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Here's a true story to shed light on the "do you dig zinc" question

Tom_in_CA

Active member
Here's more food-for-thought on the subject of whether and when to dig zinc signals. This only has to do with turf, and wouldn't apply to things like relicky sites, beaches, etc....

There was a particular fellow I corresponded with over email and forum posts, on a md'ing forum for our area. He didn't have many old coins in his collection, but was and is well-known in detecting circles in our area. One day, this particular fellow and I decided to meet up at a particular park (which has been worked hard since the 1970s, and given up thousands of silver coins over the years). We were meeting up to compare some new machine that had come out recently, which this fellow had his hands on. We wanted to compare signals, machines, etc... over suspected targets.

The day came, and we met at this park. I noticed that the fellow was digging clad, zinc, tabs, etc.... I, on the other hand, was only angling for deepies (and high conductor deepies at that!). So the friendly debate came up betweenst us. He couldn't understand why I would be rejecting things like zinc pennies for instance. In HIS mind, they "might be a large gold ring", or "it might be an old coin that happened to be a shallow fluke" or "it might be a gold coin with an odd VDI", and so forth. And thus he figured that cherry-picking was a big-no-no. Afterall, you "might miss a ring", or "you might miss a shallow oldie", or "afterall, the clad adds up over time, so why pass good money?" and so forth. And in this person's mindset, they would be having the "best of both worlds". Eg.: BOTH the new AND the old, AND the jewelry, and so forth.

Well by the end of the hunt, I had 6 or 8 oldies verses his 1 or 2. Oh sure, perhaps he could get a gold ring that I'd have passed. Sure, anything's possible. But if old coins are your goal, then you have to eventually ask yourself: Which do you want? I mean, if JEWELRY is your goal, then what the h*ck are you doing hunting junky turf, to begin with? Why not just go to the beach, instead of trying to be a hero and strip-mining the turf?

And the reason why this "dig all" mindset ends up with less oldies by the end of the day (restricting the conversation to park turf) has multiple reasons:

1) The person will undoubtedly be dropping down to dig 10x the number of targets (because there's no shortage of "beeps" in an inner-city urban park turf, afterall). And as we all know, the vast majority of them are going to be clad, foil, tabs, etc... right? Sure, maybe the 10th signal is an oldie, or the 100th signal a gold ring. But ..... you just spent a valuable portion of your time digging the clad and surface junk. Sure maybe each retrieval took only a few minutes, but ........ do the math on 50 targets, and you begin to see that you're spending a large portion of your available swing-time, digging non-old-coins. Contrast to the person who was going only for deep coin signals, and refusing to dig anything less than 6" deep 'coin' signal, and .... his time is honed to *just* the particular type of signals that *tends* to more-often-be an old coin.

2) The person who is in "dig-all" mindset in the turf, will also subconsciously end up not hearing the deeper targets. He *thinks* he'll dig BOTH the deepies AND the shallows, but it never works out like that in the end. Because when you are digging all, you're mind becomes subconsciously tuned to the loud bongs. You will find yourself going from "loud bong" to "loud bong", and become DE-tuned (in your subconscious hearing) to hear the faint whispers. It's a mind trick that we're all at risk of.

For example: If you've ever been to a relicky site that's brimming with easy targets (a virgin stage stop for instance), you will notice that ...... after a few months of working such a site, as you scan and re-scan the same ground looking for more, that over-time, you will start to get the smaller and whispier targets. Ie.: the "4-star" easy signals are now gone, so as you go back through, only now do you start to find more of the smaller targets (pencil eraser top things, .22 shells, and so forth). This is true EVEN when you never were in a cherry-picking mode on those first trips. What is subconsciously happening, is that since targets were easy and fast those first few times, you would subconsciously gravitate to the easier obvious targets. Thus the same thing is a play in deep-turf hunting: If you are digging all the shallow loud clad, then no matter how hard you try, you will, after awhile, become attuned to *JUST* the shallow loud clad, and start missing the deepies.
 
Those are true observations there Tom.... Look past the clad. Walk behind your buddy's clad clean up and maybe some maskers will be removed. When he turns around, go in a different direction :twodetecting:
 
Thank you !!!
 
I'm fairly new at this. I have a Bounty Hunter Quick Silver. I've been setting it at it's shallowest setting and "x"ing out iron. My thought was to develop my skill in pin pointing, which I believe I have been successful with. I've gotten to where I can usually get away with a 2-3 inch diameter hole. My trash to clad ratio has been pretty good with over 50% clad.
Maybe it's time to move to the next level?
 
I would agree 100% as I have observed this within myself! The reason no place is ever hunted out bears testimony to this. Theres so little time to hunt in optimal conditions at a given place in a year. I would say there are maybe 10 really perfect weather and soil moisture perfect days of hunting per year at some spots, and if a capable person with the right gear cant be there on those days, the stuff is going to be there until somebody eventually gets a coil over it, hears the tone, and has enough energy left to go after it. We do see a lot of people get frustrated with their equipment or lack of old silvers, and give up on the sport, when they could be daily satisfied with the many solid tones of shallow finds, and a few shallow missed silvers along the way? I don't know, I think its a matter of hunting styles and preference..one could have written the exact same post you did Tom, only backwards, from your friends point of view, equally supported the reasoning behind going after the solid shallow signals...of course not for intended deep older coins, but just from the standpoint it is a productive and gratifying way to hunt a park and have fun...
Mud
 
It all depends on what you are after really. As you said, you were obviously after deeper, older coins so you went in with that mindset. This probably means, depending on your unit, that you only listened for whisper high tones or cranked up discrimination to weed out trash signals while listening for good whisper signals that made it through. He was probably digging more targets to get an idea of what his machine was picking up and where it lied on the discrimination scale, but his statement indicates he was more of a dig it all type hunter as you also stated. It seems to me he was was after a different type of treasure than you were and tailored his hunting style accordingly. If you had been after jewelry as well then yes, I can bet you would have also dug shallow targets, had your fair share of trash targets, dug zinc signals and subsequently, ended up with fewer "oldies" to show for the time spent and a bag full of trash.

Again, all depends on your hunting style and what you are targeting. Yes, he had very few goodies to show for his efforts but would you feel differently had he turned up some gold jewelry or indians? I'm sure you would, but to each their own depending on what you want and the level of trash targets you are willing to deal with. I'm not missing the point you made about tuning yourself to shallow targets while subconsciencly ignoring the deep whispers; its good food for thought, thanks. I'm a land and water hunter myself and find that in trashy turf while trying to go after everything in the hopes of gold jewelry that I often become frustrated by the sheer amoutn of trash targets that I am finding and the constant digging. I either put up with it or I get tired of it and start crusing for coin signals. In the water, much less trash (although some places feel like underwater trashy parks) and much more chances of that gold jewelry as well as much less frustration. When it really gets to be a scorcher here in the next few months, I will find myself hunting land much less than now and if I do, I will be much more selective of what I choose to go after, so much more coin shooting because of the heat and hard dry ground. I will mostly be in the water where I can open up the discrimination, stay cool and hopefully bring home some jewelry.
 
Habanero, you say:

" It seems to me he was was after a different type of treasure than you were...."

No, actually, that wasn't the case. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but we were comparing machines, and "oldies" was the objective. Well, not othat any of us would have "purposefully passed" a gold ring or a shallow IH mind you! (if we "knew it was there, I mean, duh, no one "purposefully" walks away from gold rings afterall). Anyhow, the idea was, that the particular portion of the park we were in, was known to have given up thousands of silvers over the past 30 yrs., and that the older coins were deeper (it was "stratified" turf, where depth and age is correlated.) And we went with the idea of seeing if a certain new machine could eak out any more oldies from thiw worked out zone. Well, at least that was supposed "stated" goals, before we met up. But once there, he figured, as I say, that he could not only get deep whispers (by which to cross-compare machines), but also spank the Explorer, etc... by showing this his machine not only goes deep, but is also good-for-gold, etc... In any case, perhaps we'd have done better to have SPELLED OUT clearly the goals, so that ....... sure ...... he becomes aware that I don't care about shallow modern gold rings, or nickels, or shallow IH's, etc... But then in his mind, if anyone said something like that (as a stated goal for park hunting), then ....... as I say .... he'd have bristled at the thought of how "foolish" that is. Afterall, sometimes an old coin is shallow, or afterall, it might be a gold ring, and so forth.

Anyhow, the point of whether the goals were "understood" or not, is besides the point. The point is, that it can be clearly seen, that if a person starts stripmining clad and zinc from the turf, while the next guy hones his efforts on *just* the oldies, guess who'll have more oldies by the end of the day?

Next you ask:

" but would you feel differently had he turned up some gold jewelry or indians? "

Good question! The answer is no, I would not have felt differently. You'll notice in my OP that I even point out, that it's entirely possible, that a person strip-mining turf will-indeed eventually find a gold ring that the cherry-picker misses.
 
I think my point was worded incorrectly to begin with, my apologies. You both had the same objective, "oldies" but you have differing hunting styles it seems if that makes sense? I go out with the same objectives each time I hit a park; that being jewelry and coins. Unfortunately, there are not plentiful sites to hunt that could possibly hold older coins so I settle for clad and that's ok, we can't all live around sites that had colonial activity or were not simply built over time and again. Now, I change tactics during a hunt based on my site and what I am finding. Example, hit one of our oldest parks today hoping for the two objectives I just mentioned. Started in the volleyball court and dug all above iron as it's easy digging and not loaded with trash. Was rewarded with a 3g 14k Eagle pendant (yay!). I moved on after that, still running minimum discrimination; I will note, I do keep an ear for those high tones, deep or shallow but it's not so much the depth at this site as it is the masking. I quickly found myself becoming wore down stopping to dig every couple of feet to be rewarded by pull tabs and ring pull tabs in the hopes something gold would turn up, so I changed my strategy up and began notching out some of these signals. This really puts a damper on one of my objectives, the gold jewelry part as I was effectively notching out where a lot of it fell turning me into more of a coin shooter for the duration. I still dug a lot of trash as I just could not seem to keep checking some of the targets that came in good, solid and without very jumpy VDI readings.

Now, your point makes a lot of sense given my example. It was ok to be a hero and dig it all in the sand volleyball court while the digging was super easy and there was little trash. It did not, however, pay off anywhere else as I spent so much time digging trash that I could have been after coins and possibly "oldies" and had a lot more to show for it. I still dug zinc pennies too though; I can't say why I do it but if the condition is ok, it still spends and that seems to go along with the mindset of your hunting partner as well. Question is, what I becoming attuned to only the shallow signals during my hunt? Very possibly so as my deepest recovery was a 5" wheat cent (my one oldie) with nothing to show beyond that depth. Are there deeper targets, both good and bad? Possibly, but was it b/c my machine just does not do well at this location and depth suffers, was I tuning out deeper signals or was the masking so bad that I was only hearing the shallow trash? Lots of variables here but your post has got me really wondering now if it was me and not the machine or the site. I think that next time I go to the same site I will set up and put my mindset more akin to yours, go after the deeper coin signals and see what that does for me while ignoring the shallow "hey I might be a gold ring !" signals to see what my results are.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Here's more food-for-thought on the subject of whether and when to dig zinc signals. This only has to do with turf, and wouldn't apply to things like relicky sites, beaches, etc....

There was a particular fellow I corresponded with over email and forum posts, on a md'ing forum for our area. He didn't have many old coins in his collection, but was and is well-known in detecting circles in our area. One day, this particular fellow and I decided to meet up at a particular park (which has been worked hard since the 1970s, and given up thousands of silver coins over the years). We were meeting up to compare some new machine that had come out recently, which this fellow had his hands on. We wanted to compare signals, machines, etc... over suspected targets.

The day came, and we met at this park. I noticed that the fellow was digging clad, zinc, tabs, etc.... I, on the other hand, was only angling for deepies (and high conductor deepies at that!). So the friendly debate came up betweenst us. He couldn't understand why I would be rejecting things like zinc pennies for instance. In HIS mind, they "might be a large gold ring", or "it might be an old coin that happened to be a shallow fluke" or "it might be a gold coin with an odd VDI", and so forth. And thus he figured that cherry-picking was a big-no-no. Afterall, you "might miss a ring", or "you might miss a shallow oldie", or "afterall, the clad adds up over time, so why pass good money?" and so forth. And in this person's mindset, they would be having the "best of both worlds". Eg.: BOTH the new AND the old, AND the jewelry, and so forth.

Well by the end of the hunt, I had 6 or 8 oldies verses his 1 or 2. Oh sure, perhaps he could get a gold ring that I'd have passed. Sure, anything's possible. But if old coins are your goal, then you have to eventually ask yourself: Which do you want? I mean, if JEWELRY is your goal, then what the h*ck are you doing hunting junky turf, to begin with? Why not just go to the beach, instead of trying to be a hero and strip-mining the turf?

And the reason why this "dig all" mindset ends up with less oldies by the end of the day (restricting the conversation to park turf) has multiple reasons:

1) The person will undoubtedly be dropping down to dig 10x the number of targets (because there's no shortage of "beeps" in an inner-city urban park turf, afterall). And as we all know, the vast majority of them are going to be clad, foil, tabs, etc... right? Sure, maybe the 10th signal is an oldie, or the 100th signal a gold ring. But ..... you just spent a valuable portion of your time digging the clad and surface junk. Sure maybe each retrieval took only a few minutes, but ........ do the math on 50 targets, and you begin to see that you're spending a large portion of your available swing-time, digging non-old-coins. Contrast to the person who was going only for deep coin signals, and refusing to dig anything less than 6" deep 'coin' signal, and .... his time is honed to *just* the particular type of signals that *tends* to more-often-be an old coin.

2) The person who is in "dig-all" mindset in the turf, will also subconsciously end up not hearing the deeper targets. He *thinks* he'll dig BOTH the deepies AND the shallows, but it never works out like that in the end. Because when you are digging all, you're mind becomes subconsciously tuned to the loud bongs. You will find yourself going from "loud bong" to "loud bong", and become DE-tuned (in your subconscious hearing) to hear the faint whispers. It's a mind trick that we're all at risk of.

For example: If you've ever been to a relicky site that's brimming with easy targets (a virgin stage stop for instance), you will notice that ...... after a few months of working such a site, as you scan and re-scan the same ground looking for more, that over-time, you will start to get the smaller and whispier targets. Ie.: the "4-star" easy signals are now gone, so as you go back through, only now do you start to find more of the smaller targets (pencil eraser top things, .22 shells, and so forth). This is true EVEN when you never were in a cherry-picking mode on those first trips. What is subconsciously happening, is that since targets were easy and fast those first few times, you would subconsciously gravitate to the easier obvious targets. Thus the same thing is a play in deep-turf hunting: If you are digging all the shallow loud clad, then no matter how hard you try, you will, after awhile, become attuned to *JUST* the shallow loud clad, and start missing the deepies.

Tom, I agree 100% and came to similiar conclusions re parks and schools some time ago. What I typically do now is to cherrypick new ground and if it pans out I will return later over the same ground as wide open as I can stand. And as long as a hunt produces good stuff, I will return again and again until that ground quits giving me treasures. I have one spot that I have hunted 5 times and scored silver or goldfilled on every hunt. Of course, that might also say that I'm pretty incompetent as a metal detectorist....:crazy:
 
Enjoyed this post very much but i think what it all boils down to is "How you want to hunt" Everyone has different techniques and different objectives on what they want to find,I have and will always be the type to "Dig it all' within reason of course.
 
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