Leave it set at zero, manual ground balance or auto? Tracking on or off? I've read many different theories on this and have to say I don't understand why you would just leave it at zero or turn tracking off. As I've stated in the past my other detector is a CTX and I always have it in auto so it is constantly adjusting ,I'm having a hard time grasping any other concept.
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Ground balancing
- Thread starter FFX2
- Start date
basstrackerman
Well-known member
I always used tracking with my Xterra 705.. with the equinox I did use tracking at first with great results. Now I use zero. The way I understand it, while in multifrequency the multi IQ automatically filters out the ground minerals as if it's ground balancing automatically. Now if in single frequency you can auto ground balance and if in gold mode use tracking.
dewcon4414
Well-known member
FFX2..... two different animals auto GB and tracking. In auto GB the machine chooses the GB best for where you set it...... but its a FIXED GB.... just like the default or mannual GB..... it doesnt continually update. So..... on a beach where is the best place to do the auto GB before getting in the salt water.... dry sand .... wet sand..... in the water? Thats why i choose to leave it on the dafault and only do an auto GB IF it gets way to noisy. It wont loose nearly the depth as Tracking GB. Tracking is very sensitive and designed to make the machine run smoother..... a good many times at the expense of sensitivity or depth unless you are in HOT ground.
The CTX seems to be more dependent on the CHANNEL chosen..... i believe its also a FIXED GB.... which provides you with information as to what SENSITIVITY the machine recommends based on the how the ground is changing to its fixed GB...... but its not changing that GB. I dont know to many who actually use ENABLE GB (Tracking) on the CTX. My Nox will repeatedly give different noise cancel/freq off sets almost every time i do it. A movement of the coil in anyway seem to change it. It appears the algorithms/channels play a bigger roll..... GB a lessor roll. It seems to be very sensitive to the lower end of the digits..... where as the CTX may move up or down them if you mannually set the channel. ML did a lot of testing i think on this one and a lot of the defaults seems about right.... like leaving GB 0....... threshold 0...... sensitivity for the most part in salt water under 20 or under. Gordon Heritage ...... said in Searcher Mag..... he agreed with the ML manual and should leave the GB at the default 0 ALWAYS.. UNLESS it gets to noisy. ML did a lot of testing in the gold range for beach and raw gold on this machine....... its default settings are probably very close to what you should run with minor changes based on location.
The CTX seems to be more dependent on the CHANNEL chosen..... i believe its also a FIXED GB.... which provides you with information as to what SENSITIVITY the machine recommends based on the how the ground is changing to its fixed GB...... but its not changing that GB. I dont know to many who actually use ENABLE GB (Tracking) on the CTX. My Nox will repeatedly give different noise cancel/freq off sets almost every time i do it. A movement of the coil in anyway seem to change it. It appears the algorithms/channels play a bigger roll..... GB a lessor roll. It seems to be very sensitive to the lower end of the digits..... where as the CTX may move up or down them if you mannually set the channel. ML did a lot of testing i think on this one and a lot of the defaults seems about right.... like leaving GB 0....... threshold 0...... sensitivity for the most part in salt water under 20 or under. Gordon Heritage ...... said in Searcher Mag..... he agreed with the ML manual and should leave the GB at the default 0 ALWAYS.. UNLESS it gets to noisy. ML did a lot of testing in the gold range for beach and raw gold on this machine....... its default settings are probably very close to what you should run with minor changes based on location.
Jason in Enid
Active member
FFX2 said:
You dont understand what the CTX is doing either. It is NOT adjusting GB in normal operations. Minelab multi-freqs DO NOT process ground like any other detector and DO NOT require and change in GB settings like any other. The CTX has 2 GB modes... on and off. Unless you has VERY bad ground, it should be left off. The only thing it does when running is to auto adjust the sensitivity level, not a GB setting.
Run your detector however you want, but you are going to lose performance if you start deciding that you know more than the engineers who created it
dewcon4414
Well-known member
Damn you are tough Jason lol. I was waiting for the IN COMING on this one.
sgoss66
Well-known member
Gents --
I have really, really tried to understand this myself -- and for me it has required reading a lot about detector theory and electronics, areas that are not within my area of education/vocational experience. I started off in Electrical Engineering in college; maybe I should have continued on instead of switching into science...
THAT SAID, I am going to try to briefly say what I believe to be the case, in the simplest terms I can. A detector design engineer may cringe a bit, but this should be close, to the best of my understanding. Hopefully this helps some...
The return signal received by a metal detector can be split into two components, an X and an R. A return signal, of course, always includes BOTH the TARGET signal, and GROUND signal. (Ground signal is usually primarily composed of "X" signal, with not much "R;" also, the ground signal is of course MUCH stronger than the target's "X" and "R" signal). For simplicity, the X part of the signal is generally used to determine ferrous vs. non-ferrous, and the R part of the signal used to determine "conductivity" of the target.
That is overly simplified, but if we just go with that, then let's talk single freq. vs. multi.
On a single frequency unit, you have just one transmit signal, lighting up a target, and then the machine reads the return signal. The return signal includes TARGET X and R, AND-- GROUND X (and a little R). So, to read the target signal and then ID a target, ground signal must be "removed," or "subtracted out" of the return signal. THAT IS WHERE ground balance comes in. The machine determines what needs to be "subtracted out" based on the ground balance value. Using the ground balance number, the machine can subtract the "ground signal X" from the total return signal, such that what's left, theoretically, is entirely "target signal." Then, by examining the remaining "target signal," the machine can determine ferrous vs. non-ferrous properties of the target (from the remaining "X" signal after subtracting out ground X), AND the "conductivity" of the target, from the "R" signal -- in other words, the machine can "ID" the target. This is why, with a single freq. machine, ground balance is so important. You have to remove that ground component of the return signal accurately (which again, is mostly composed of "X" signal), in order to accurately ID the target.
NOW -- Minelab multi-frequency units work differently, in terms of target ID. With multiple transmit frequencies running, the machine thus receives multiple, DIFFERENT return signals emanating from each target. Each return signal is different because each metal reacts differently, electrically, when "lit up" by a different frequency transmit signal. So, for each of the different transmit frequencies, you have a different "read" on the target.
Given that there are now multiple "reads" on each target available, you can now do "target conductivity ID" differently. INSTEAD of having your target ID based on a single receive signal, where you have to subtract out "ground X" signal, hope you do it "accurately," and then ID the target based on the remaining X and R signal, you now have the ability to ID things completely differently.
Since the strength of ground "X" signal is a problem, which can overwhelm the target signal, and since improper ground balance will throw off target ID -- the Minelab approach is to utilize SPECIFICALLY the "R" part signal much more heavily, for target ID. Once the ferrous vs. non-ferrous determination has been made, on a given target, the rest of the "ID" -- i.e. "conductivity" of the target, is derived through a comparison of R signals. Remember, in a single freq. unit, there is only one single R signal available (due to only one transmit frequency), and so no "comparison between different R signals" is possible. Further, on the single freq. unit, this single "R" signal is being "pulled out of" that single return signal -- a signal that is by definition contaminated by ground "X" signal. So, a lot of things have to happen just right for accurate ID on a single freq. unit, and since things are often not "just right," we as users experience issues with target ID on single freq. units, ESPECIALLY on deeper targets.
But, with multiple different "R" signals available when running a multi-frequency unit (due to MULTIPLE transmit frequencies seeing the target simultaneously), the X signal can now be ignored when computing "conductivity" (as opposed to "subtracted out"), and thus a more conductivity ID value is achieved -- again, through comparisons/computations utilizing the multiple R signals available, totally independent of "X".
(To elaborate just a bit on this idea of "multiple R values resulting in more accurate ID" ... remember, each target, depending upon its metal composition, will behave differently depending upon what transmit frequency it gets "lit up" by; a 5 kHz transmit frequency will affect a target differently than a 40 kHz transmit frequency will, for instance, and so if you light up a target with BOTH frequencies, you can exploit the differences in target response to each different frequency, so as to arrive at a much more accurate "read" on the ID of the target -- and all of this occuring WITHOUT the X signal from the ground biasing the target ID process).
SO -- this is why ground balance is not as important in multi-freq vs. single freq. Again -- utilizing multiple transmit frequencies permits identification of targets in a way that "eliminates" ground contamination much more effectively. Rather than a subtraction of ground contamination based on the setting of a ground balance value, ID is instead arrived at moreso by essentially ignoring the part of the return signal that is contaminated by the ground, in favor of using the "uncontaminated" part of the signal (emanating from MULTIPLE transmit frequencies) to thus achieve accurate ID -- even on deep targets.
This -- while convoluted, is over-simplified, and I don't understand it all completely.
So -- here is my guess. FBS uses a FIXED ground balance (again -- this is my guess) to simply to answer the "ferrous vs. non-ferrous" question (i.e. the assigning of the FE number). Then, it uses separately the "compare a bunch of R signals from multiple transmit frequencies" to determine the "conductivity" of the target (the CO number).
On the CTX, things are of course similiar. BUT -- Minelab included the ability to adjust ground balance if necessary -- but we are told to do so only if the soil is REALLY BAD. My guess is, this is so that accurate "ferrous vs. non-ferrous" determination of the target can be maintained when soil gets REALLY bad, which thus allows maintenance of proper assignment of a "good target" to the FE 12 line when hunting in highly mineralized dirt.
Finally, on the Equinox, my guess is that it's very similar. IF running one of the single freq. modes, obviously ground balance IS important (due to all of the above explanation). Otherwise, though, if running Multi in any of the modes, it is much LESS important. BUT, as the ground gets more and more mineralized, benefits are there to be had by setting a proper ground balance, even in Multi mode. My guess is that the WORST effects of improper ground balance, in really bad ground and running Multi, would be exhibited through more "wrap around falsing," and, in a related sense, the loss of ability of your "iron bias" setting to function well -- because it is within the "iron bias" adjustment where the machine is focused specifically on accounting for the ferrous vs. non-ferrous aspects of the target (and thus, I'd assume, using primarily "X" signals in making these determinations).
LONG-winded, I know. Hopefully, this proves somewhat helpful to some.
Steve
I have really, really tried to understand this myself -- and for me it has required reading a lot about detector theory and electronics, areas that are not within my area of education/vocational experience. I started off in Electrical Engineering in college; maybe I should have continued on instead of switching into science...
THAT SAID, I am going to try to briefly say what I believe to be the case, in the simplest terms I can. A detector design engineer may cringe a bit, but this should be close, to the best of my understanding. Hopefully this helps some...
The return signal received by a metal detector can be split into two components, an X and an R. A return signal, of course, always includes BOTH the TARGET signal, and GROUND signal. (Ground signal is usually primarily composed of "X" signal, with not much "R;" also, the ground signal is of course MUCH stronger than the target's "X" and "R" signal). For simplicity, the X part of the signal is generally used to determine ferrous vs. non-ferrous, and the R part of the signal used to determine "conductivity" of the target.
That is overly simplified, but if we just go with that, then let's talk single freq. vs. multi.
On a single frequency unit, you have just one transmit signal, lighting up a target, and then the machine reads the return signal. The return signal includes TARGET X and R, AND-- GROUND X (and a little R). So, to read the target signal and then ID a target, ground signal must be "removed," or "subtracted out" of the return signal. THAT IS WHERE ground balance comes in. The machine determines what needs to be "subtracted out" based on the ground balance value. Using the ground balance number, the machine can subtract the "ground signal X" from the total return signal, such that what's left, theoretically, is entirely "target signal." Then, by examining the remaining "target signal," the machine can determine ferrous vs. non-ferrous properties of the target (from the remaining "X" signal after subtracting out ground X), AND the "conductivity" of the target, from the "R" signal -- in other words, the machine can "ID" the target. This is why, with a single freq. machine, ground balance is so important. You have to remove that ground component of the return signal accurately (which again, is mostly composed of "X" signal), in order to accurately ID the target.
NOW -- Minelab multi-frequency units work differently, in terms of target ID. With multiple transmit frequencies running, the machine thus receives multiple, DIFFERENT return signals emanating from each target. Each return signal is different because each metal reacts differently, electrically, when "lit up" by a different frequency transmit signal. So, for each of the different transmit frequencies, you have a different "read" on the target.
Given that there are now multiple "reads" on each target available, you can now do "target conductivity ID" differently. INSTEAD of having your target ID based on a single receive signal, where you have to subtract out "ground X" signal, hope you do it "accurately," and then ID the target based on the remaining X and R signal, you now have the ability to ID things completely differently.
Since the strength of ground "X" signal is a problem, which can overwhelm the target signal, and since improper ground balance will throw off target ID -- the Minelab approach is to utilize SPECIFICALLY the "R" part signal much more heavily, for target ID. Once the ferrous vs. non-ferrous determination has been made, on a given target, the rest of the "ID" -- i.e. "conductivity" of the target, is derived through a comparison of R signals. Remember, in a single freq. unit, there is only one single R signal available (due to only one transmit frequency), and so no "comparison between different R signals" is possible. Further, on the single freq. unit, this single "R" signal is being "pulled out of" that single return signal -- a signal that is by definition contaminated by ground "X" signal. So, a lot of things have to happen just right for accurate ID on a single freq. unit, and since things are often not "just right," we as users experience issues with target ID on single freq. units, ESPECIALLY on deeper targets.
But, with multiple different "R" signals available when running a multi-frequency unit (due to MULTIPLE transmit frequencies seeing the target simultaneously), the X signal can now be ignored when computing "conductivity" (as opposed to "subtracted out"), and thus a more conductivity ID value is achieved -- again, through comparisons/computations utilizing the multiple R signals available, totally independent of "X".
(To elaborate just a bit on this idea of "multiple R values resulting in more accurate ID" ... remember, each target, depending upon its metal composition, will behave differently depending upon what transmit frequency it gets "lit up" by; a 5 kHz transmit frequency will affect a target differently than a 40 kHz transmit frequency will, for instance, and so if you light up a target with BOTH frequencies, you can exploit the differences in target response to each different frequency, so as to arrive at a much more accurate "read" on the ID of the target -- and all of this occuring WITHOUT the X signal from the ground biasing the target ID process).
SO -- this is why ground balance is not as important in multi-freq vs. single freq. Again -- utilizing multiple transmit frequencies permits identification of targets in a way that "eliminates" ground contamination much more effectively. Rather than a subtraction of ground contamination based on the setting of a ground balance value, ID is instead arrived at moreso by essentially ignoring the part of the return signal that is contaminated by the ground, in favor of using the "uncontaminated" part of the signal (emanating from MULTIPLE transmit frequencies) to thus achieve accurate ID -- even on deep targets.
This -- while convoluted, is over-simplified, and I don't understand it all completely.
So -- here is my guess. FBS uses a FIXED ground balance (again -- this is my guess) to simply to answer the "ferrous vs. non-ferrous" question (i.e. the assigning of the FE number). Then, it uses separately the "compare a bunch of R signals from multiple transmit frequencies" to determine the "conductivity" of the target (the CO number).
On the CTX, things are of course similiar. BUT -- Minelab included the ability to adjust ground balance if necessary -- but we are told to do so only if the soil is REALLY BAD. My guess is, this is so that accurate "ferrous vs. non-ferrous" determination of the target can be maintained when soil gets REALLY bad, which thus allows maintenance of proper assignment of a "good target" to the FE 12 line when hunting in highly mineralized dirt.
Finally, on the Equinox, my guess is that it's very similar. IF running one of the single freq. modes, obviously ground balance IS important (due to all of the above explanation). Otherwise, though, if running Multi in any of the modes, it is much LESS important. BUT, as the ground gets more and more mineralized, benefits are there to be had by setting a proper ground balance, even in Multi mode. My guess is that the WORST effects of improper ground balance, in really bad ground and running Multi, would be exhibited through more "wrap around falsing," and, in a related sense, the loss of ability of your "iron bias" setting to function well -- because it is within the "iron bias" adjustment where the machine is focused specifically on accounting for the ferrous vs. non-ferrous aspects of the target (and thus, I'd assume, using primarily "X" signals in making these determinations).
LONG-winded, I know. Hopefully, this proves somewhat helpful to some.
Steve
filternozzle
Member
Sounds sense and convincing to me. Thanks.
brother steve
Member
Good one Steve. Really makes sense . I think it puts the ground balance question to rest . Thanks!
filternozzle
Member
Again many thanks for posting this information and link Steve.
dewcon4414
Well-known member
Goes...... let me know what you think...... especially pertaining to depth. Tracking was just to aggressive in our sand. That dang button for GB...... how many look at their screen after auto GB? I ask that because .... a last second quick push and you go into tracking without knowing it. You get that small wavy symbol on the screen. It took me by surprise initially.... couldnt figure out what it was. Until someone mentioned they used tracking....... so i looked it up and realized i had accidentally went into tracking a few times out there. That screen....... i have to look at mine every now and them........ ill find tracking on..... or the back light...... and the bluetooth. all of which i prefer not to have on.
Thanks Steve for that Candy site...... ive read that many times over the years. Your head is full of good information.........now we have to get your fingers to simplify it hahaha.
Thanks Steve for that Candy site...... ive read that many times over the years. Your head is full of good information.........now we have to get your fingers to simplify it hahaha.
From my experience with other detectors, auto anything is usually not as effecient as going thru proper steps.... excal for example... Auto sensitivity is much less effect in detecting as adjusting it yourself... The machine always sides on less capable to avoid falsing and other issues....
I dont even like an auto tranny in a car....
It would be tough to test tracking vs manual ground balance.....
just my 2 cents...
I dont even like an auto tranny in a car....
It would be tough to test tracking vs manual ground balance.....
just my 2 cents...
Jackpine Savage
Active member
FFX2 said:
So which has the biggest effect on iron falsing and give the best see-through ability? On the X-T 705 tracking was usually a necessity, if you ran it with tracking off iron see through was greatly compromised. The Fisher CoinStrike was similar, best iron perfomrnace on that one was to use tracking to set the GB and let it see some iron (sweeping back and forth) then lock the setting by turning tracking off.
When I get my Nox my goal will be to see how this animal behaves in iron using these 4 types of settings: 0 default, Auto GB, Tracking GB and track then lock.
The answer to your question is try em all and figure it out for yourself.
Jason in Enid
Active member
FFX2 said:
Go talk to him again, because you didnt understand what he said. I'll re-iterate what I said. The CTX does not do any form of ground balancing or "ground tracking " with GB turned off. The only thing it does is adjust the sensitivity level.
Tony N (Michigan)
Active member
borntofli said:
First I ever heard of an auto transvestite in a car.
When the Explorer XS first came out I got one. It was my first *real* detector. I started out with a Relco so that should tell you something.
All I did was turn the Explorer on and let it do its thing. I was digging ultra deep wheat backs in this small field and swinging the coil like a weed whipper.
I'd get a whisper, like a wooshing sound with no tone ID or numerical ID. All those wooshing sounds were very deep pennies.
So there is something to be said for auto tracking and just letting the detector set itself for the terrain being detected in.
It will be interesting to see how the stock settings of my new Nox works as opposed to tweaking everything.
Tony N (Michigan)
Active member
FFX2 said:
Jason is here to help. I never thought of him as a "know it all." Let's try to all get along. Jason is a good man.