Menu
What's new
Find's Treasure Forums

Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!

You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.

Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.

Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.

Click here to register!

Need Support Help?

Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you

Changed email? Forgot to update your account with new email address? Need assistance with something else?, click here to go to Find's Support Form and fill out the form.

DeepTech

How much DEPTH are we seeing w/the 4"coil compadre??

COME'ON ALL YOU MODIFIERS OUT THERE?? ESPECIALL THE GUY WHO PULLED ALOT OF COINS OUT OF AN AREA THAT JUST BEEN GONE OVER WITH FISHERS CZ 3D only hours before. How bout it MONTE???
Rusty, Chicago <img src="/metal/html/shocked.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":shock"><span style="background-color:#ffff00;"></span>
 
The Compadre w/4 inch coil mod isn't made for "DEPTH". Anyone who has been detecting for more than a week or two realizes there is alot more to a detectors performance in extreme trash environments than "DEPTH". On average, the mod will get you 5 to 6 inch deep coins depending on the ground conditions and the target, but will pick them out of trash as good or better than anything I've used in the last 35 years. Go back and read the comments about the 3D and you will see that there was a masking problem with that particular machine due to all the trash. The 3D is NOT a good coin machine in trashy environments. even with the smaller 5 inch coil, but then it wasn't meant to be either. Depth wasn't the issue.....Target masking was the issue. I don't care what machine you swing, you are not going to get "DEPTH" in the kind of trash we are talking about here, contrary to all the mumbo-jumbo advertising from the different manufacturers.
 
been detecting for a quarter century, almost half a century.and were surprised when XLT or Explorer technology made it's debut. sun-ray, excelerator, garrett, fisher,etc, all have smaller coils to sell.
And Yes weaving in and out of trash is very important. But would'nt it be nice to have "top notch' target seperation AND Depth?
Rusty, Chicago. <img src="/metal/html/smile.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":)">
 
Surely you're not insinuating the manufacturers would intentionally mislead us are you<img src="http://images.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.gif">?
JB<center><img src="http://www.kellycodetectors.com/images/17-frequency-chart.gif"></center>
 
I've been detecting for 35 years Rusty, didn't just fall off the turnip truck. <img src="/metal/html/wink.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=";)"> But technology or no technology, they all work and are limited by the same laws of physics. Minelabs are notorious for "nulling" over iron. Does that mean they don't have masking problems because you can't hear those masking problems ? Hardly ! All induction balance machines that encounter different targets of widely different relative conductivity values react to a combination of both targets, and don't have the inate ability to "separate" one from the other when they are both under the coil at the same time. Yep, it would be nice if those "super-duper" machines could shoot a laser beam right through the trash and find "only the good stuff" like some of the manufacturers would have us believe, but it just ain't happening. Whether you call it "masking" or "averaging", it amounts to the same thing.....one metal causing another metal to "read" differently in the RX circuits of the detector, in most cases the "bad" metal pulling the "good" metal into an "apparent" conductivity range that registers like trash. There are a few exceptions, but this is the case more often than not. You might be able to get "depth" in the trash, since your detector basically "sees" everything under the coil, including the ground, whether it "beeps" or not, but you are NOT going to get good discrimination at depth in heavy trash with current technology.
Following someone using a $700 machine around with a $150 machine and cleaning up what they just missed does tend to piss people off ! It's just a matter of the right tool for the job. Nothing more and nothing less. Doesn't mean one machine is "better" than the other for everything, just that one thing in particular. And I'm aware that other manufacturers sell small coils for their machines. They do not all perform equally well (coils OR machines), been there and done that with most of them.
I'm not sure what you mean by people being "surprised" at XLT or Explorer "technology", other than it sounds like maybe you put too much stock in what you "hear" rather than what you experience for yourself. They don't call it "marketing" for nothing. Reminds me of the old saying that "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull-shit". And it's pretty easy to spot the inexperienced here on the forums....the ones who are all over the internet wanting to know if this machine or that machine is "the best". Unfortunately, there is no such animal in the world of metal detecting.
Ralph
 
Ever notice how they conveniently forget to show the "arrows" going back into the machine that indicate how many frequencies they are actually "receiving" ? <img src="/metal/html/lol.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":lol">
 
hey ralph!..do you think that a tesoro silver u-max
with a 7" coil on board is a hot set up for trash?
regards!...john.
 
Hi John,
Haven't used that particular machine, but it should work well. I would still opt for the 4 inch coil for the heaviest trash concentrations though. That little coil is hard to beat for picking coins out of the junk.
Ralph
 
thanks ralph for the response!i have a siver u-max
(bought it for my daughter!)it hasn't seen much use,
due to the fact i also have a f***** with a 5" coil.
i've never found much with the f****,and i believe i
know why.the f**** recovers too slowly in trash,and
i still get multiple targets under the coil.would the silver recover more quickly in the same trash
environement with the 4" coil on board than the f***** with the 5" coil in your opinion?
in other words,do you think the silver would isolate
targets better on a comparison basis?..have you used
a f**** with the 5" coil in a similar environement?
regards!....john. <img src="/metal/html/confused.gif" border=0 width=15 height=22 alt=":?">
 
Absolutely !!! That is one of my major peeves about the CZ, that it has such a slow target acquisition and recovery speed that you can be several inches PAST the target before you get a target response if your coil sweep is even moderately fast. I liken it to hunting with a "drunk" detector in comparison to one that is completely sober..... <img src="/metal/html/wink.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=";)"> And YES the Tesoros have a considerably faster target acquisition and recovery speed. With the 4 inch coil on the Compadre, you can actually place two coins less than 1/2 inch apart and easily separate the target response between the two. Place several coins side by side in the same manner, use a slower coil sweep speed, and you will hear each and every coin as a separate target. Try that with a CZ sometime. Target acquisition and recovery speed is one of the keys, along with a smaller coil, to obtaining the best possible trash/target separation capability. The "slower" machines and larger coils are more prone to not only "batching" targets, but also the "masking" problems that come about as a result.
Fast detectors and small coils will find you alot of good targets that others have missed.
 
Bring up the subject of ferrite masking (think a nice blanket of cinders) and what kind of associated problems that brings on for almost every detector -- even those "surprising technology" ones <img src="/metal/html/wink.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=";)">;)
Scott
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong (and I'll point you to the correct person to argue *this* one with if I am wrong), but way I understand it, Tesoro was originally (and perhaps continues to be?) built on that original "F" technology.
Second, the new Fs are nothing like the F you're referring to. I currently own one of the new ones, and there's no such thing as "slow recovery speed." I could go on more on some other things, but this isn't an F forum.
However, I've owned a few Tesoros, and despite their outstanding separation abilities, there's no way you're better off with a 7" coil instead of a 4" coil for separation. Like Ralph mentioned before, there's FAR more to performance than depth. And really, if anyone was worried about getting depth with most Tesoros, they wouldn't be using anything less than a 10.5" coil.
Scott
 
Nobody who has been doing this hobby for more than a season or so buys a 4" coil for depth. Especially if you consider the basic thumbnail equation long-held in this hobby that a coil's size is roughly about as good as the depth it'll get in even the finest of circumstances -- no matter *what* detector you slap it onto -- and most notably no matter what Tesoro you slap it onto.
A 4" coil will basically get you 4" of depth. But in really trashy places, it'll find considerably more stuff within a Lesche blade's depth than an 8" coil ever will on the same detector. That's a fact.
Scott
 
....that a coil is generally only good for depth roughly equal to the diameter of the coil. I can name a couple of obvious exceptions in the X5 with 5 inch coil and the Nautilus DMC-IIb with the 6 inch coil. Either of those machines is capable of detecting targets (in the ground) at twice their coil diameter, depending on the usual ground matrix variables, target, etc. I thought for years that kind of performance was not possible on smaller targets, but have experienced it first hand with these two machines.
Now to clarify things a little, this is generally not something you are going to see with larger coils and the same small targets. In other words, don't go out with a 15 inch coil and expect to dig 30 inch deep coins or gold wedding bands. You have a rate of "diminishing returns" in the sensitivity department as the coil diameter gets bigger. And who the hell wants to dig 30 inches for a zinc, not that there is much that deep anyway..... <img src="/metal/html/smile.gif" border=0 width=15 height=15 alt=":)">
Even so, the Tesoro 4 inch coil on the Compadre will pick out coins (again, in the ground) at a maximum of about 5-6 inches with the right "tweeking" of the internal trimmers, but would be very hard-pressed to get 8 inches on any of the Tesoro models.
 
Hi Scott,
Alot of people misunderstand the difference between self-adjusting threshold (SAT) and target recovery speed. There IS indeed such a thing as slow recovery speed, but a FAST SAT can help overcome such problems. The trouble is, most machines do not have a variable SAT speed that can be adjusted by the operator.
When I referred to "slow acquisition and recovery" of the 3D, I was talking about how critical it is to use a slow to moderate coil sweep speed to keep from missing or "overshooting" target signals. You can understand what I'm talking about if you will pass a coin back and forth quickly over the coil, and listen to the "delay" in how soon the target actually produces a signal. If you are using a faster sweep speed of the coil and pass it over a target lying in plain sight on the ground, the target signal appears to be several inches "past" the actual target. This is what I mean by "slow acquisition". So if you have another target in close proximity to the first one and in line with the first one, there is no time for "recovery" and detection or separation of the second.
Something else you can do to get a feel for these "speeds" on any machine is to take a coin and "whip" it back and forth under the coil as fast as you possibly can for a distance just a little larger than the coil diameter itself. A fast machine will signal on the coin with each pass, while a "slow" machine will stutter and stammer and miss many of the passes. The faster machine will also give the target signal closer to the center of the coil, while the slow one will be more obvious by the "hits" appearing to be closer to the edge of the coil in one direction and missing in the other. It's kind of a "retarded reaction". On the 3D, it was VERY noticeable to me.
Also, as far as Tesoros being based on Fisher technology, ALL machines share some basic things in common in the general way they operate. But the only connection or similarities I've ever seen between Fisher and Tesoro were the LST and Diablo uMax, both of which were designed "out of house" by Dave Johnson, who also designed for Fisher, including the 1200x series machines, Gold Bugs, CZs, and other models/brands. Jack Gifford has designed detectors since the late 70s with companies such as Bounty Hunter, C&G, and others I'm probably not aware of, and had alot to do with early motion discrimination design from my understanding. But there are really no concrete similarities in most Tesoro and Fisher models from what I've experienced.
 
Just to come to your aid in a way somewhat.
I got you in detector time and experience for longevity and actually was detecting probably when certain people was in diapers and ? was doing what ever he was . there may have been 50 models of bandito tesoros and there may have been a zilion models of other detectors. but I have used the 4 inch coil on the bandito II Umax and was able to detect coins 5 and 6 inches deep. I was able to detect a gold ring 6 inches deep while years ago with a garret and sniper coil only 4 inches max could I get .
So for me all the stuff these guys like Monte an Scott is hog wash as I believe my own experience.
7 inch coil out does the 8 inch coil just like the 8 inch brown coil and 8x9 coils . The biggest difference is in the imagination ( and bigger still the extra costs to try each )
I prefer to put a postive spin on equipment because that negative has been proven wrong to many times by optomistic detectorists . All the coils and accessories are there to be used and taken advantage of by those who really care to get the most this hobby are there for the offering. Whether it is need or not who cares its for the hobbiest to enjoy. If I bought all the fishing stuff out ther I probably , wow I sure would have quite a collecion of stuff and I already have alot, Same goes with hunting, how about golfers.
If you can afford and it picks your interests go for it don 't listen to negatives .
Some how all the technicalities aside stuff works better then expected many times and not so good other times. You won't ever know by listening or just doing the paper work of others and what they say as its in your ground and your experience that may prove them all wrong.
HH
Dan R.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top