we know the EQ.. has up to 5 friq.plus multi so lets say it uses 3 of them in any given program...or all in multi....how many does like say the Etrac use at one time...or does it depend on what number your noise cancel picks when you press it....I've heard number 1.2.3 is good for silver and 9,10 is good for nickels or gold area....tells me it's using diff friq....not all what 28 of them...??
Find's Treasure Forums
Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!
You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.
Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.
Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.
Click here to register!
Need Support Help?
Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you
Changed email? Forgot to update your account with new email address? Need assistance with something else?, click here to go to Find's Support Form and fill out the form.
how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
- Thread starter Ksdirt
- Start date
Jason in Enid
Active member
Ksdirt said:
exactly what the FBS detectors do and how they do it are officially unknown. They claim XX number of frequencies, but end-user testing SEEMS to show that it is only using a few transmit frequencies and the rest of the frequencies are harmonics received off the transmitted ones. Since nobody knows exactly what is happening with detectors that have been on the market for 10 years, don't expect any answers on a detector that hasnt even been finalized for sales.
sprchng
Well-known member
From another site:
Dr. Tones
The Equinox uses different sets of multiple frequencies in each mode. The "parks" mode is on the lower end of the spectrum and is intended for deeper coin hunting like we would have in the US parks, sports fields etc. The "Fields" mode uses frequencies that are more geared towards the UK/European hunting style in that it's more sensitive to smaller bits i.e. cut hammered, 1/4 staters etc. Beach mode will only operate in Multi frequency and is tailored to suit highly mineralized ground conditions. Prospecting opperates on 20 or 40 kHz and is designed to hit small gold at a reasonable depth in highly mineralized ground. Keep in mind, these modes are still being tweaked and there might be some minor modifications made to improve performance. I think what a lot of people aren't focusing on, is that Multi-IQ is handles mineralized ground better than FBS/BBS. This is why I believe my Equinox is achieving better depth in my hunting areas than my CTX. We all tend to get very hung up on lower frequencies being deeper but that's only half of the equation. How the frequencies are delivered/received plays an equally important roll to how they react with targets in the ground. For example, a 5kHz frequency delivered in Multi-IQ might penetrate mineralized ground better than a 3kHz frequency in FBS. Just like an atom bomb detonated in air would be more catastrophic than the same bomb detonated on the ground. Delivery is key. The Nox is just a whole new category and I know we want to do what's natural and compare it to what we know, but the fact is, we can't... because it's just different.
DISCLAIMER- I'm not an engineer and these examples are how I've interpreted my experience.
To reiterate, I'm not sure why I'm getting the current results that I am. This is my speculation and as I have stated, I'm a fireman, not an engineer and in time, Minelab will release details on the functionality of Multi-IQ. Until then, it's anyone's guess (including my own).
Dr. Tones
The Equinox uses different sets of multiple frequencies in each mode. The "parks" mode is on the lower end of the spectrum and is intended for deeper coin hunting like we would have in the US parks, sports fields etc. The "Fields" mode uses frequencies that are more geared towards the UK/European hunting style in that it's more sensitive to smaller bits i.e. cut hammered, 1/4 staters etc. Beach mode will only operate in Multi frequency and is tailored to suit highly mineralized ground conditions. Prospecting opperates on 20 or 40 kHz and is designed to hit small gold at a reasonable depth in highly mineralized ground. Keep in mind, these modes are still being tweaked and there might be some minor modifications made to improve performance. I think what a lot of people aren't focusing on, is that Multi-IQ is handles mineralized ground better than FBS/BBS. This is why I believe my Equinox is achieving better depth in my hunting areas than my CTX. We all tend to get very hung up on lower frequencies being deeper but that's only half of the equation. How the frequencies are delivered/received plays an equally important roll to how they react with targets in the ground. For example, a 5kHz frequency delivered in Multi-IQ might penetrate mineralized ground better than a 3kHz frequency in FBS. Just like an atom bomb detonated in air would be more catastrophic than the same bomb detonated on the ground. Delivery is key. The Nox is just a whole new category and I know we want to do what's natural and compare it to what we know, but the fact is, we can't... because it's just different.
DISCLAIMER- I'm not an engineer and these examples are how I've interpreted my experience.
To reiterate, I'm not sure why I'm getting the current results that I am. This is my speculation and as I have stated, I'm a fireman, not an engineer and in time, Minelab will release details on the functionality of Multi-IQ. Until then, it's anyone's guess (including my own).
Parkologist
New member
2
masterjedi
New member
They say the FBS units run 28 FREQ's from 1.5 to 100 all of the time.
sgoss66
Well-known member
Apparently, "two" is the correct answer, though I think there is more going on than that. But Jason is right -- it's proprietary and I'm not sure there are many people with that info. But, someone I feel is a very trustworthy source (a detector design engineer, though not from Minelab) has stated a number of times in the past that FBS really only transmits two frequencies at a time...
Steve
Steve
dewcon4414
Well-known member
Steve...... we know these are harmonics, not really freqs, two seems to be used/averaged for TID and one for GB. Also, some say in many cases it runs near 3Khz.... obviously good for deep hunting and the noise cancel aids in shifting the freqs a bit. It will be interesting to see if they get 5Khz to function better than 3 in combo with 15Kzh. I know the DFX could use both...... it was a little more sensitive than an Explorer on the Fl beach, but fell behind in depth in the dry sand on depth. The DFX also had to go into a factory GB sometimes. IF... big IF it lives up to the hype and performs AS WELL as an Xcal in the water i think it could put a hurt on the ATs. To me ill have to see how it performs against an modified Xcal IN THE SALT WATER. Ive not heard much about this yet. Didnt get the best machine first time around with the CTX not having a salt setting.
Dew
Dew
sgoss66
Well-known member
Dew -- can you touch a little bit on the "harmonics" thing? Everything I've read says that "harmonics" are much weaker than the primary transmit frequency, and as such are of little if any use in terms of detector performance. Now, I know NOTHING of this, but can you elaborate at all? I mean with some people -- who should be "in the know" -- insisting that both FBS and BBS are really nothing more than "two-frequency" machines, and yet others pointing out this "harmonics" thing (suggestive that there is more going on that the simple "two frequency" thing), I'd love to hear more info on it.
Also, I have heard others, beside you here in this post, talk about some combination of frequencies for "detection," and another for "ground balance" or "ground compensation." I ASSUME what that means is that one transmitted signal is simply there to be received and processed by the machine to determine/calculate the degree of soil reactivity? And then this "calculation" is somehow "used" and "accounted for" by the machine, "subtracted out," if you will -- essentially rendering the other frequencies relatively "uncontaminated" and able to "focus on" target ID? Is this a reasonable understanding?
Steve
Also, I have heard others, beside you here in this post, talk about some combination of frequencies for "detection," and another for "ground balance" or "ground compensation." I ASSUME what that means is that one transmitted signal is simply there to be received and processed by the machine to determine/calculate the degree of soil reactivity? And then this "calculation" is somehow "used" and "accounted for" by the machine, "subtracted out," if you will -- essentially rendering the other frequencies relatively "uncontaminated" and able to "focus on" target ID? Is this a reasonable understanding?
Steve
Mr. Carolina
Member
Well this is my two cents worth. I don't know. What I have been taught by " others in the know " is that FBS runs 28 frequencies 1.5 to 100. ( I don't know ). I also have been taught that assuming you are running in auto noise cancel, that after the electronics sample the soil, it picks the (3) best frequencies for this soil. ( I don't know ). I do know that I have had many conversations with Eric Foster, and on the subject of Minelabs interpretations of " frequencies " he is not sure what Minelab considers frequencies. So with that being said, it very well may involve harmonics. ( I don't know ). Then we have FBS and FBS2. What I do know is, that for salt water damp sand and in the wash, my CTX is my go to machine. In the water chest deep, although I use them both, my Excalibur probably edges out the CTX. Where and if the Equinox fits in for "me" is yet to be determined. Weight is not a problem for me, so it is hard for me to imagine the Equinox replacing the CTX. How it performs in the water will determine the fate of my Excal's. It is hard for me to imagine replacing my Excalibur's though. All this being said, keep in mind I am a salt water hunter exclusively. I think for in the dirt, this new Equinox ( although there has been much talk about multi frequency and the beach ) will fill the mid range price bracket aimed at competing with the other well known detectors, specifically (2) that are on the market today. If I was them, I would be a little bit nervous right now!
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Here visualize, FBS (Explorers) transmit 2 primary frequency square waves, it looks like this on an oscilloscope _--_--_--___-----___-----_--_--_-- a repeating pattern of high, low, high, low frequency to infinity. Here's how they get to the advertised 28 frequencies...in addition to the 2 transmitted fundamental frequencies there are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th...15th order harmonic frequencies available for each fundamental frequency transmitted. Naturally the 2nd, 3rd, 4th order frequencies grow weaker in strength vs the fundamental transmitted frequencies. Lets say a 6th order harmonic is at 50 kHz better for small targets, possibly also helps with eliminating the soil from the signal, but being a 6th order harmonic and weaker its not going to go as deep or hit targets as small as a machine that's transmitting at a 50 kHz fundamental frequency. Weaker sure, but to a degree its having your cake and eating it too.
Forget frequencies its about INFORMATION - These transmitted frequencies and the harmonics provide information, information about the target, information about the soil. The MAGIC is Minelab's experience at extracting target and soil information from these frequencies, processing through electronics and software to eliminate the soil, ID the target, and present this target information to the detectorist via tones and visual target ID on the screen. Minelab are spooky steely eyed missle men at doing this. So if Minelab have finally moved on from FBS, took what they have learned from FBS and designed a next generation using modern electronic components and revised software the Equinox could be interesting.
What confuses me is the price, $899 vs what $2,500 for their flagship CTX from a business perspective I can't see Minelab obsoletely the CTX like that with a machine that cost 1/3rd the price. My okay what's the catch radar is spinning.
Forget frequencies its about INFORMATION - These transmitted frequencies and the harmonics provide information, information about the target, information about the soil. The MAGIC is Minelab's experience at extracting target and soil information from these frequencies, processing through electronics and software to eliminate the soil, ID the target, and present this target information to the detectorist via tones and visual target ID on the screen. Minelab are spooky steely eyed missle men at doing this. So if Minelab have finally moved on from FBS, took what they have learned from FBS and designed a next generation using modern electronic components and revised software the Equinox could be interesting.
What confuses me is the price, $899 vs what $2,500 for their flagship CTX from a business perspective I can't see Minelab obsoletely the CTX like that with a machine that cost 1/3rd the price. My okay what's the catch radar is spinning.
sgoss66
Well-known member
Charles -- just about the time I say I don't understand, along you come to put things into layman's terms enough that I can understand it!
My question -- is there enough power in a transmitted "6th harmonic" to induce enough "eddy current" in a target, such that the electrical field then induced in the target can be "heard" by the receive coil?
As for the price point and your "what's the catch" radar, I totally agree. Totally. The only answer I've come up with so far is, either the price reflects what the performance will be (mid range), OR ELSE, the amount of competition that has come into the market over the last several years has forced -- through competition/capitalism arguments -- an environment where $2500 flagship machines aren't going to work anymore. Perhaps Minelab is being drug, kicking and screaming, into a reality where in order to maintain market share, they have had to accept a reality that there aren't enough $2500 customers out there, because there are other folks offering high performance, for far less cost. So, you need to draw in the much wider pool of $900 customers -- while giving them high-end performance in this otherwise "mid-level" price range because if you don't include that PERFORMANCE with your attractive price point ,there is lots of competition out there who are doing so...
Steve
My question -- is there enough power in a transmitted "6th harmonic" to induce enough "eddy current" in a target, such that the electrical field then induced in the target can be "heard" by the receive coil?
As for the price point and your "what's the catch" radar, I totally agree. Totally. The only answer I've come up with so far is, either the price reflects what the performance will be (mid range), OR ELSE, the amount of competition that has come into the market over the last several years has forced -- through competition/capitalism arguments -- an environment where $2500 flagship machines aren't going to work anymore. Perhaps Minelab is being drug, kicking and screaming, into a reality where in order to maintain market share, they have had to accept a reality that there aren't enough $2500 customers out there, because there are other folks offering high performance, for far less cost. So, you need to draw in the much wider pool of $900 customers -- while giving them high-end performance in this otherwise "mid-level" price range because if you don't include that PERFORMANCE with your attractive price point ,there is lots of competition out there who are doing so...
Steve
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
\"Carolina\" said:
Noise Cancel is about canceling noise, EMI e.g. interference buzzing through the air its not about soil or the best frequencies for the soil or ground balance. Again if you connect an Explorer to an oscilloscope and run a noise cancel cycle you can watch what happens, the _--_--_--___-----___----- transmitted signal shifts ever so slightly in frequency, looking for cleaner space on the frequency band free or more free from local area EMI.
Does this slight frequency shift effect anything other than avoiding interference? Turns out it does, below I tested a Barber dime on all 11 noise channels on an Explorer SE Pro, note how the slight shift in frequency effects the target ID on the exact same coin.
Channel 1 - 03/30
Channel 2 - 03/29
Channel 3 - 03/29
Channel 4 - 04/28
Channel 5 - 04/28
Channel 6 - 04/28 to 29
Channel 7 - 04/28 to 29
Channel 8 - 04/28 to 05/28
Channel 9 - 05/28
Channel 10 - 05/28
Channel 11 - 05/28
For a more extreme example, on another machine I have a choice of running 14.4 kHz, 28.8 kHz, or 54 kHz look how the different frequencies effect the target ID. I tested a Buffalo nickel...
14.4 kHz - target ID was 57
28.8 kHz - target ID was 72
54.0 kHz - target ID was 83
muttandjeeps
New member
I'm hoping the "new economic reality" answer is the right one. I for one may be putting too much trust in ML to do the right thing and deliver on the perceived promises of the limited information so far. All I do know, is that they have done right by me so far, from the XT,ET, and the CTX. Pretty sure I'm going to give it a shot, just my .02.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
sgoss66 said:
Steve I don't think Minelab would waste their time processing harmonic frequencies unless they are providing target and soil information that's useful. The flip side of that is, that's probably why FBS is 28 frequencies and not 104 frequencies right. Looking at this a different way, if you have a harmonic giving you 100 kHz information is there value in processing a harmonic that gives you 95 kHz information and 97 kHz information, doubtful. They may have selected a span of 28 frequencies that cover the full bandwidth needed for detecting.
But what if Minelab has figured out, or modern electronics, batteries have enabled them to transmit 4 fundamental frequencies instead of just 2, providing full strength information at those two additional frequencies plus strengthening the harmonic frequencies at those spots on the band. Pure theory.
If I had to make a guess I think the Equinox is probably partially about frequencies, and a whole lot more about processing SPEED. Look at the timings on a PI machine, you are dealing with very small periods of time during the cycle of transmitting a signal, receiving a signal back, all the while the induced signal in the target is fading fast. Increase the processing speed 400% and it may open up a whole new level of things that can be done during this tiny period of time via electronics and software.
Yes it could be market pressure forcing Minelab to bring a machine like this to market at that price point. I'm still not hearing the Equinox has both conductive and ferrous target information like the Explorer/eTrac/CTX so maybe that's something they are holding back. The Equinox competitors don't seem to be offering that. TBD how the Equinox compares to the flagship machines in the accuracy of its target ID. It probably doesn't have all the GPS type bells and whistles of the CTX which I don't really care about. Doesn't have a color screen. Still it seems confusing, but your explanation makes the most sense just market pressure.
I would have to think that ML has done their homework, and has determined what the magic number is whereby they can sell the most detectors to the most people and still turn a good profit......The technology is probably all figured out......All that's left now is basically wait and see......
" Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear "
" Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear "
Mr. Carolina
Member
Charles, thank you for your thoughtful input. I would remind you though, that soil, contains EMI, at varying strength and varies from area to area. This is why I noise cancel with my coil near or on the ground, not waist high in the air. This is where I hunt. Noise cancel is about EMI & RFI but it exists in the ground as well as the air. As far as the channel or frequencies chosen, I probably should have discussed mineralization as well. Wish you all the luck with your hunts!
Carolina
Carolina
sgoss66
Well-known member
Charles (Upstate NY) said:
Very interesting stuff there, Charles. Thought-provoking.
As for the CO/FE stuff, I fully agree with you...I love having both numbers, and the extra info they provide in terms of understanding what's under the coil. BUT...
Here's a thought. I feel that the FE number is MUCH more useful on the Explorer, than the E-Trac. On the Explorer, how the FE number varies tells you a lot about target type, depth, etc. BUT, look at what they did to the FE number on the E-Trac...they tried to "normalize" everything on the FE side to "12". That number will still "move" some, on a deep target, so there is still some information to glean there, but "normalizing" the FE number to "12" made it less useful, to me. Then, as I have heard, the FE number is even MORE stable, on the CTX. Apparently, "12" is pretty solid on most targets. And I guess, if you think about it, if they PERFECTLY normalized FE to "12," it could be argued then, that the "12" -- i.e. the FE number overall -- is not necessary anymore. If a quarter is ALWAYS a 12-45 or 46, a Merc is ALWAYS a 12-44 or 45, a nickel is ALWAYS a 12-12 or 13, then at some point that "12" is superfluous, and you might as well just say the quarter is a 45 or 46, etc.
I don't necessarily AGREE with this approach, but I guess it is possible that IF they are able to more effectively pull the "contamination" that happens to the FE number on deep targets (due to mineralized ground) OUT of the target ID -- in other words, more perfectly compensate for ground minerals such that they don't contaminate the target ID, then I guess you could theoretically give a pure TARGET ID, without the need for "FE" information, right? Is the Equinox THAT good, that it has made the need for FE information "obsolete" (by effectively dealing with ground mineralization behind the scenes SO WELL, that it doesn't contaminate target ID anymore??)
Steve