"Holes" as the reason for bans

[Tom_in_CA]

There was just a post started about holes, and how they cause bans to be put into place at various locales, parks, schools, etc.. I went to chime in on that thread, but now see that the entire thread must've gotten nixed, for other un-connected reasons. So I will start the subject over, and put what I had to say here:

Guys, something to keep in mind. And as you read this, bear in mind that I am NOT saying holes are a "good thing" or "we shouldn't care" , etc... That is not the point of what I'm about to write. But the part about holes being the cause of place that banned metal detecting, there's something to keep in mind:

For places where there's a true ban on detecting (an actual rule that really said "no metal detectors"), or if it's simply a "policy" where, ... you got a "scram" from a gardener or whomever, yet not an actual rule that said no metal detectors. In both those scenarios, if you were to ask "why?", the answer from the authority will be .... you guessed it .... "Holes". Right? And then we md'rs collectively grumble to ourselves "durned those guys who must've left holes". Right? And start threads such as this. Right?

But think of it: There wasn't necessarily a case of holes that caused that city or person to make a rule, or policy, etc... I believe that the answer of "holes" is .... a lot of the times .... simply the knee-jerk connotation of md'ing, and the "go to" reason for that person to make the rule or policy. Let's be honest with ourselves: what is the image some people have, when seeing a person md'ing ? HOLES of course. So there wasn't always necessarily a case of someone leaving holes. It's often time just the go-to answer from the person justifying the "no" he just invented. Doesn't mean he/they can actually cite such an incident.

And the above scenario can happen if someone goes into city hall asking "can I metal detect?". What is the potential image the desk-bound bureaucrat might conjur up? digging and holes, of course, right? So he says "no, because of holes". Don't be so quick to assume that ... therefore, there must have been someone leaving holes EVEN if they point blank say 'because of holes'.

Again, not saying holes are "good", and not saying it isn't perhaps the true genesis behind some rules.

 

[Elton]

Ok................... So your saying they just don't want us detecting ?? Or they just don't want to be the one giving permission Tom...

Somewhere or sometime I'm betting someone left holes, or holes got uncovered and left a mess.... That person is aware of what happened one way or another..



It's not always a conspiracy against us .Sometimes it's legit.. People who are irresponsible make a mess .... Then we all get banned!!

It's groundskeepers job to keep the grass areas looking nice.... Guess what he thinks. Digging..he thinks holes..and that isn't something he wants... So your right they will say no.....

HOLES are an issue for all of us....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ok................... So your saying they just don't want us detecting ?? ......

I don't understand your question Elton. If someone said "no", then you're right, they "don't want you detecting". (lest why else would they have said "no" ?).

I'm saying that there might not be an actual case in their mind of any holes that they ever saw or heard about. But that still doesn't stop them from citing the reason as being "holes". And why is that? Because the digging and holes issue is often-time the automatic knee-jerk reaction of people when tasked with the mental concept of "metal detecting". When the image comes into their mind (d/t they saw you out there, or someone's in their office asking, etc...) they might say "no, because of holes". And I'm just trying to point out, that it doesn't necessarily mean there was ever a case there of that. It could just be the justification (aka "go-to-reason") for the rule or decision they just decided on.

 

[jim tn]

I hunt an old fairgrounds up in Mn during our summer trip up and have been hunting it for 25 years. Two years ago I was on it swinging away when a fellow drove out on the site in his pickup truck. He told me that I couldn't hunt on it. I replied that I had been hunting it for years and wasn't aware of anything in the town being off limits to metal detecting. He re[lied that he owned the grounds and allowed the town to use it for numerous functions. (He was a farmer) He further stated that he had had a problem with a lady that had been walking her dog out of the grounds and had stumbled over a gopher hole mound of dirt, so I just can't allow someone out here "digging holes." We talked for a while, I showed him several of my dug spots, which weren't holes, and he agreed that my digs weren't holes and allowed me to continue to hunt. And, I will be again in six weeks. So, Tom, I know where you are coming from. HH jim tn

 

[Elton]

Ok..... I agree ..................... I was only asking if you were saying they didn't want us in general detecting... or for a unreasonable thought on their part about holes they said no.. And I wondered if you meant some said no only because they didn't want to be the one giving permission if it was in fact required.. I'm not arguing with you at all ...


You said.......................... "But think of it: There wasn't necessarily a case of holes that caused that city or person to make a rule, or policy, etc..."

Tom you make good points .............. I'm only trying to decide what really causes the issue.. Holes or people who can't make the decision just covering their selves placed in a pinch situation if one of us ask for permission..

If we know the true reason..then I suspect we have a recourse for the NO..... I do know this. Years ago I could go just about any place and detect. Now with hundreds detecting it's getting limited and I suspect holes do have something to do with it...

So it is important we all cover our holes and leave as little a trace as possible.. I know you didn't say anything different than that also.. so we do agree............. If we do not start policing ourselves and others in the hobby..many places will ban us . Something else I hate seeing is a club of say 30 people detecting one park and digging... Boy that certainly gets the attention of everyone around the area while their detecting...

 

[ironsight]

........Something else I hate seeing is a club of say 30 people detecting one park and digging... Boy that certainly gets the attention of everyone around the area while their detecting......

Yep.
If i owned or managed a park and seen a club of 30 people metal detecting and digging, i'd put up one of those NO METAL DETECTING SIGNS myself the next day.

Back to the thread and its intent which i really don't understand. Is the point that metal detectorists dig holes?
This whole ban thing was absolutely no issue back when i started detecting back in the 70s. It was the Wild West of metal detecting, anywhere any time. Although 99% of the parks around here are still detectable, i fear my area too will also go the ban route in the future. There is a ban at one large County Park here and another at a small City Park with a great history. The word is that sloppy detectorists were digging up that small Park.
The only thing deterring the hoards away from the parks here is that they have all been heavily pounded. Newbies leave with a pound of pull tabs and if they're lucky a zinc or two likely never to return and hopefully put their detector on flea bay.

But what has changed since the 70s?.
Holes... people complaining about seeing others digging holes, worse yet park attendants seeing people digging holes and leaving them open or shadily filled. But why now all of a sudden is this trend towards metal detecting bans?
The current increase of detector sales? Even seen a major detector company advertising on a major cable news show. And then there's that Diggers show!

Its primarily a matter of advertising, more detectorists, detector profits and statistics. Out of the distribution curve of all detectorists there will always be a stable percentile of sloppy-no common sense type people. The more people that get into the hobby, the higher the number of that sloppy crowd.

The other possible issue is that people seem to have no tolerance to even trivial things these days. They see a detectorist digging a plug in their favorite park and immediately complain without even verifying whether the plug has been properly dug or not. Which i'll guess is the intent of this thread?
IMO, Its that simple.

Unfortunately, this Country is on its way to a complete ban at ALL City and County public parks as in England and many other Countries.
We already have bans at National and most State Parks.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Unfortunately, this Country is on its way to a complete ban at ALL City and County public parks as in England and many other Countries.... .

I too am of the opinion that 99% of all city and county parks have no such ban. No ban *specific* that is, to actually say "no metal detecting". So then, as long as you're not a nuisance, sticking out like a sore thumb, and drawing attention, then the 99% are ok. They would, at best, fall under some sorts of ancillary verbage about "alteration", "defacement" "collecting" and "harvesting". All of which pre-date md'ing. And so long as you're being neat and discreet, .... well, you get the picture

But when you say the country is on the way to a complete ban at city and county parks, then that brings us back around to the point of my starting this post. While it's easy to blame holes (marks left, not covered, or whatever), yet go back to my OP. As you can see, I'm suggesting that this is not always the case. EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE CITED REASON when you ask them "but why?".

For example, you say:

...There is a ban at one large County Park here and another at a small City Park with a great history. The word is that sloppy detectorists were digging up that small Park.

Ok, here's a case example, where I don't doubt you heard it was "because of holes". And hence it goes out in the rumor mill grapevine and is just taken as fact. But how do we know this wasn't the answer given to someone there who got a "scram" (and was the "go-to" reason from whomever booted the person), or was the reason given/attached when those locations made an official rule. Again, not necessarily because they ever actually saw this, but merely because, afterall, it's the admitted connotation. So when we md'rs hear that word "holes", we say to ourselves: "durned those people who must've left holes". See ?

 

[shadowulf]

In my last discussion with a local groundskeeper, his opinion was that the city counsel didn't see any holes. But they have heard complaints of holes.
I asked, and then showed him what technique I used. His only comment was " keep with the grain and make them as small as possible".

The only "rules" here are no ball-fields, community gardens, or selected scenic areas. But there are those who feel you are doing wrong and call the police.
The police will come out, ask you if you have your permit. If you do, they let you know that someone had complained and would appreciate you being a little more discrete when detecting in that area. No major hassle, as long as you know the rules and are not making a mess.

 

[Goldstrike]

I think Tom_in_CA is just sharing observations/opinions and not posing a question. On that premise, here are just 2 (hopefully condensed) lol!!! opinions/observations on the most debated facet of metal detecting:

1. If City Hall put's a ban on metal detecting whatever the reason, whether it's holes, no holes, perceived holes or they just don't like metal detectorist's!! Unless you have a lot of clout/influence and maybe $'s where you live, best wishes to you on fighting City Hall and their legal department. The 'why did they ban it' is completely irrelevant.

2. If a private property owner put's a ban on metal detecting on their property, you have a chance of changing their mind by example and explanation. I won't go into a long winded explanation of how you can do it. Common sense should give you direction there.
There are many reason's why a property owner put the ban into effect. Risk of stealing farm machinery etc; etc;. I am currently on a 2week vacation in England and farmers are very, very aware of people setting foot on their property with ulterior motive's. Theft of farm and personal property including home's is incredibly prevalent here and they don't have the luxury of shooting the perpetrators as we do in the U.S. with the very prohibitive and archaic gun laws.
We know that most of us here are serious and genuine about our hobby but the property owners don't know that and they usually don't know you personally. Also, there are so many medieval sites here and there are some so called 'metal detectorists' you can also call them by other descriptive and expletive names!!! that are so willing to go night detecting with night vision (I kid you not, I'm being very serious and it is happening) to detect fields that normally would be off limits otherwise i.e. medieval and roman site's. The pay-off's can be big.
Different towns and Cities across the U.S. vary in how they perceive us and the idiot that got busted for detecting a Civil War site 2 or 3 years ago (although realising that was an isolated incident) can cause public sentiment to affect the attitude's of many against our great hobby. There will always be the jerks that are sloppy and careless in their habits including how they do hole digging and trash removal, unfortunately, they are not the ones that subscribe to professional forums like those we subscribe to here with the hope of redeeming their ways!!!.

 

[Neil]

Holes are the biggest problem no matter how you slice it.

Kids play in parks and kids have smaller feet and oops..........don't always look where they are going........its dangerous for them. Yes other things are dangerous also like some playground equipment but holes are what we detectorist do at parks.

Public works people often don't like the parks they work in to be dug into unless you cover up properly. What do you think they are saying at their weekly meetings about it? Sure the one guy you talk with says its cool, but theres 5 others who are complaining that they seed and nourish the grass and someone comes along and digs in it and sometimes destroys it. They often take pride in their work, you cant blame them for their concern.

You can show everyone how much trash you've taken out of the ground but the fact is it was hidden before, folks didn't see it, what they see are the holes and remains of poorly refilled holes.

 

[ironsight]

...There is a ban at one large County Park here and another at a small City Park with a great history. The word is that sloppy detectorists were digging up that small Park.

......Ok, here's a case example, where I don't doubt you heard it was "because of holes". And hence it goes out in the rumor mill grapevine and is just taken as fact. But how do we know this wasn't the answer given to someone there who got a "scram" (and was the "go-to" reason from whomever booted the person), or was the reason given/attached when those locations made an official rule. Again, not necessarily because they ever actually saw this, but merely because, afterall, it's the admitted connotation. So when we md'rs hear that word "holes", we say to ourselves: "durned those people who must've left holes". See ?.......

There's amost always an element of truth to rumors or the grapevine. But you're right, the grapevine can't be taken as fact in a court of law.
But lets look at the circumstantial evidence.
This small park is situated right smack dab in the middle of the neighborhood where prying or should i say spying eyes can monitor with ease. This town was one of the first to get platted in the County somewhere back in the early 1800s and has a great history. Up until the mid 1900s, it was an important business hub for the County.
Also keep in mind my County where this town is located is very sparsely populated with few towns.

This park 'had' to have been a magnet drawing detectorists from all around. I have no doubt there were some great oldies found there before the ban. I also have no doubt past detectorists left bad plugs, open holes and just plain messes. Statistics again... there's always gonna be a certain percentage of 'bad apples' in every bell shaped population curve.

When i drive past that park these days i always see parents enjoying it with their kids. To address your point, yes some might have just unconditionally complained likely because they see strangers digging up the park, concerned about strangers with large digging knives detecting near their kids, just plain annoyed seeing strangers in their tightly knit neighborhood, etc. This is a small town where everybody knows everybody.
Even if past detectorists (strangers) who researched the town and drove miles from parts unknown left perfect plugs, they weren't gonna let kids playing in the park stop them now. As i've said before, kids especially small kids and metal detecting don't go together.

My conclusion from all this circumstantial evidence resulting in the ban is that bad holes did play a large part along with people complaining for reasons other than holes just because they can.

 

[marcomo]

Certainly there are a few morons in our hobby who leave holes or do stupid things like using big shovels in areas where the public may be watching.

But the much higher percentage is newer detectorists who may have good intentions but leave sloppy remains. This hobby is no different than everything else in life, we get better with experience. I can do a flap plug now and almost always leave no trace when I'm done. I can pop a shallow coin cleanly. I know now what happens to grass when you dig a plug during those dry dog days of summer. I can't say that any of these things were the case when I was new to the hobby. And thanks to unreality TV, there are many more new and inexperienced "treasure hunters" than ever before.

I also think we as a hobby get often get blamed for damage that has nothing to do with us. I'm primarily a yard hunter and one of the things I notice a lot is animal holes. I'm on private property where I've gotten permission, so the holes are not from anyone metal detecting. Whether it's from Fido scraping after doing his business, moles, or whatever, I come across a lot of holes and divots in the grass that are not manmade.

 

[Steve O]

It's all a bunch of you know what. People just don't like others finding what they think are free goodies. They don't like others with the 'looser's keepers' mindset except when it's the other way around. Granted, unfilled or poorly filled holes do come into play, but I see some people who can't seem to mind their own damn business. Uppity, look down their noses, types, where the world revolves around and for them and everyone else is beneath them.

I also lean toward the 'if it's not written/posted ' not to go out of my way to "seek" permission, on public land,... knowing already where to stay out of. I'll look on the county website and visit the place and read the rules on the sign way before calling/asking some park bureaucrat.

Around here one has to personally ask State Park managers for permission to detect...each individual park that is. You can't get permission from one state park and think it applies to all.
County parks, we have to pay for a permit. I often get stopped by Rangers looking for the paperwork. I end up chatting with some of them about all kinds of subjects, and (getting in the conversation) letting them know, that I know and use, detecting etiquette. One Ranger I got to know after a while gave me his card. He said if you want to go bass fishing on his boat, to give him a call. He is also a police officer during the weekdays. If he sees me detecting from a distance, he beeps and waves out the window...wish they were all like that.

 

[TC-NM]

All is that I'll say, Thanks for the people for leaving them HOLES!!!

TC-NM

 

[hartage]

So I was at a local park and some park employee told me I couldn't metal detect so I told him this park is owned by the public and I'm the public, you work for me and I'll do whatever I want to in this....... ok so I'm kidding. My real point is this. I feel the pressure of not "damaging" lawns to the point of tending to dig only on woodchips or bare dirt and not on grass.

I wonder if education, turorials, club or group demonstrations on how to properly cut plugs with minimal impact might lessen the number of those damaging and not realizing the grass and our community reputaion as detectorists. The last thing I need is for people to look at me as a criminal just because i have a metal detector in my hands. Kind of feels like being discriminated on because of the color of my skin instead of my behavior. Good thing I can at least put the detector down and move on with my life if it gets bad enough.

 

[shadowulf]

Holes are the biggest problem no matter how you slice it.

Public works people often don't like the parks they work in to be dug into unless you cover up properly. What do you think they are saying at their weekly meetings about it? Sure the one guy you talk with says its cool, but theres 5 others who are complaining that they seed and nourish the grass and someone comes along and digs in it and sometimes destroys it. They often take pride in their work, you cant blame them for their concern.

You can show everyone how much trash you've taken out of the ground but the fact is it was hidden before, folks didn't see it, what they see are the holes and remains of poorly refilled holes.

The fella I talk with is the Grounds Manager for our city parks. And I know he hears a lot, which is why I wanted his opinion/tutoring on what he thinks is acceptable.
My thought was "this is the guy that can shutdown my hobby in a heartbeat. Better find out what he wants done and pass it on"

Generally, popping and slit-cuts are ok for most areas.
Plugging is ok in more remote settings. But try to do as little harm as possible and give the high traffic areas a rest in the hot season.

So far, the parks people have been very helpful and friendly. And I'm trying to keep it that way.