Help on some items from the same location

[BlackX]

[Posted this in the Relic's forum but didn't get many comments other than on the large bullet (one saying Whitworth, another Enfield but I haven't been able to confirm either in the places I've searched), which is about .69 x 1.76 (the edges around the rear cavity are broken), so I'm trying here.]

Can anyone ID the items w/ the question marks? (Never mind the small bullet.)

They were all found in the same general vicinity. I'd give more specifics but it's the only place I'm finding this kind of stuff (as well as a 17?7 half-reale, 18?7 half-cent, and a CW-era staff button) and I hesitate to mention it web-wide. The pipe, half-cent, 3-ringer, filter-kind of cup, and chain/rings were found where officers quarters were until the late 1800's(?).

The button reads "Hollander * Boston *" on the front. There is lettering on the back that I can't quite make out but I think one of the words ends in "RTS". (Through some googling, I found that there was an LP Hollander who made at least women's clothes.)

I just looked at the item in the bottom-left corner and realized it has a piece of what is likely dried leather in it that doesn't seem to have any seams, so my supposition is likely wrong. On the back side, the metal wraps around about 5/8" an inch on each side.

 

[Steve(Can)]

Nice finds, BlackX, a dandy spot, I'd like to see some scans of the coins you found!

Possibly the screen and "drain" are parts of a kerosine lamp.
This is a flame spreader from an Aladdin lamp:
[attachment 80760 aladdin.jpg]

Nice clay pipe!

I've dug those 4 holed buttons as well... civilian as far as I can make out.

The .69 bullet... from looking at it, I'd guess it's a .577 Enfield long. If you carefully remove the dirt from the base, there may still be intact the boxwood or clay plug that was inserted to expand the bullet on firing. If that is gone, inside if you look closely you may see a number, 7, 9 maybe a letter "L"

Nice finds! Thanks for posting.

PS I kinda think the chain looks too modern to fit with the rest of the stuff there. Just my take though.

 

[BlackX]

Thanks for the thought on the lamp part. I sure had no idea what is was from. Just that it was originally cup shaped. It was found pretty close to the other piece but not close enough that I connected the two.


On large bullet, was there a .69 caliber Enfield that was still called .577?
There was a lot of military development at this site so if it doesn't fit something standard, it may have been an experimental round, although I'm not sure if bullets were one of the things that were developed there.

 

[Steve(Can)]

n/t

 

[BlackX]

All the Tower .69s I can find are much shorter.

Just to make sure, I went back and remeasured it in case I'd read the (poor-quality) calipers wrong and it was a .577. (The proportions for that are closest to anything I've found yet.) But it is indeed .69 caliber. However, I had read the length on the wrong line and it's only a hair over 1.5". But that end is broken and there's no evidence of a cavity and the surface is rough so there's no evidence of any markings visible. I suspect it was test-fired into something fairly soft given the condition of the cavity end and that there is a dent at an agle on the front curve of the bullet (that didn't deform it much).

I looked at some images online to get a sense of normal cavity depth and then guestimated the additional length if there had been a cavity and it's deepest point was the current length of the bullet and measured that with the caliper. That came out a touch over 1.8"

If it helps, I just weighed it and it weighs 57 grams (880 grains) in its current broken-end state.

By the sound of it and from what I've seen online, I'm guessing there were no common .69 caliber no-ring bullets that were about 1.8" long. Is that correct? What would be my next step to ID it? Join one of the bullet forums and ask there?

 

[Steve(Can)]

All the tower I've been able to find are shorter as well.

Rich, I have a box of snider/enfields here---these are British, c. 1875 after they had been converted to breechloaders.

All of mine are shorts, just a hair less than 1". The calibre that I measure is 9/16" or .56 thereabouts. The cavity at the end is approximately 3/8" in diameter and 3/8" deep.

I also have a couple whitworths here, they are 1-1/4" long, and look to be .45 calibre thereabouts. They are also of the smooth type design with the expansion cavity at the end.

Sorry, I know this isn't much help...

[attachment 80800 enfield.jpg]

 

[Steve(Can)]

.69 cal Enfield Tower, long?

Pic from link below:

Rich, maybe the guys at this link can give you a definite answer?


http://www.cwbullet.net/cwbullet-org/bullet-relic-forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1950&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Nice finds! Need any help with that site?

 

[BlackX]

Thanks!

[quote Steve(Can)]Need any help with that site? [/quote]

Sure, it's huge and probably figured out by others (though I've never seen anyone else there. I'm just leery of giving too much away on-line.)

 

[Steve(Can)]

man, it is huge. I've seen a couple places where they talked about .69 cal bullets being anywhere from 1 to 1-1/2 oz. Converted, that would be to 437gr to 656gr.

880 grains is 2 oz.

About elephant guns:
>>Traditionally, these were very large caliber black powder muzzle-loading smoothbores and later became breech-loading firearms with rifling (c.1880). Calibre was measured in bore or gauge such as 10, 8 and 6 or even 4-gauge and projectiles were lead roundballs or short conical slugs. Due to the velocity limitations of blackpowder and lead (usually around 1500 feet per second) the only way to increase penetration was to make a larger gun. The largest bore rifles such as the 4 bore using 2000grain (4.25 ounce) slugs still suffered penetration issues on the toughest target of all, the bone mass for a frontal brainshot on elephant. Thus dangerous game hunting in the 1800s was as much a test of the gunbearer's ability to relay guns to the hunter, and his skill on horseback in some cases to evade charges long enough to reload. It was not until the parallel developments of jacketed projectiles closely followed by smokeless powders in the late 1800s that dangerous game could be taken with 100% certainty.

The Nitro Express line (c.1900), so named because the composition of the early smokeless powders such as axite and cordite is nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin, were the first of the new order of elephant guns. With smaller metal jacketed projectiles ranging from .400 to .620 and velocities around 2000 feet per second they possessed vastly increased trajectory and penetration over their blackpowder forebearers. The safari heyday of the early 1900s records much literature on such calibres as the .577 Nitro Express, .375 H&H Magnum, .416 Rigby, .404 Jeffery, .4000 Caliber Winchester Magnum 06 .470 Nitro Express and many others. These rifles came out in single shot, bolt action, and double rifle configuration and continued to be used up until ivory hunting died off in the mid 20th century. Here they largely switched roles to tools for game wardens and as back-up firearms for professional hunters guiding international hunters.

The American gun market produced several famous dangerous game cartridges around this time, such as the .458 Winchester Magnum, .378 Weatherby Magnum and .460 Weatherby Magnum and many of these were 'wildcatted' (to modify an existing case and rifle to fire a different caliber bullet). The rest of the old Nitro express calibers were to fade almost to obscurity until a recent resurgence in safari hunting came about in the 1970s and 1980s. This prompted a new boom in elephant gun development and calibers such as the .416 Weatherby Magnum and .416 Remington Magnum arrived in factory offerings. The late 1980s and 1990s produced the .700 Nitro Express and the new brass manufacturers allowed even more powerful elephant guns such as the .585 Nyati by Ross Seyfried, .577 Tyrannosaur by Colonel Art Alphin and .585 Gehringer by Karl Gehringer to be made by wildcatters. Hundreds more are listed on the internet's gun forums. The .600 Overkill made by Rob Garnick represents at this moment the greatest power available from a standard hunting action<<<

For size comparison: 16 guage is about .663", 14 ga is .693"; 12 ga is .720"; a 10 ga is .775"

For weight comparison, a modern 12 ga shotgun slug is thereabouts 300 to 400 gr.

 

[BlackX]

Sure is interesting reading about the old elephant guns, isn't it?

What I meant by huge in that context was the site where I found the bullet. But the bullet sure is huge too. I couldn't believe the size of it when I first found it and thought to myself "I'd sure hate to be hit by that thing". Not that I'd want to be hit by any bullet but that's the largest one I've ever seen in person.

I posted over on that cwbullet forum earlier but no response yet.

 

[Steve(Can)]

I thought you were talking about the bullet ...you know Rich, I'm looking at that bullet wondering if it is a bullet... a plumb-bob, a net weight, a counter-balance... is that a remnant of black paint, I see on it? Something about it looks familiar but I can't put my finger on it. When i first looked at it, all I saw was an Enfield bullet, but I dunno.

Please let us know if the fellows over at the civil war bullet site come up with anything. I'd be really interested to hear what they come up with.

thanks for posting your finds, rich. HH and mum's the word!