to know the truth , personally i like the bliss but i also like the Gold bug and the GT but like you say in the farm feilds it really does well for me and i know what to expect the guy got angry i was not folowing his setting to a T well thesetting did not get me the depth so i had to change them to my ground conditions and then got so me good depth the UK dirt is or may be different i was not trying to bog down his sales ,
Critterhunter
New member
You don't have to explain yourself Gunnar. Those of us who know you know that you are a stand up guy who tells it like it is. If they can't handle that then who needs that UK forum. They are only going to cost themselves sales as people read about them giving people the boot who have a few negative things to say about their Blisstools. 
I've read of at least one guy that I know of who was surprised to find out the machine he bought wouldn't knock out anything above small foil. Clearly he wasn't informed about this machine and what he was getting into. He also said he wasn't getting the depth they claimed and was maxing out at about 9" if I remember right, which he said his other machines could easily do in his soil too. He mentioned it was a chatter box as well for him.
I've read of at least one guy that I know of who was surprised to find out the machine he bought wouldn't knock out anything above small foil. Clearly he wasn't informed about this machine and what he was getting into. He also said he wasn't getting the depth they claimed and was maxing out at about 9" if I remember right, which he said his other machines could easily do in his soil too. He mentioned it was a chatter box as well for him.thats right I found if you disq out foil you loss gold so i dont go above that the disq is set up mainly for Iron , wich does not bother me i tend to dig all obove Iron but in certian situations like with the Gold bug i knew foil as anything coming in the 40,s VDI wich was nice and it is a bit fussy to set up , but they do say in the broshure it is very unstabel around EMI as the vidio i will post shows but in that can still get a dime at 9" and a quarter
bootyhoundpa
Well-known member
sometimes the truth hurts and sometimes it dont.....as a customer and user you are entitled to your opinion ......hey there are plenty of people over on the ctx-30 forum who laid down alot of money and of course some of those folks are having issues and growing pains but through it all most of those same people still like there new units despite the issues.....i for one value peoples opinions whether i agree with them or not thats how we all learn.....any manufacturer that cant take a little construtive critique must have something to hide....
I believe there are people out there trying to keep anything negative about the machine being said. I had a bliss and returned it. I watched the videos of it on the salt water beach where I do most of my hunting and thought it would help out on specific beaches where we get old deep targets. The settings recommended by bliss to stabilize the machine for the beach cause you to set the disc up all the way which takes out all foil range gold, something a beach hunter would never want to do, especially for gold chains. Also you can crank the machine up to get astounding depth on a target you knew was there but the machine would then become unhuntable, it was just too unstable once you turned to hunt with it that way. I would have to then turn down settings which caused me to lose that extreme depth. For me the balance needed with the settings to make it stable enough to hunt on our beaches took away the benefit of the extreme depth the machine is capable of. I could not for the life of me find a happy balance of the two. I posted some info about this and ended up getting a private message from one of the bliss USA people that said, and I quote "I understand you returned or will be returning the machine to XXXX?? That of course is your choice.
I hope you continue to use proper discretion when relating your "experiences" with the machine both in public and by PM. Although you did not like the machine for your purposes and there is a learning curve, the unit worked well and there was nothing wrong with the unit itself. As a matter of fact - when XXXXX set it up correctly - it performed well. I just read your recent post here on XXXXXX and responded - no need to reply to my response...". I XXXX names and sites. I am very thankful the dealer I got the machine from gave me a full refund but I think it is ridiculous for someone to pm me to use discretion when relating my experiences. If have an experience with the machine, good or bad, I should be able to post about it without being made to feel like I am doing something wrong. This is the USA not Bulgaria, freedom of speech! The machine may be awesome inland in the fields, I can see how sensitive it is when you crank it up but I am mainly a beach hunter so it is not for me. Someone from bliss USA came and met me on the beach twice, which was awesome of them to try to help me but in the end it was not for me.
I am also one of those ctx guys. I love the ctx but am having major issues with it once you get knee deep in the surf. Outside of that it really rocks on the beach and in the wet sand. I have posted about that with no issues, thats the way it should be.
I hope you continue to use proper discretion when relating your "experiences" with the machine both in public and by PM. Although you did not like the machine for your purposes and there is a learning curve, the unit worked well and there was nothing wrong with the unit itself. As a matter of fact - when XXXXX set it up correctly - it performed well. I just read your recent post here on XXXXXX and responded - no need to reply to my response...". I XXXX names and sites. I am very thankful the dealer I got the machine from gave me a full refund but I think it is ridiculous for someone to pm me to use discretion when relating my experiences. If have an experience with the machine, good or bad, I should be able to post about it without being made to feel like I am doing something wrong. This is the USA not Bulgaria, freedom of speech! The machine may be awesome inland in the fields, I can see how sensitive it is when you crank it up but I am mainly a beach hunter so it is not for me. Someone from bliss USA came and met me on the beach twice, which was awesome of them to try to help me but in the end it was not for me.
I am also one of those ctx guys. I love the ctx but am having major issues with it once you get knee deep in the surf. Outside of that it really rocks on the beach and in the wet sand. I have posted about that with no issues, thats the way it should be.
Critterhunter
New member
Don't feel "bad" you guys. I was just told publicly on another forum (not Findmall) by a certain source for this machine that he refuses to sell me a new one and that he say's now my only choice is to buy one used elsewhere. I've been asking questions and spreading re-posted field reports from Blisstool users who in fact like certain things about it but had a few negative things to say, ONLY because I want to see those issues addressed and answered for before I decide to buy one or not. I can see why he's NOT a Findmall sponsor, as he seems to have a lot to learn about how to treat potential customers who have a few questions they want addressed. Findmall sponsors have always had the patience to answwer as many questions as I ever had. I wouldn't doubt they have to meet certain customer satisfaction standards before being allowed to advertise here as that could hurt Findmall's reputation. The site he said that to me on he isn't even a sponsor on I don't think.
Can you imagine that? When's the last time in America you heard a source for a product come out publicly and say they won't sell you that product. I guess I just DARED to ask some questions or spread some posts around from actual users of their product that aren't exactly all sunshine and honey, ONLY because I wanted to see those issues addressed. Not that I even asked him to sell me one, because the very reason why I'm asking questions and such is because I'm in the process of considering buying one. When I make my conclusions based on that only then will I consider it.
My, how highly some must think of themselves. I don't know about you guys, but if a car salesman uses heavy handed tactics like this with me I walk right off the car lot. It's my right as an American consumer to ask questions. That's like walking onto a car lot with a Car Fax print out of the car and the dealer getting all mad and telling me to get off his lot. No problem there, because I'm still weighing the pros and cons of one but if I do decide to buy it'll be used, because I don't play ball with people like that.
Can you imagine that? When's the last time in America you heard a source for a product come out publicly and say they won't sell you that product. I guess I just DARED to ask some questions or spread some posts around from actual users of their product that aren't exactly all sunshine and honey, ONLY because I wanted to see those issues addressed. Not that I even asked him to sell me one, because the very reason why I'm asking questions and such is because I'm in the process of considering buying one. When I make my conclusions based on that only then will I consider it.
My, how highly some must think of themselves. I don't know about you guys, but if a car salesman uses heavy handed tactics like this with me I walk right off the car lot. It's my right as an American consumer to ask questions. That's like walking onto a car lot with a Car Fax print out of the car and the dealer getting all mad and telling me to get off his lot. No problem there, because I'm still weighing the pros and cons of one but if I do decide to buy it'll be used, because I don't play ball with people like that.
I personally don't see how anybody could have been surprised the Bliss wouldn't knock out anything above small foil. It says that very thing in two different spots on their website:
"Setting the Discr Level control at 10 (full discrimination) will knock out foil and small tin but all other non-ferrous, high conductivity targets (from pull tabs on up) will be detected. The BLISSTOOL does a great job at knocking out iron and is designed to find all non-ferrous targets both DEEP and shallow in iron infested areas."
"This metal detector is NOT for the average local park or schoolyard hunter."
That is a pretty honest representation if you ask me. Those looking for a general purpose machine for use in all situations should be able to understand why it wouldn't be a good candidate for that, UNLESS they wanted a beep/dig machine to dig everything above foil. The machine still works in those types of places...but it would be the same reasoning behind why you wouldn't take a pulse machine into those types of areas; you will be overwhelmed with signals, and in most public parks and such, you aren't going to have the luxury of being able to dig every single target.
In the early going with mine I was vocal on the forums about digging a bunch of iron with it, despite having the disc set beyond where I had read it should be totally knocking it out. I was getting pretty frustrated, even making the comment a few times about wanting to wrap it around a tree. The problem was...I got my machine in the first batch that was shipped to the US. Nobody knew anything about it...it was new to us. The manual is a rough translation to English and didn't really explain what each setting done...not very well anyway. So it was a learning process. It took me well over 40 hrs of hunting with it, and playing with settings, to build a foundation for it. Thus a learning curve was big because of not a lot to go by on the internet. My soil is extremely mineralized....always requiring VLF machines to be ran in all metal in order to find things...or the use of pulse machines. When I saw the first video of them in Culpeper, VA with it, I ordered one right after that. Now there is more out there about it, and the learning curve shouldn't be as large for those that get their machines in the next few shipments. Despite my early woes with it and being vocal about wanting to break it into a million pieces....I never got banned from a forum for talking about it like that. I did however, receive private messages and those led to phone calls, from Blisstool folks wanting to help me with the settings they had found to be working for them. I gave some of those a try and was in the same boat...still digging iron...but it was one of the guys at the UK forum that gave an explaination of the gain's relation to the dd setting that helped me more than anything. Once I set it accordingly, my digging iron went down big time. The only iron I dig now, are the big pieces that sound good BUT still have a raspy sound. I dig them in certain sites because I've dug Civil War shell fragments in those sites...otherwise I can tell they are iron and ignore them without digging.
I can't personally give an account for beach hunting. I'm about 8 hours from the nearest salt water beach. I do know I'm not really worried about running low gain levels though if that's what it takes to balance it. I have that same deal here with the ground being so bad. The highest I have been able to set my gain is at 2. I usually have to run it on 1. That was really disappointing to me at first because I thought I was losing all the depth...until I started digging stuff 11, 12, 13 inches deep with it at that low of a gain setting. I'm pretty happy with being able to achieve that depth. It may not be anything for you guys with good dirt to be able to go that deep with other machines...but here in this dirt, we have always had to run VLFs with all metal or run pulse machines to be able to get that deep....neither of which have discrimination, except for the Minelab GPX that has a degree of iron disc. So at least with the Bliss, I am down to that same depth range but am being able to disc nails and such out. That's a big leap for me and I'm happy thus far.
My experience with EMI though has been rather good and surprising. I had an Omega which operates at the same frequency as the Blisstool. At one of my sites, there is a powerline that runs right through the middle of a field. In that field was a skirmish from the Civil War...we dig a lot of shell frags and bullets out of it. I couldn't get within 50 yards of the powerline on either side of it with the Omega. I was scared to take the Bliss there, but once I was there, I didn't have any trouble with it. In one of my videos I show me digging a bullet right out from under the power line. We hunt a lot of urban areas locally for Civil War relics...like when they are doing construction for a new store in town, or putting in subdivisions. I hunt one particular spot that is an up and coming subdivision with underground power leading to it...with little substation hubs around it. In certain times of the day when I had an F75 and T2, I would just have to leave because of the amount of interference coming out of the boxes and the houses already in the subdivision. I couldn't get near the substation hubs at all with those machines, no matter the time of the day. The Bliss don't make any sound up there around it...never been there and had a problem. I do know that it don't like being within a few yards of the Deus or T2.....once you get about 20 yards from one another, you are fine. The CTX 3030 and it did well close to one another once you did a noise cancel on the CTX.
"Setting the Discr Level control at 10 (full discrimination) will knock out foil and small tin but all other non-ferrous, high conductivity targets (from pull tabs on up) will be detected. The BLISSTOOL does a great job at knocking out iron and is designed to find all non-ferrous targets both DEEP and shallow in iron infested areas."
"This metal detector is NOT for the average local park or schoolyard hunter."
That is a pretty honest representation if you ask me. Those looking for a general purpose machine for use in all situations should be able to understand why it wouldn't be a good candidate for that, UNLESS they wanted a beep/dig machine to dig everything above foil. The machine still works in those types of places...but it would be the same reasoning behind why you wouldn't take a pulse machine into those types of areas; you will be overwhelmed with signals, and in most public parks and such, you aren't going to have the luxury of being able to dig every single target.
In the early going with mine I was vocal on the forums about digging a bunch of iron with it, despite having the disc set beyond where I had read it should be totally knocking it out. I was getting pretty frustrated, even making the comment a few times about wanting to wrap it around a tree. The problem was...I got my machine in the first batch that was shipped to the US. Nobody knew anything about it...it was new to us. The manual is a rough translation to English and didn't really explain what each setting done...not very well anyway. So it was a learning process. It took me well over 40 hrs of hunting with it, and playing with settings, to build a foundation for it. Thus a learning curve was big because of not a lot to go by on the internet. My soil is extremely mineralized....always requiring VLF machines to be ran in all metal in order to find things...or the use of pulse machines. When I saw the first video of them in Culpeper, VA with it, I ordered one right after that. Now there is more out there about it, and the learning curve shouldn't be as large for those that get their machines in the next few shipments. Despite my early woes with it and being vocal about wanting to break it into a million pieces....I never got banned from a forum for talking about it like that. I did however, receive private messages and those led to phone calls, from Blisstool folks wanting to help me with the settings they had found to be working for them. I gave some of those a try and was in the same boat...still digging iron...but it was one of the guys at the UK forum that gave an explaination of the gain's relation to the dd setting that helped me more than anything. Once I set it accordingly, my digging iron went down big time. The only iron I dig now, are the big pieces that sound good BUT still have a raspy sound. I dig them in certain sites because I've dug Civil War shell fragments in those sites...otherwise I can tell they are iron and ignore them without digging.
I can't personally give an account for beach hunting. I'm about 8 hours from the nearest salt water beach. I do know I'm not really worried about running low gain levels though if that's what it takes to balance it. I have that same deal here with the ground being so bad. The highest I have been able to set my gain is at 2. I usually have to run it on 1. That was really disappointing to me at first because I thought I was losing all the depth...until I started digging stuff 11, 12, 13 inches deep with it at that low of a gain setting. I'm pretty happy with being able to achieve that depth. It may not be anything for you guys with good dirt to be able to go that deep with other machines...but here in this dirt, we have always had to run VLFs with all metal or run pulse machines to be able to get that deep....neither of which have discrimination, except for the Minelab GPX that has a degree of iron disc. So at least with the Bliss, I am down to that same depth range but am being able to disc nails and such out. That's a big leap for me and I'm happy thus far.
My experience with EMI though has been rather good and surprising. I had an Omega which operates at the same frequency as the Blisstool. At one of my sites, there is a powerline that runs right through the middle of a field. In that field was a skirmish from the Civil War...we dig a lot of shell frags and bullets out of it. I couldn't get within 50 yards of the powerline on either side of it with the Omega. I was scared to take the Bliss there, but once I was there, I didn't have any trouble with it. In one of my videos I show me digging a bullet right out from under the power line. We hunt a lot of urban areas locally for Civil War relics...like when they are doing construction for a new store in town, or putting in subdivisions. I hunt one particular spot that is an up and coming subdivision with underground power leading to it...with little substation hubs around it. In certain times of the day when I had an F75 and T2, I would just have to leave because of the amount of interference coming out of the boxes and the houses already in the subdivision. I couldn't get near the substation hubs at all with those machines, no matter the time of the day. The Bliss don't make any sound up there around it...never been there and had a problem. I do know that it don't like being within a few yards of the Deus or T2.....once you get about 20 yards from one another, you are fine. The CTX 3030 and it did well close to one another once you did a noise cancel on the CTX.
A lady was banned from all local McDonald's resturants because she yelled at the manager of one of them when they got her chicken sandwich order wrong. Happens every day all across the USA. Businesses have the right to ban or refuse service to anybody that they see fit to ban. I can post on my door "no shoes, no shirt, no service" and can refuse service to anybody who comes in without those things...regardless if they had intentions of buying things or not.
You personally have/had 3 offers to see the Blisstool for yourself. I made two of those offers...you could come down, I take you for a guided relic hunt, you could see it for yourself. I even offered you $100 in gas money to come down and on top of that, I said that if the Blisstool wasn't what I said it was in my posts and videos, that I would personally take you to North Georgia Relics and buy you a BRAND NEW Minelab CTX 3030. I even said we would film it all and post the results on every forum we visit. All you had to do was come down. I even said if you couldn't come down, that I would come up to you and show it to you, and we could go to some of your spots that way you would know exactly how it worked in the spots you would be using it. Same deal...if it wasn't everything I said it was in my posts or videos, then we would still video it all and post it on the forums. The only catch to that one was that since I would be the one travelling and paying my own way, when I proved to you that my videos weren't phoney and that my posts weren't lies...that you had to buy a Blisstool on the spot. You turned all three offers down.
What did I get out of the whole thing? I'm not a dealer, nor a paid endorser of the machine. I would have the satisfaction of taking a forum critic, showing them that I've been telling the truth about it the whole time, and get to say "I told you so". That would have been worth it for me just to prove that to you and the world.
You personally have/had 3 offers to see the Blisstool for yourself. I made two of those offers...you could come down, I take you for a guided relic hunt, you could see it for yourself. I even offered you $100 in gas money to come down and on top of that, I said that if the Blisstool wasn't what I said it was in my posts and videos, that I would personally take you to North Georgia Relics and buy you a BRAND NEW Minelab CTX 3030. I even said we would film it all and post the results on every forum we visit. All you had to do was come down. I even said if you couldn't come down, that I would come up to you and show it to you, and we could go to some of your spots that way you would know exactly how it worked in the spots you would be using it. Same deal...if it wasn't everything I said it was in my posts or videos, then we would still video it all and post it on the forums. The only catch to that one was that since I would be the one travelling and paying my own way, when I proved to you that my videos weren't phoney and that my posts weren't lies...that you had to buy a Blisstool on the spot. You turned all three offers down.
What did I get out of the whole thing? I'm not a dealer, nor a paid endorser of the machine. I would have the satisfaction of taking a forum critic, showing them that I've been telling the truth about it the whole time, and get to say "I told you so". That would have been worth it for me just to prove that to you and the world.
Critterhunter
New member
Daniel, as I've already said NUMEROUS times, I have at least two close friends who I trust who recently got their hands on the machine and are running it through it's paces. When I trust what they have to say, and contrast that to what I've been told by others and researched on the net, only then will I *consider* buying one. I honestly dont' know why it is owed conflict and heat from others just because those of us who have some questions and are spreading around reports from ACTUAL USERS are being subjected to heat on the net. After all, what exactly do these forums exist for anyway if we can't weigh and spread information from actual users. The very fact that I was told I'm no longer able to buy one (are there any other sources?) for this very reason only deepens my questions and consumer "suspicouns". Until I'm satisfied, via what the net is intended for in the respect of these forums....Only then will I consider the purchase of such a machine. I can honestly just say that never have I had a distrubotur tell me that they plain out refuse to sell me a product. Hey, I didn't even ask to buy one from then anyway! All I've done is ask some questions, and post a few posts that have *some* less than stellar reviews of that said product, in the hopes of getting my very real questions answered. You'll not find one pure "bashing" post from me on the net on this machine. Only honest questions and in general rules of thumb as to what I have heard this machine's abilities and limitations are. I've summarized what I've gathered from actual users here and there, but beyond that I've simply posted pure unfiltered remarks about what they have to say. I feel that is important, because even if it lives up to all that is claimed *in certain soils*, I've seen at least one buyer who was shocked he couldn't even raise discrimination high enough to knock out anything but small foil. Clearly he wasn't informed, so clearly that job needs done *for some* in a more distinct way to get the message out. I've also seen and re-posted posts from others who are simply not getting the depth claimed *in their soil*, and others saying stability or EMI is an issue for them.
The offer to have me drive out and check it out is meaningless. I'm talking in my soil here, and as said by *some* others they are not getting the results in both depth and stability with this machine *in their soil*. I can't afford to be driving miles away on a promise of $100 in gas money (that will barely get me out of this state), and nor do I have the time to arrange a meeting in my area to see how it does in my soil. Most of my "free time" is taken up with trying to secure a job in this economy of ours. The rest is spent surfing the net on my various interests. Rather, I'll defer to the input from others, some of which that I know and trust, who own this machine. When those answers are met to my satisfaction, only then will I pursue possible tests in my soil.
An educated consumer is a wise consumer. Some bash that process but it is meaningless to me, because I won't jump until I take a good look where I am leaping. Despite what has been said by *some* on various forums, there are yet others who say it is simply not living up to the depth or stability *in their soil for them*. That's where I stand. I do not dispute the depth or stability claims made by some, but as with even Minelabs there are some soils where they just don't "shine" like people say they do. To argue otherwise is somewhat outlandish to me. Being a single frequency machine, with *what appears* to be a conventional ground balance filter, I have some serious questions as to it's ability in various soils and/or beaches. I can't seem to get anybody to answer my question, but based on my *assumption* alone that it is using high amplication to achieve *some* reported depths, I suspected it might be highly subjective to EMI sources. I was roundly bashed for that assumption, but only in the past few days have I found out that the very manual mentions this fact. So, as I turn over more stones to get to the true heart of the matter, only after all those stones have been turned over will I consider buying one myself. Used, that is, because I won't pay a dime to a dealer who has treated me in such a disrespectful (IMHO) manner.
All that said, if and when I feel it has merit when enough and my questions have been ansered to my satisfaction, and less "bashing" of of those with those questions (including me) has been done...Only then will I consider purchasing this machine. The quicker we get to those issues raised by actual users and questions raised by prospected buyers...Only then will purchases be made. Simple as that.
I'll say it one more time. I have said in the past that this machine *appears* to have killer depth for some, and should be useful in some very unique and specific situations. The question is just what situations and how unique are they. THAT....is the key question...Everything else is meaningless.
The offer to have me drive out and check it out is meaningless. I'm talking in my soil here, and as said by *some* others they are not getting the results in both depth and stability with this machine *in their soil*. I can't afford to be driving miles away on a promise of $100 in gas money (that will barely get me out of this state), and nor do I have the time to arrange a meeting in my area to see how it does in my soil. Most of my "free time" is taken up with trying to secure a job in this economy of ours. The rest is spent surfing the net on my various interests. Rather, I'll defer to the input from others, some of which that I know and trust, who own this machine. When those answers are met to my satisfaction, only then will I pursue possible tests in my soil.
An educated consumer is a wise consumer. Some bash that process but it is meaningless to me, because I won't jump until I take a good look where I am leaping. Despite what has been said by *some* on various forums, there are yet others who say it is simply not living up to the depth or stability *in their soil for them*. That's where I stand. I do not dispute the depth or stability claims made by some, but as with even Minelabs there are some soils where they just don't "shine" like people say they do. To argue otherwise is somewhat outlandish to me. Being a single frequency machine, with *what appears* to be a conventional ground balance filter, I have some serious questions as to it's ability in various soils and/or beaches. I can't seem to get anybody to answer my question, but based on my *assumption* alone that it is using high amplication to achieve *some* reported depths, I suspected it might be highly subjective to EMI sources. I was roundly bashed for that assumption, but only in the past few days have I found out that the very manual mentions this fact. So, as I turn over more stones to get to the true heart of the matter, only after all those stones have been turned over will I consider buying one myself. Used, that is, because I won't pay a dime to a dealer who has treated me in such a disrespectful (IMHO) manner.
All that said, if and when I feel it has merit when enough and my questions have been ansered to my satisfaction, and less "bashing" of of those with those questions (including me) has been done...Only then will I consider purchasing this machine. The quicker we get to those issues raised by actual users and questions raised by prospected buyers...Only then will purchases be made. Simple as that.
I'll say it one more time. I have said in the past that this machine *appears* to have killer depth for some, and should be useful in some very unique and specific situations. The question is just what situations and how unique are they. THAT....is the key question...Everything else is meaningless.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
This thread has gone way off topic, it is closed.