I just saw the MASSIVE BREAK THOUGH that is required for metal detectors to report SO MUCH MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mick in Dubbo]

In short. A fractal antenna!!
Just watching a program called Hunting The Hidden Dimensions, It went into the development of how and what fractal geometry is and how that all things in nature are built on it's principals. It's about infinitely repeating patterns that occur on both increasing and decreasing scales, that you can see from the humble tree, to the human brain and space.The first time it was discovered and identified as fractal geometry was when IBM (around 195 were trying to solve the problem of sending data down a telephone line. Electrical noise was stopping them from doing it. A chap by the name of Mandelbrot (I hope I got close to correct with his name) noticed the pattern was very specific. He noticed that the more he zoomed in on it into ever increasing magnification, that it was an exact copy of itself (down to infinity)! That was the birth of Fractal geometry.
Moving ahead many years. This same chap went to an astronomy seminar in which he talked about how factual geometry could impact how space is explored. One of the Astronomer who was there and saw the possibilities of building an antenna using a fractal shape. He tried it with absolute success, which blew him away and had 2 very significant impacts. The first one was that he could significantly reduce the size of an antenna. The second which was a complete surprise, was the fact that a fractal antenna can process far more information as well as a very significant amount more frequencies over a much wider band width than could be done with an ordinary antenna (read coil here guys and girls)! The upshot. Not only did it have a big impact on the astronomy world, mobile phones the world over, now come with fractal antennas as standard! Without a fractal antenna, mobile phones would have to have up to a dozen different antennas on them to do what is required of them.
This brings me to to the apinanthy (light bulb moment). Can you imagine what would be possible if a fractal type coil was developed for metal detectors and the level of accurate information of both ground conditions plus anything that passed under the coil as well! Combine this with the computing power that is found in mobile phones today and we have the possibility of have ground imaging technology that is affordable!
The possibilities of this tech is just plane exciting, don't you think!
Mick Evans.

 

[Muddyshoes]

For decades I've envisioned a technology that x-rays the ground, showing you a graphical representation of what is underneath the coil that you'd be able to view on a little screen, just like you'd see a piece of swallowed metal on a medical X-Ray. Color of the object on the display would change based upon the conductivity. This has lots of uses for locating utility conduits, electric, gas, water, etc. It's only a matter of time. Maybe the technology will be based upon fractal geometry...

I'd be happy with something that reliably ignores pull tabs and lawnmower shredded aluminum can pieces once and for all. I mean, old style pull tabs have been outlawed for what... 25 years now?

 

[Leslie(nova scotia)]

n/t

 

[Furious T]

Mick, that's a fascinating topic you raise, and I'm sure it would work, but I could envisage that each coil would have to be individually tuned to its own detector, otherwise you might get a signal in Dubbo that I've picked up in Tamworth (extreme example, I know).

Muddyshoes, X rays would be great, but I dont look forward to having to wear a lead suit each time I go detecting...radioactivity would eventually get you.

 

[John-Edmonton]

Perhaps ultrasound could be utilized as a safer alternative to xrays. I don't know if a color scheme can be introduced, but the difference between a ring and pull tab image would be a great milestone in the hobby of metal detecting. And it doesn't have to be at great depths either.

 

[fongu]

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Let's see, a metal detector, ground penetrating radar and hopefully, snake detector rolled into one. I got out metal detecting in the shade today and even tho it was 93 degrees everything was sweaty, but fine otherwise. Then, I heard the rattle of a snake and looked around carefully, but could not locate same rattlesnake. The old swimming hole was full of leaves and dry and I went in the direction away from where I heard the rattle. Guess the snake liked the shade more than I did. He was so well camouflaged, I could not find him. I just did not want to step on that snake. Maybe that breakthrough will enable us to avoid snakes. lol
I enjoyed the post, just don't understand anything besides basic math and a little algerbra. Never made it to geometry class. Thanks for sharing.

 

[joekool]

lol, then we wouldn't need a potentiometer for sensitivity

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

They wouldn't be anymore complicated than what you find in your mobile phone, which already has one of these fractal antennas in it.
Even ignoring the ground imaging technology comment that you might hook up to it; if you hook one of these antenna up to a detector, you are using something that is built on the same formula base you are going to find in the ground matrix. Think about how that alone changes the way in which you are trying to compensate for ground noise. Remember, that is exactly how Fractals were discovered in the first place (trying to overcome electrical noise in a telephone line) Instead of compromising on how you do that by certain trade offs; you are now using the same formula structures that the ground is made of. You would be operating on the same page of nature instead of against it. That has a huge potential be be a game changer right there. (Interestingly, fuzzy logic that give computers there artificial intelligence, are built on fractals.)
The full potential of Fractal antennas on detectors is unknown to me, but I got real excited at realising the potential of what might be seriously possible if I had a full working knowledge of the technology. It has the very real potential to turn this hobby on it's head as it can be a very significant quantum leap forward.
Mick Evans.

 

[slingshot]

And it sounds as if such a coil could change much more than that-for instance a metal detector in a walking cane, since the tip could probably radiate 4-6"?

 

[Muddyshoes]

And it sounds as if such a coil could change much more than that-for instance a metal detector in a walking cane, since the tip could probably radiate 4-6"?

I'm pretty sure that's where Automax is going with their V4 Precision Pinpointer . It's half the length of a cane already.

 

[NM5K]

It's no real breakthrough. It's just creative linear loading..
I know the guy you are talking about.. Nathan Cohen..
We had contests to see if his fractal loading could beat
a random linear loading scheme that was drawn using purely
random designs.. Guess what.. He lost.. The random design
beat his fractal design.
Wide bandwidth is not good in general. That means a low Q,
and to have a low Q often means there is excess loss involved.
A fractal loading coil would almost surely be inferior to
the small loop coils we use now. You want a coil with a high
Q, not a low Q. And unless you were running multi frequencies,
there would be no need to use a wide band antenna.
And even if you did, that range is fairly narrow in the overall
scheme of things, and the loop coil would still probably work
better. You can't really make a fractal detecting coil anyway,
unless it was huge. Takes a lot of wire turns, "loading" to
tune the low frequency we use. "Chip" Cohen used his on
the ham bands mostly, and his commercial sales are for
stuff like phones, military gear, etc.. Those are much higher
frequencies.
A lot of his theories are kind of overstated, and actually
follow old conventional theory. IE: a fractal loaded antenna
is the same as a linear loaded antenna.
But a lot of his theories were meant to attract commercial
and military business where the buyers of said gear are
likely bean counters, and wouldn't know a good antenna
is it snuck up on them and bit them in the differential. :/
All that jibber jabber fractal theory makes it sound better
than it really is. Which is what you want when you are trying
to attract gov contracts. :/
On a personal level, the guy is a real jack@$$.. And I'm not
the only one that will tell you that if you ask around.
He lives up in the Boston area.

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

Thanks for the very informative post NM5K. That gave a great and better insight.
Cheers.
Mick Evans.

 

[fongu]

I just want a snake tector......

 

[slingshot]

Yeah, thanks. So could there be an antenna that would radiate, as in the case of a walking cane detector, as to increase a 2" tip's sideways scan? Thanks

 

[metalhead]