txmetalhead
New member
I've found a old abandoned church that has a marker saying it dates back to 1859. Now my question is ..can u or is it illegal because of the historical marker. Thanx for your help
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historical markers!!!!!
- Thread starter txmetalhead
- Start date
galen smock
New member
so what do you want to know?
abnackimac
New member
You need to check your state and local laws concerning that. Here in WV. it's not allowed.
Your question is incomplete. You do not say who owns the land underneath where the historical marker is placed. Those markers can be placed by a variety of entities, on a variety of places. For example: is the location a federally owned plot of land? State-owned? County owned? City owned? Private owned?
My hunch is that if it is federally owned or state-owned, and if you asked enough bureaucrats on those levels in your state, that you would eventually find someone there to tell you "no". (whether or not anyone would ever have cared or noticed, is another issue
) But if it's county or city owned, restrictions/rules regarding md'ing are very rare. And as such, if it wasn't specifically posted or fenced, I'd hit it (be discreet, of course, I mean use common sense as to when and if to go). If you're still skittish, you can check city or county websites (if city or county owned). If it is silent on the issue (ie.: no prohibitions against metal detecting), then SO BE IT. Just go.
And if it's privately owned, then of course the owner can grant permission for anyone to anything he wants/allows. I've hit spots with historical markers on them, that were planted on the lawns (for instance) of a historical home, that is currently privately owned.
My hunch is that if it is federally owned or state-owned, and if you asked enough bureaucrats on those levels in your state, that you would eventually find someone there to tell you "no". (whether or not anyone would ever have cared or noticed, is another issue
) But if it's county or city owned, restrictions/rules regarding md'ing are very rare. And as such, if it wasn't specifically posted or fenced, I'd hit it (be discreet, of course, I mean use common sense as to when and if to go). If you're still skittish, you can check city or county websites (if city or county owned). If it is silent on the issue (ie.: no prohibitions against metal detecting), then SO BE IT. Just go. And if it's privately owned, then of course the owner can grant permission for anyone to anything he wants/allows. I've hit spots with historical markers on them, that were planted on the lawns (for instance) of a historical home, that is currently privately owned.
txmetalhead
New member
The church is actually located inside a county park, south Texas. Just heard rumors that if a place had a historical marker than it would be off limits..
Well, actually, he would only need to check to see if there's any prohibitions on detecting on county property in that particular county. Rules/laws/codes usually available on county website.
See the difference? To say "check to see if it's legal" seems to imply that permission is needed (ie.: "can I metal detect...?" blah blah). Better to turn it around the other way: If there's no prohibitions (ie.: silent on the issue, no rules prohibiting a given/certain activity), then presto, there's no prohibitions
See the difference? To say "check to see if it's legal" seems to imply that permission is needed (ie.: "can I metal detect...?" blah blah). Better to turn it around the other way: If there's no prohibitions (ie.: silent on the issue, no rules prohibiting a given/certain activity), then presto, there's no prohibitions
mwaynebennett
New member
It would be fun to show up at the Alamo with a metal detector and a shovel just to see what kind of looks I would get from the staff working there.
Mark
Mark
txkickergirl
New member
For the Purpose of laws in Texas, it does not matter who owns the land. If it has a historical marker it is under the protection of the state. I could own an old house, and register it with the state, and have a plaque put on it. Once that is done even though I owned the land and house, it is a protected site and I would be breaking the law to metal detect on it.
Texas also has the antiquies law that pretty much covers everything, even on private property. If it is 100+ years old it is a NO NO to dig or remove it.
So the answer is NO you would be breaking state law if you detected it. Now that being said, if you are talking about the oblate church off of military highway in the RGV, that place has been detected more times than naught, and yes once someone was caught and ran off from there people tend to keep an eye on the place now because they are trying to restore it and it was vandalized a couple of times. However out of the 8+ people I know who have detected it, not one of them found a thing. Just because the others detected it and did not get caught still does not make it legal. Here is what the law says:
Natural Resources Code
191.092 Other Sites, Artifacts, or Articles.
Sites, objects, buildings, artifacts, implements, and locations of historical, archeological, scientific, or educational interest, including those pertaining to prehistoric and historical American Indians or aboriginal campsites, dwellings, and habitation sites, their artifacts and implements of culture, as well as archeological sites of every character that are located in, on, or under the surface of any land belonging to the State of Texas or to any county, city, or political subdivision of the state are state archeological landmarks and are eligible for designation.
191.093 Prerequisites to Taking, Altering, Damaging, Destroying, Salvaging, or Excavating Certain Landmarks.
Landmarks under Section 191.092 of this code are the sole property of the State of Texas and may not be taken, altered, damaged, destroyed, salvaged, or excavated without a contract with or permit from the Antiquities Committee.
191.131 Contract or Permit Requirement.
(a) No person, firm, or corporation may conduct a salvage or recovery operation without first obtaining a contract.
(b) No person, firm or corporation may conduct an operation on any landmark without first obtaining a permit and having the permit in his or its possession at the site of the operation, or conduct the operation in violation of the provisions of the permit.
191.132 Damage or Destruction.
(a) No person may intentionally and knowingly deface American Indian or aboriginal paintings, hieroglyphics, or other marks or carvings on rock or elsewhere that pertain to early American Indian or aboriginal habitation of the country.
(b) A person who is not the owner shall not willfully injure, disfigure, remove, or destroy a historical structure, monument, marker, medallion, or artifact without lawful authority.
191.133 Entry Without Consent.
No person who is not the owner, and does not have the consent of the owner, proprietor, lessee, or person in charge, may enter or attempt to enter on the enclosed land of another and intentionally injure, disfigure, remove, excavate, damage, take, dig into, or destroy any historical structure, monument, marker, medallion, or artifact, or any prehistoric or historic archeological site, American Indian or aboriginal campsite, artifact, burial, ruin, or other archeological remains located in, on, or under any private land within the State of Texas.
191.171 Criminal Penalty.
(a) A person violating any of the provisions of this chapter is guilty of a misdemeanor, and on conviction shall be punished by a fine of not less than $50 and not more than $1,000, by confinement in jail for not more than 30 days, or by both.
(b) Each day of continued violation of any provision of this chapter constitutes a separate offense for which the offender may be punished.
Texas also has the antiquies law that pretty much covers everything, even on private property. If it is 100+ years old it is a NO NO to dig or remove it.
So the answer is NO you would be breaking state law if you detected it. Now that being said, if you are talking about the oblate church off of military highway in the RGV, that place has been detected more times than naught, and yes once someone was caught and ran off from there people tend to keep an eye on the place now because they are trying to restore it and it was vandalized a couple of times. However out of the 8+ people I know who have detected it, not one of them found a thing. Just because the others detected it and did not get caught still does not make it legal. Here is what the law says:
Natural Resources Code
191.092 Other Sites, Artifacts, or Articles.
Sites, objects, buildings, artifacts, implements, and locations of historical, archeological, scientific, or educational interest, including those pertaining to prehistoric and historical American Indians or aboriginal campsites, dwellings, and habitation sites, their artifacts and implements of culture, as well as archeological sites of every character that are located in, on, or under the surface of any land belonging to the State of Texas or to any county, city, or political subdivision of the state are state archeological landmarks and are eligible for designation.
191.093 Prerequisites to Taking, Altering, Damaging, Destroying, Salvaging, or Excavating Certain Landmarks.
Landmarks under Section 191.092 of this code are the sole property of the State of Texas and may not be taken, altered, damaged, destroyed, salvaged, or excavated without a contract with or permit from the Antiquities Committee.
191.131 Contract or Permit Requirement.
(a) No person, firm, or corporation may conduct a salvage or recovery operation without first obtaining a contract.
(b) No person, firm or corporation may conduct an operation on any landmark without first obtaining a permit and having the permit in his or its possession at the site of the operation, or conduct the operation in violation of the provisions of the permit.
191.132 Damage or Destruction.
(a) No person may intentionally and knowingly deface American Indian or aboriginal paintings, hieroglyphics, or other marks or carvings on rock or elsewhere that pertain to early American Indian or aboriginal habitation of the country.
(b) A person who is not the owner shall not willfully injure, disfigure, remove, or destroy a historical structure, monument, marker, medallion, or artifact without lawful authority.
191.133 Entry Without Consent.
No person who is not the owner, and does not have the consent of the owner, proprietor, lessee, or person in charge, may enter or attempt to enter on the enclosed land of another and intentionally injure, disfigure, remove, excavate, damage, take, dig into, or destroy any historical structure, monument, marker, medallion, or artifact, or any prehistoric or historic archeological site, American Indian or aboriginal campsite, artifact, burial, ruin, or other archeological remains located in, on, or under any private land within the State of Texas.
191.171 Criminal Penalty.
(a) A person violating any of the provisions of this chapter is guilty of a misdemeanor, and on conviction shall be punished by a fine of not less than $50 and not more than $1,000, by confinement in jail for not more than 30 days, or by both.
(b) Each day of continued violation of any provision of this chapter constitutes a separate offense for which the offender may be punished.
tx-kickergirl,
A few comments on your post:
You say: "Texas also has the antiquies law that pretty much covers everything, even on private property. If it is 100+ years old it is a NO NO to dig or remove it." Trust me tx-kickergirl, md'rs are routinely finding coins over that age mark in Texas, and it's not a big deal. An IH, or old V-nickel, barbers, seateds, etc... I highly doubt that if someone is angling for mercs and washingtons in a park or school yard, but then finds a 1910 barber dime (101 yrs. old) that he's "broken a law".
Next you cite:
"Natural Resources Code
191.092 Other Sites, Artifacts, or Articles.
Sites, objects, buildings, artifacts, implements, and locations of historical, archeological, scientific, or educational interest, including those pertaining to prehistoric and historical American Indians or aboriginal campsites, dwellings, and habitation sites, their artifacts and implements of culture, as well as archeological sites of every character that are located in, on, or under the surface of any land belonging to the State of Texas or to any county, city, or political subdivision of the state are state archeological landmarks and are eligible for designation. "
But look very closely at the wording here! You see, you and I would NOT be in violation of this, unless you are at a DESIGNATED "archaeological landmark". And no, the "entire state" of Texas is not an "archaeological landmark". Look closely at the last sentence and you will see: Such sites have to be "designated" to take on this classification. Thus, as long as you are not in a location which is not a historical landmark, presto, you're not in violation of this. Because think of it: using gramatical logic here: if places there are "eligible" for this "designation", then that, by shere logical implication, means they are NOT "historical archaeological landmarks" UNTIL designated as such (because someone wants to put a marker there, or decides it an indian burial site, or whatever such malarkey.
Next: "No person who is not the owner, and does not have the consent of the owner ....." Huh? What does this prove? Of COURSE trespassing and hunting without consent is a no-no. I mean, duh. But notice that as long as you have the owner's say-so, then presto, again, have a ball and go hunting and did 100+ yr. old coins till your heart's content.
I think you are reading these statutes way wrong. Sorry.
A few comments on your post:
You say: "Texas also has the antiquies law that pretty much covers everything, even on private property. If it is 100+ years old it is a NO NO to dig or remove it." Trust me tx-kickergirl, md'rs are routinely finding coins over that age mark in Texas, and it's not a big deal. An IH, or old V-nickel, barbers, seateds, etc... I highly doubt that if someone is angling for mercs and washingtons in a park or school yard, but then finds a 1910 barber dime (101 yrs. old) that he's "broken a law".
Next you cite:
"Natural Resources Code
191.092 Other Sites, Artifacts, or Articles.
Sites, objects, buildings, artifacts, implements, and locations of historical, archeological, scientific, or educational interest, including those pertaining to prehistoric and historical American Indians or aboriginal campsites, dwellings, and habitation sites, their artifacts and implements of culture, as well as archeological sites of every character that are located in, on, or under the surface of any land belonging to the State of Texas or to any county, city, or political subdivision of the state are state archeological landmarks and are eligible for designation. "
But look very closely at the wording here! You see, you and I would NOT be in violation of this, unless you are at a DESIGNATED "archaeological landmark". And no, the "entire state" of Texas is not an "archaeological landmark". Look closely at the last sentence and you will see: Such sites have to be "designated" to take on this classification. Thus, as long as you are not in a location which is not a historical landmark, presto, you're not in violation of this. Because think of it: using gramatical logic here: if places there are "eligible" for this "designation", then that, by shere logical implication, means they are NOT "historical archaeological landmarks" UNTIL designated as such (because someone wants to put a marker there, or decides it an indian burial site, or whatever such malarkey.
Next: "No person who is not the owner, and does not have the consent of the owner ....." Huh? What does this prove? Of COURSE trespassing and hunting without consent is a no-no. I mean, duh. But notice that as long as you have the owner's say-so, then presto, again, have a ball and go hunting and did 100+ yr. old coins till your heart's content.
I think you are reading these statutes way wrong. Sorry.
mwaynebennett
New member
I thank God I don't live in Texas,
Mark
Mark
salmonriverhotrock
New member
When looking through things such as the Antiquities Act and all the Historical Preservation Acts and crap is, there are no Federal Metal Detector Laws and these Acts are what are inappropriately being used by Law Enforcement to convict people metal detecting on government lands. There is a distinction between Metal Detecting and lets call it Relic Hunting. I have yet to find one Metal Detecting Law in the US Code. These Federal, State, and Local Acts however, seem to be pretty much the same State to State and are the "Got Ya" as soon as you dig and or disturb any protected object or artifact on or below the surface. By everything I've read about this stuff, I could swing a metal detector all day long over a protected historical site, a potential archaeological site, or on government lands as long as none were Posted or marked No Trespassing/No Entry and I did absolutely NO digging or disturbing or damaging things on or below the surface. The Federals however take it further on their own to say just the act of metal detecting is against the Law when in fact and in short, it is the digging and or removing the antiquity or causing the loss of the historical value attached to the item or place that is against the Law, not the presence of the machine or swinging it.
I know of a guy here in the canyon that not too long ago was ticketed by a BLM Ranger who is your typical Federal Government Idiot. Why he is still around is beyond me for all the people he has pee'ed off and screwed with. This guy was detecting a river beach like many of us do around here and picked up some lead fishing weights and such and then found a lead bullet. This Federal BLM Freak stopped him and decided he thought the bullet was from the Indian Wars and hit him with an accusation of violating the Antiquities Act and wrote him a ticket and notice to appear in Court. This guy ended up in Federal Court and was so very fortunate because the head BLM Archaeologist took one look at the bullet and told the Judge this whole thing was a bunch of crap and let him go. On top of it, I understand this idiot BLM Ranger will not be allowed to issue anymore tickets like that in the future unless the location is Signed. If this guy was metal detecting a river beach here as I have, below high water on a navigable stream belongs to the Idaho Department of Lands and not the BLM. This Federal however goes as far to check fisherman for fishing Permits and Licenses which are a State issue.
I'm no Lawyer or anything like that and the above is only my finding but I think if you look into these Acts and such, you will find about the same, it is not so much the Detecting itself as it is the digging, disturbing, or removal of the various described items from defined and qualifying sites.
I don't imagine very many Detector salesmen tell the buyers about this stuff but it is out there and it is important to know as much as possible about it. We were not as free to metal detect and dig the open and free Old West as those 1970's treasure and metal detecting magazine advertisements led us to believe. If the truth was known, most of us, even the top Names of Metal Detecting, were simply never caught as these Acts were just not known about and a priority with Law Enforcement except at places like Yellowstone National Park or the famous battle fields of the Civil War. Now that government is bigger, the more area they can cover, the more they can watch you, and I don't think the old timers of metal detecting government lands would have been as successful today as they were back then.
mwaynebennett
New member
You sound like a terrorist to me. Off to Gitmo with you, never to be seen again.
Mark
Mark
abnackimac
New member
A-Men brother.
mwaynebennett
New member
That is right. The constitution is now null and void. You will worship your leaders and obey them. Step out of line and presto, you vanish, thanks to the NDAA passed recently.
Mark
Mark