Hunting sites illegally . . .. what it means to the hobby (current news story)

[Andy Sabisch]

Here's an interesting story that JUST came to light and unfortunately shows that a highly visible minority can have some far reaching ramifications for the rest of us. I was told about this pair of occurrences by several state and federal archeologists that I know and wanted to pass it along here . . . . . .

If you know of someone breaking the law and collecting artifacts illegally, drop a dime and keep the rest of us from being branded with the same negative stamp.

I welcome any thoughts on the articles

http://thesga.org/2010/01/stiff-fines-for-site-looting-handed-down-in-burke-county/


Andy Sabisch

 

[B.T]

We don't have places like that over here in Oz but our problem is with gold hunters doing similar. There are plenty who go where ever or when ever they feel like it.
Often moonlight raiding private properties or reserve areas. Its a real pain in the A when you do all the right things to obtain permission only to find the spots been smashed by night grubs and cleaned out. You know its the grub brigade because all the holes are unfilled. Its not uncommon to hear of farmers finding livestock with broken legs from unfilled holes or breaking axles on equipment and so on from the same, all left courtesy of the night grubs. You can sometimes walk up to a farmhouse to obtain or seek permission only to be met with a barrage of abuse at what they think detector operators are. You would be surprised just how many so called successful operators do this! Take away their night finds, fence jump collections & illegal dozer pushes and they would have no more success than many of your other average operators.

 

[usmc0351]

was the state of georgia working on doing something with this site,,,,probably not,,,,,i did the same thing as a kid,, so did ,,my father,, my grandfather,,, my great grandfather,,,ect......of course we did our digging on our family farm,,,,i dont know how many colleges contacted my family over the years wanting to do a summer dig,,,,,,the only problem that i have with this article is the boys didnt ask for permission,,,,,i got no problem with people going out and saving a little history,,,if we left up to the "experts" it would all rot away,,,,,ive been cw relic hunting for years,,,if heard a ton of stories of folks sneaking into this battlefield or that battlefield,,,,and ive even heard or a couple of park rangers who werent so ethical,,,,i may not agree with their methods,,i sure as heck dont agree with the experts,,,the old nps line,,,"they are robbing everyones history" come on,,, what a joke,,,we have left this up to the nps and they have decided to let it rot in the ground,,,,unless that is they want to build a road. i try to do things the right way,,,,,,but id rather see a box plate dug up in the middle of the night end up in a relic show than allow it to sit in the ground and rot away to nothing,,,,,,but thats only opinion

 

[goldnugget]

If I see any of those Looters from the Georgia Department of Natural resources on any of my property, I hope they get the same treatmen before a Judge. I bet they filled they pockets full of some of the bone pieces

 

[jhettel]

If I dropped a dime it would be on myself and my hunting buddies.

Sorry, I am not a snitch.

 

[Andy Sabisch]

n/t

 

[grumpyolman]

The pendulum has just swung a little too far in favor of the archeologist and the establishment. Raiding in looting is out. But so should be banning detector folks from public parks, beaches, and a whole lot of other public areas which is usually initiated by some liberal archeologist who wants total access to history and a full-time job being paid for what we do for fun. Jim

 

[kylonghunter]

As long as your not digging into a burial site, I see nothing wrong with digging. If I own the property, I should be able to dig where and when I want! Period!!!

 

[Andy Sabisch]

In this case, the diggers did not own the property or have permission to be there.

Several people have posted that this is not a story about metal detector users. While that may be true, there have been a number of stories in the papers and magazines in recent years of detectorists hunting National Battlefield sites under the cover of darkness where it was clear they knew they were doing something illegal.

I've talked to land owners when trying to gain access to areas that said no because people had come in under the cover of darkness ro when they were not home and left holes on their land.

The point I wanted to make was that if we do not police ourselves, we will not have to worry about it in the future as there will no places left open to hunt,

 

[usmc0351]

i have no problem with a guy hunting a national battlelfield at night,,,,like i said, id rather see that box plate that was hunted illegally end up in a relic show that have the national park service decide that its more important to leave it in the ground and let it rot. if you could take a poll of the old timers in virginia who've jumped a fence to get on nps property you'd be surprised, very surprised, let me say that again, very, very surprised. In the 70's I didnt know a soul who had never jumped a fence, but if i had a dime for every guy who's told me they have,,,well i'd have a few bucks in my pocket. I dont condone or support such things, but in reality, I dont have a problem with it, as a matter of fact, i get tickled when some fellow tells me how he dug this or that relic. The National Park Service is a joke in regards to saving history, thats right a joke, so again, if some guy wants to risk it by jumping a fence at two in the morning,,,hey, who am i to judge him.

 

[Andy Sabisch]

And it's a wonder why more and more laws get enacted in response to this behavior . . . . . .

 

[Deno]

was the state of georgia working on doing something with this site,,,,probably not,,,,,i did the same thing as a kid,, so did ,,my father,, my grandfather,,, my great grandfather,,,ect......of course we did our digging on our family farm,,,,i dont know how many colleges contacted my family over the years wanting to do a summer dig,,,,,,the only problem that i have with this article is the boys didnt ask for permission,,,,,i got no problem with people going out and saving a little history,,,if we left up to the "experts" it would all rot away,,,,,ive been cw relic hunting for years,,,if heard a ton of stories of folks sneaking into this battlefield or that battlefield,,,,and ive even heard or a couple of park rangers who werent so ethical,,,,i may not agree with their methods,,i sure as heck dont agree with the experts,,,the old nps line,,,"they are robbing everyones history" come on,,, what a joke,,,we have left this up to the nps and they have decided to let it rot in the ground,,,,unless that is they want to build a road. i try to do things the right way,,,,,,but id rather see a box plate dug up in the middle of the night end up in a relic show than allow it to sit in the ground and rot away to nothing,,,,,,but thats only opinion

I agree.

 

[usmc0351]

Good luck to you, when you convince congress that its a good idea to save history let me know. Let me give you this example, many, many years ago I was hunting with permission on private property in yorktown, va. The property I was hunting on butted up to the nps. I dug a ton of bullets, buttons, brass, coins, you name it, I dug it there. The property owners also shared in these finds. How many .58 cal. bullets can a guy have in his lifetime, I gave these folks a ton of stuff. I was also allowed to bring a couple of other diggers with me, and they also shared their finds with these folks. The owners daughter was a teacher in Newport News, Va, she was thrilled to have these things to share with here students. Now lets get back to the that imaginary line that seperates this guys property and the nps's property. On private property history was saved, yes that little pistol bullet to me is "history". Who knows how many people have viewed the items I dug there many years ago. But lets now "jump" the fence over to the nps's property. It still sits in the ground, unless they've built a road, outhouse, or a frisbee golf course on it, then maybe some college kids were invited in to do a "survey" of the area. You are fooling yourself if you think these laws that were enacted by the congress of the united states will ever be changed. I'm not adding fuel to the fire, this fire has been burning since the u.s. goverment has been telling us what we can and cannot do on public property. Now let me ask you this,,,,would you mind giving me that list of the "more and more laws" that are enacted in response to this behavior. I'm kinda interested in just what laws you are talking about. As a matter of fact, why don't you list all these laws that have been enacted. List all these laws so all of us on here can have a better understanding of what you are talkng about. I still to this day do a lot of relic hunting in Virginia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Missouri, Alabama, and Georgia. Have any new laws been enacted there. i'.m really interested in these more and more laws in regards to relic hunting. I don't think you could list one law. I think its the tree hugging crowd like you that adds fuel to this fire.

 

[jbow]

I agree too but the govt has the power... and I don't have 100k for a fine, nor do I have an extra F-150 and I wouldn't want them at my home stealing all my relics, stuff my dad gave me, and anything else they might decide to take.

But I agree, their rules are made by fools and ignorant self important little snits. They deserve to be broken. Bad laws are bad laws but I can't afford to take the chance.

They should have planned hunts and recover relics before they rot completely away, especially in the areas where they spread fertilizer.

At the local NP battlefield one of the rangers is really "into it". He uses night vision goggles etc and patrols, but it's a really big park and the budget is not what it could be. That is his kind of hunting and I think he enjoys it a lot. I haven't heard of him catching anyone though. Still, I can't afford to take the chance. The rangers there will stop you and ask if you have written permission even if you are on property that borders the park... that, I don't understand. I know it's the law that you must have written permission with you while hunting private property here but I don't understand why they care. It's like they really want everything to stay IN THE GROUND where it belongs... I don't understand it.

J

 

[Andy Sabisch]

There have been a number of laws passed over the past 10 years in the states you claim to hunt with no restrictions.

How about starting with Georgia that has enacted laws that have impacted relic hunters on PRIVATE property.

http://gashpo.org/content/displaycontent.asp?txtDocument=440

Follow some of the links such as this one:

http://gashpo.org/Assets/Documents/12-3-621.pdf

Guess what - you can actually be fined for hunting on private property as some have discovered.

Have you done anything to help change laws that have been proposed or repeal those already enacted?

I have . . . . let's see what you have done

 

[jbow]

There is a relatively recent law in GA. It was aimed at people digging indian burial mounds but the DNR took it upon themselves to expand it to anyone on any private property picking up an arrowhead or detecting and hunting for any relics. Now, due to this stupid law we are supposed to have, on our person, written permission from the land owner. Verbal permission is not enough, even though really it is. I know of one case where a guy got a fine and probation... for hunting on private property with permission... and another case were the judge basically threw it out of court.

I don't know many people who get written permission, though it is a good idea in any case... most land owners balk at signing their name on something, they say... just go hunt it, you have my permission but most people don't care to sign something.

OK, you have pressed my buttons...

Laws... we need a few but we don't need anywhere near what we have and the problem isn't so much the laws as it is the people in the "department of bullcrap" who come up with a bunch of regulations that they decide necessary to enforce the new law according to their interpretation and bias.... that is what happened with this law. The DNR took the law and came up with "guidelines" and "rules" to enforce the law as they read it. The guys and gals at any capital make more and more laws every year, they have to justify their job you know. Then they hire more and more people to enforce the regulations that they come up with to implement the new regulations based on the new laws and they request more funds to pay the new hirelings and to enforce the new regulations. Pretty soon more that 50% of the workforce is going to be government workers, then we'll be screwed... well, really we're already screwed because we don't stand up for our freedom. We are like a frog in a pot of cool water set on the stove... progressivism is the burner We let the government take our freedom in return for security... bit by bit... and we really don't have any security because the government does not care about the people. They have a union you know... SEIU.

Sometimes I wonder if it might be a good thing if the US broke up into several regions sort of like the USSR did. I wonder if secession might still be a good idea and I fly my Bonnie Blue flag at least once a month. Our federal government, (thank you Mr. Lincoln), is way out of it's bounds and all I can really do is complain about it and vote... and I do both. The other problem is the other people who vote, people who are both ignorant and who have a conflict of interest if they receive government welfare of any kind.

There is no right to vote for president and they should repeal the 17th ammendment. I'd love to see the states appoint electors without a popular election for presidential election... what a civics lesson that would be !!! I think maybe we would get a better president if we did away with the beauty contest we have now. You know that each state has the right to decide to allow or not allow the people to vote in a presidential election. The state government can just appoint electors if they so choose... i'd just LOVE to see at least one state invoke their right to do it... what fun that would be to see a state exert its right over the federal government. Some states are passing constitutional ammendments and laws that will throw wrenches in the gears of Obama's "health no care" plan. I am all for local and state power. I think I was born about 120 years late...

"Tyranny naturally arises out of democracy." Plato

"Democracy is the road to socialism." Karl Marx

"Our country's founders cherished liberty, not democracy." Ron Paul

"Democracy means government by the uneducated, while aristocracy means government by the badly educated." G.K. Chesterton

and finally...

 

[bcoop]

n/t

 

[Andy Sabisch]

You seem to think that no new laws get proposed or passed . . . well here's one coming up in the next month.

http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20100218/NEWS01/100218038/1009

How about doing something to let he powers to be know why it is a bad idea and help stop it BEFORE it gets enacted or do you feel that it is a joke and would not worry about abiding by it even if it was enacted?

I think we are all interested in what YOU would do NOW to help stem this new law off before it gets passed . . . . so feel free to post what you are going to do other than say it is a law without merit . . . . it will still be a law without any action.

For me, I wrote several letters to my federal officials, posted this on several forums, contacted a number of clubs in the area and am drafting up a package to send to the Forest Service in DC and the local office covering the POSITIVE aspects of the hobby . . . . . let's see what USMC0351 has planned

Andy

 

[usmc0351]

This is what i have planned, i'm leaving the house this morning to meet up with two fine diggers, and we off to hunt a place ive been researching. After we dig there, then i'm off to a ladies house to give her some bullets and buttons i found yesterday on her property. I'm not gonna sit around the house all day fretting about what the goverment says i can and cant do. I have more than enough places to hunt. And when relic hunting turns into water hunting this summer, im not gonna throw a tissy fit when some beach community in florida passes a local ordinance against metal detecting, why becasue i have plenty of places to water hunt also. you can write all the letters you want, go to every club in the land, its money and the lobby that gets the laws changed and it aint happening here. i have a glove box full of notes from property owners in georgia, i had to show a note one time, after i showed it, i asked the jerk what right he had just to walk on to someones property,,,of course he couldnt give me an answer, but he got a lesson in the the 4th ammendment in regards to unreasonable searches, and his lesson included a lot of words that started with the letter "f". but i do agree with you, if you want me to write a letter, sign a pettition, call my congress man, i'd be more than happy, but its a battle that will never be won. but i'll give me take on this again, if some guy digs something on nps's property at three in the morning,,so what,,,its not me doing the digging,,,,ive done a lot of diggin in virginia and not one time did a property owner tell me,,,,well no you cant hunt because some fellows got caught in fredricksburg, and you guys are no good. ive been farming my hole life, ive never broke an axle on tractor after sone guy didnt fill his hole after digging a bullet,,,,,and i have never heard of cow breaking a leg,,,you ever see the ruts cows leave in a wet pasturem ever see how fast a cow runs,,,,,some of the comments in this thread tickle me,,,but people love jumping on the band wagon.

 

[bcoop]

The 4th amendment DOES NOT protect open fields. In other words if you have a marijuana growing operation on your wooded farm or a moonshine operation, law enforcement can jump the fence and walk over your property and look for it. When they find it they can photograph it then take the information to a judge to get a search warrant for all property and all buildings and curtilage surrounding those buildings. (Curtilage) Is the grounds surrounding the home and outbuildings, in other words your lawn.

The 4th amendment DOES protect buildings and the curtilage of the buildings but NOT open fields. So if your in an open field and a law enforcement officer thinks your up to no good they can walk across the field and ask you what your doing. That my friend is not an unlawful search or seizure, that would be called a Terry stop and he can ask you any question he wants to.

I agree that some laws may not be worth the paper they are written on and probably were written by a professional politician because some lobbyist was paid a boat load of money to get it passed because some well funded extreme group wanted it passed to protect their self interest, which inturn was given a lot of money toward his/her campaign. If your going to take the law in your own hands and tress pass and do what you think is right in your own mind then where do we draw the line. Do we let the professional thief keep robbing, burglarizing and stealing because that is all he knows and wants to do. Just because he thinks the laws against it are stupid and he is too lazy to get a job.

Some folks seem go be down on laws and law enforcement all the time until they need one, or want to use an amendment which is a law in sorts to protect the people from the government.