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I don't get it why this slow recovery detector is woring in iron trash

I was at a 1 room school house that has been hunted till couldn't find anything any more. I've been thru it with a very fast recovery gold detector. Last night wtih my new Explorer II I had to switch to Ferrous because of all the high tones on iron that was driving me crazy. I'm getting used to Ferrous mode now. Anyway with my iron maxk at -12 I got a hit on the top left corner but it wasn't an iron tone. It was higher pitched but the cross hair was on iron. I dug it and pulled a wheat out. So I'm surprise this slow recovery detector is pulling coins out of all the iron trash that wan't found before. It doesn't make sense and that was with the 10" coil. I'll be getting an X8 coil soon.

I think I'm going to like this detector.

Rick N. MI
 
That's because recovery speed is over rated IMHO. All a fast recovery machine means is that you can swing faster and have less chance of missing targets between others. So long as you sweep slow enough recovery speed is a non-issue on a slow recovery machine. The real key in unmasking is just how sharp the detection field is to "see" between targets, because a coil has to be able to see one target at a time while not "lighting up" the target next to it in order to give a proper ID. If both targets are in the field at the same time, which means they have to be the same depth and laying close to each other, then the detector will average the signal to somewhere between them on the conductivity scale. A detection field can't hit a shallower targert and still have part of it's field continue past the side of it and see something deeper. Instead, the field warps around and interacts with the first metal thing it hits.

All that being said, a sharp detection field is where real separation or unmasking ability lies. DD coils are better in the left/right respective of separation than concentrics because DD coils have a detection line going from the tip to the tail of the coil, so you can wiggle between targets to see one and not light up the other. This can further be enhanced with a good aftermarket coil such as the 12x10, which's unique shape compresses the width of the detection field even more and makes it laser like to sniper between two targets. Of course a small 5 or 6" coil will do better in terms of the length of the detection line for even further unmasking ability, but I'm really impressed with such a large coil's ability like the 12x10 in it's left/right separation abilities. I'd even venture to say that it MIGHT be better in this left/right perspective than even any small round coil I've ever used. Even the Pro Coil is a step up from conventional round DD coils in terms of separation abilities.

Ask yourself this...Would you rather use a fast machine with a blunter detection field, or a slow machine with a much sharper field to "poke" between targets? That's *one* of the reasons why Minelabs excel in finding coins in iron and other trash that some other machines just couldn't find.

There's also one other perk about slow recovery machines. At least for me they seem to "see" and lock onto or at least hit harder on deep targets better than a fast machine. That's because the fast machines I've owned are constantly trying to reset and thus don't allow you to hover over and really "drink in" the signal from a deep target as well. It's like trying to read a sign going 100 mph versus 35 mph. Some people attribute this to the function on some machines where they can adjust the SAT speed (self adjusting threshold). Too high of a number in that respect can actually make things worse because it's constantly trying to reset while you are wanting to take a good slow look at a deep target.

Some people feel it's very important to lower iron rejection as much as possible in order to unmask coins laying in it. In some comparison tests on machines with iron rejection set low versus it set high I feel a coil with a very sharp detection field *might* be just as important in the unmasking respect. If you aren't seeing the iron then you don't have to worry about accepting it. Well, that might be a little too strong of a statement. Let's just say that I feel a sharp detection field but using higher iron rejection can make up for the need to lower iron rejection, or at least make it so you can't see much if any difference between the two...If one machine with low iron rejection is using a coil that isn't as "sharp" as another machine that high iron rejection is set up on but is using a sharper coil. At the very least I've found it evens things out to where any advantage of one over the other is blurry at best. That's just what I've found. Others may strongly differ and I can understand that.

So don't discount your Explorer in trashy areas. The DD coil it came with, in particular if it's the Pro Coil, will do better at separation than a lot of other machines on the market, especially if they are using a concentric coil. And, as said, there are some excellent aftermarket coils on the market for your Explorer such as the 12x10 or 8x6, as well as a few others, that can further enhance your Explorer's already excellent ability to see between targets.
 
Excellent, well-thought-out, logically-sound (to me) post, Critterhunter. I agree with the vast majority of what you said, and you said it well. While I am not sure that coil "footprints" are as clear cut as what we have come to think they are (the "narrow line of detection down the center of a DD coil" is apparently not quite so simple, for instance), the fact remains that a sharp, tight electromagnetic field, to the degree that coil engineers can accomplish that, is -- to me -- more important than "recovery speed." That type of coil would -- as you stated -- be able to see individual targets more cleanly/separately, than one that sees both at one time.

You made a number of great, educational points in your post Critter!

Steve
 
Thanks, I know I get a little long winded but at least I'm detailed. :biggrin:

Just remember, as far as everything I've ever read about coil field dynamics a coil's field can only see one target at a time. The only way it can see two targets is if they are both at the same depth and so close that they'd probably have to be touching...Because the field is like a soap bubble and the first thing it hits "pops" it, with no further ability to see deeper. And when two targets are at the same depth and overlapping they are seen as one target, and thus the conducitivity is averaged to somewhere on the scale halfway between them. Sure, with a sharp detection field (such as a DD coil) you can in fact wiggle over one and not the other and still pull the correct ID out of it in that case. That's one of the perks to a DD coil.

These field "soap bubble" like traits are why even a deeper coin a good bit off to the side of a piece of shallower trash can be masked....Because the coil's field is broader closer to the coil, so if the trash is shallower than the coin the field hits the trash and has no ability (that I've ever read of, anyway) to go any further into the ground. The eddy currents are attracted to and interact or "warp" or "bend" around the first metal thing they hit. It's not like a flashlight beam that can hit a shalllow target and still have part of the light go right past that target and further on to light up something else. In this case the only hope you have of seeing that coin is a good sharp field to wiggle over it and not also "light up" the shallower trash off to the side of it. If the field hits the trash in the slightest way it's game over. I've read reports where even a staple laying on top of the ground completely blocks the signal from a coin deeper below it. If all this is the case then a sharper stick wins, with the ability to "poke" what you want and ignore what you don't want.
 
There is an EXCELLENT article written by somebody on masking, and how a staple even stops the machine from seeing the coin underneath it. Based on his testing he estimates that the VAST majority of silver coins are still left at a "worked out" site and have never been recovered. He even says that many of these iron masking targets, small like a staple, won't even give you an iron response if they are say 3 or 4" deep, but they are still masking the coin below them. Your machine just hums along and doesn't even null because a tiny bit of iron is deep enough at 3 or 4" to not even respond with a null, but you just happily hunt along not even knowing that you just passed up a silver coin that never gave you the slightest peep.

Now, if the staple was laying right on top of the coin then your detection field with proper coil control can see the coin and not the iron if you sniff around at the edges. That's why people find coins with nails laying right on top of them in the hole. If you hit the nail first you won't see the coin because the nail is higher, but if you nip at the edges you'll see the coin and not the nail.

Google "Beneath The Mask, Staple" and those key words will pop the article up, and go ahead and read this excellent article. Also there is a part 2 but you might have to do a bit more searching for that. It will blow your mind reading the stuff contained in this article, and will show you that the vast majority of old coins are still out there waiting to be found. It's not just about the staple test, either. It has more information than that that is very enlightening.

Thus far, there doesn't appear to be any form of technology to change this, so you still need to dig the trash to find the coins if they are deeper than the trash and for the most part under them, although they can be fairly far off to the side of the shallower trash and still be severly masked. But why can the coin be further off to the side of shallower trash and you can't see it, but you can see a coin with a nail laying right on top of it? Because the coil's field is more broad the shallower it is, so it will first hit the shallower trash. But if the nail is right on top of the coin you've got enough "edge" to the detection field to see one and not the other.

That's where a sharp detection field is a must, and so is wiggling between targets to try to "sniff" out a deeper coin at the edge of iron and other junk. Even with those kinds of efforts, some coins simply aren't going to be seen by today's limits in technology unless you dig up the junk first. The detection fields have to follow certain laws of physics that can't be changed, and that means they can't go around corners or hit something shallower and still see a deeper coin. The key is the detection field. You want a sharp tool and not a sledge hammer when trying to "pluck" out those coins hiding among the trash. That means either a coil that further compresses the width of the detection field such as an SEF, or a small round coil to help with the legnth of the detection field.

I know these small odd sized coils that are longer than they are wide are popular to try to have great separation and still get good depth. The way I feel that's a trade off when going to a small coil. I want the most separation possible with depth being totally secondary. That's why I prefer a 5 or 6" round coil for heavy trash, and not one that has a increased tip to toe length to try to increase the depth. On the other hand, in a large coil I prefer a coil shaped like this like the 12x10. It gives you the depth but still compresses the width for excellent left/right separation. Not knocking the small odd shaped coils because I know they get excellent separation and some incredible depths for people.

I know, rambled on WAY too much....So I apologize, but hope you've found something useful out of this.
 
More extensive detail on masking and coil dynamics can be found here...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1684318
 
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