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Good signal - or - only Iron (Please help)
- Thread starter swingnlow
- Start date
what kind of trash targets are you digging. i get a lot of targets i would consider trash but they are probably brass or copper which would make them sound and read good. looking again at your subject heading i guess they're iron and i don't know why some iron reads so good at times.
sgoss66
Well-known member
hey swingnlow --
I know exactly what you are talking about. You are not alone. These drive me nuts. Lowering sensitivity will help -- less iron falsing occurs when you lower sensitivity. Otherwise, some of that is unavoidable. In my experience, no matter what you do, you WILL dig bent, rusty nails that sound like coins. I get frustrated with this too.
I think what you have to do is, ask yourself how many coins you are willing to miss...
What I'm saying is, CAN some of those mostly iron but occasional good tone type targets have something good in the hole? SURE. Are there some tricks to try and figure out which of those "iffy" hits have good targets that are mixed in with iron? Sure. But, AT THE SAME TIME, are most of those iron-sounding but occasional good tone-targets simply iron? YES! Most are iron, as you are observing. So, it may not be a bad approach to "pass on" some of these iffy-type signals (by iffy, I mean some tones iron, some tones good). Yes, you will miss a coin at times doing this -- a coin that was mixed with iron. The only alternative is to dig all "iffy" tones, and end up with lots of nails!
Now, I think you might be thinking "but I'm talking about the ones where I am hearing ALL high tones, in IM, but when I switch to open screen, I see lots of iron ID." That's what you described in your question. But, if this is happening (all good tones in IM, but mostly iron in either open screen or pinpoint mode), then that means that while you were in IM, and hearing some good tones, YOU WERE ALSO GETTING NULLING, right? If you get nothing but good tone, no nulling, then THOSE are the ones that when you pinpoint, you will STILL get a good ID only (like you described), and yes, these usually turn out to be good digs. Remember, pinpoint mode is the same, discrimination-wise, as open screen. Even if you are running IM, when you switch to pinpoint it is like running an open screen. SO -- if you hear a "good tone," and then switch to open screen or pinpoint and you then see iron ID, you MUST have been having some nulls mixed with those good tones you were hearing in IM. That's clue number one that you MAY be dealing with an IRON target, but one that is occasionally falsing. Listening to your nulls will help you -- which is why it's so important to have your threshold volume set high enough that the threshold is audible (I assume this is how you run your threshold; if not, you need to).
Basically, when hunting with IM around 22 or so -- like Bryce does, what I do is I classify each target I hit in four "bins."
Bin "one" is LIKELY A GOOD TARGET (which means it is consistently IDing, no nulls, and the ID and tone are ones that correspond to targets I am seeking).
Bin "two" is LIKELY A BAD NON-FERROUS TARGET (which means it is consistently IDing, no nulls, and the ID and tone are ones that DO NOT correspond to targets I am seeking.)
Bin "three" is LIKELY A FERROUS TARGET (which means it consistently is just a null).
Bin "four" is the hard one. Bin "four" is for targets with some degree of nulling, and also some degree of good ID and good tones (and possibly also with some "less good" tones/ID also mixed in). THESE are the tough ones, and THESE are the ones you are asking about. Some folks would say you should dig ALL targets in bin four (heck, some people say you should dig ALL targets in ALL bins -- which is certainly one good approach; however, I don't do this, and I assume you don't want to either -- otherwise you wouldn't be expressing frustration that some "good" tones end up being iron!) You may choose to dig all "bin four" targets, which I used to do, but it proved to be JUST NAILS for me, basically 100% of the time. This is what you mentioned, also.
So, here's some of what I've done with these "mixed signal" or "bin four"-type targets. First off, if I have a short period of time and just want to cherry-pick, I might skip over most of the "bin four" targets. But, I usually don't do this. Usually, to help when I am at a site where I get alot of these type of hits, I like using a small coil, and going REAL slow. I'm in the process of just learning this myself, so I'm not that far ahead of you, if at all. Anyway, if a nail and a coin are separated by a couple of inches, the small coil helps you resolve BOTH targets, to where you can isolate that the "good tones" are mostly "here," and the iron tones are mostly "here," a couple inches away. The closer the coin and the nail are together though, the tougher it is. Eventually, they are close enough that the iron can "mask" the good target completely.
So far, the only luck I've had in pulling coins from nearby iron is when I could manage, by working the coil in very slow/small/narrow/couple-of-inch sweeps, to "isolate" and "resolve" the fact that there were multiple targets (this is much easier using a small coil). However, on the other hand, any time I hear just "chirps" of a good tone, mixed into a null, and then switch to open screen (or pinpoint) and get mostly iron ID/tones, and when I CANNOT find any "separation in distance" of the good tones from the iron tones, in those cases for me it has always been iron. Obviously, this will not be true 100% of the time, but probably a high percentage of the time it will be.
Another trick is in the nulling. I have learned that if I am sweeping and get just a really brief, split-second null (sort of like a "coin hit" in terms of the duration in time of the null) -- and then sweeping back over it I get a good tone, and then back over it and get that brief null, I will check the depth. If that's a DEEP target, I will dig it. A deep target, in my soil, wants to tend toward an iron ID -- and I know this, so if I get that "brief" null, and work that target awhile, and sometimes get a good chirp, other times a brief null, AND IT'S DEEP, I'll dig it. Nails CAN act this way (especially rusty/bent ones), but if deep, then to me they are worth digging, in my soil. The key is to circle the target slowly, and listen to the combination of nulls and good chirps. If I get "short null, good tone, short null, good tone, good tone, good tone, short null" and if I am getting something consistent (short null or good tone) on most every pass, consistently, as I rotate around the target, I'll dig it. ON THE OTHER HAND -- if I get a good chirp, but it is in the middle of a sustained null, not a "coin-sized" null but a much longer, sustained null, and if by narrowing my sweep and going 360 degrees around the target I can still only coax only an occasional, random chirp through the null, that for me has always been an iron target that is "falsing." My point is, a "brief" null that occasionally sounds good can be a coin, especially if deep. That's my experience. In the mean time, if it's a sustained null, and an occasional chirp, that's usually iron that is simply falsing on occasion.
Here's another trick -- if you get a good, coin-sounding tone, and you circle the target and at the 90-degree point your tone is either highly degraded (lower tone) or a null, and then at the 180-degree point it sounds good again, and then at the 270-degree point it's either degraded (lower tone) or a null -- and then back at 360 degrees it's good again? That is a NAIL.
These are just some things I've learned. Obviously, none of these are foolproof. Are there folks who will get these same kinds of hits that I'm saying will be iron, and yet they will say they've found a good target? SURE. Put a nail next to iron and there are untold numbers of possibilities as to how the machine will report that. However, PERCENTAGES are what I try to play. The other option is to DIG ALL targets, which is obviously what you are trying to avoid, or else you wouldn't have asked the question.
Hope some of this helps.
Steve
I know exactly what you are talking about. You are not alone. These drive me nuts. Lowering sensitivity will help -- less iron falsing occurs when you lower sensitivity. Otherwise, some of that is unavoidable. In my experience, no matter what you do, you WILL dig bent, rusty nails that sound like coins. I get frustrated with this too.
I think what you have to do is, ask yourself how many coins you are willing to miss...
What I'm saying is, CAN some of those mostly iron but occasional good tone type targets have something good in the hole? SURE. Are there some tricks to try and figure out which of those "iffy" hits have good targets that are mixed in with iron? Sure. But, AT THE SAME TIME, are most of those iron-sounding but occasional good tone-targets simply iron? YES! Most are iron, as you are observing. So, it may not be a bad approach to "pass on" some of these iffy-type signals (by iffy, I mean some tones iron, some tones good). Yes, you will miss a coin at times doing this -- a coin that was mixed with iron. The only alternative is to dig all "iffy" tones, and end up with lots of nails!
Now, I think you might be thinking "but I'm talking about the ones where I am hearing ALL high tones, in IM, but when I switch to open screen, I see lots of iron ID." That's what you described in your question. But, if this is happening (all good tones in IM, but mostly iron in either open screen or pinpoint mode), then that means that while you were in IM, and hearing some good tones, YOU WERE ALSO GETTING NULLING, right? If you get nothing but good tone, no nulling, then THOSE are the ones that when you pinpoint, you will STILL get a good ID only (like you described), and yes, these usually turn out to be good digs. Remember, pinpoint mode is the same, discrimination-wise, as open screen. Even if you are running IM, when you switch to pinpoint it is like running an open screen. SO -- if you hear a "good tone," and then switch to open screen or pinpoint and you then see iron ID, you MUST have been having some nulls mixed with those good tones you were hearing in IM. That's clue number one that you MAY be dealing with an IRON target, but one that is occasionally falsing. Listening to your nulls will help you -- which is why it's so important to have your threshold volume set high enough that the threshold is audible (I assume this is how you run your threshold; if not, you need to).
Basically, when hunting with IM around 22 or so -- like Bryce does, what I do is I classify each target I hit in four "bins."
Bin "one" is LIKELY A GOOD TARGET (which means it is consistently IDing, no nulls, and the ID and tone are ones that correspond to targets I am seeking).
Bin "two" is LIKELY A BAD NON-FERROUS TARGET (which means it is consistently IDing, no nulls, and the ID and tone are ones that DO NOT correspond to targets I am seeking.)
Bin "three" is LIKELY A FERROUS TARGET (which means it consistently is just a null).
Bin "four" is the hard one. Bin "four" is for targets with some degree of nulling, and also some degree of good ID and good tones (and possibly also with some "less good" tones/ID also mixed in). THESE are the tough ones, and THESE are the ones you are asking about. Some folks would say you should dig ALL targets in bin four (heck, some people say you should dig ALL targets in ALL bins -- which is certainly one good approach; however, I don't do this, and I assume you don't want to either -- otherwise you wouldn't be expressing frustration that some "good" tones end up being iron!) You may choose to dig all "bin four" targets, which I used to do, but it proved to be JUST NAILS for me, basically 100% of the time. This is what you mentioned, also.
So, here's some of what I've done with these "mixed signal" or "bin four"-type targets. First off, if I have a short period of time and just want to cherry-pick, I might skip over most of the "bin four" targets. But, I usually don't do this. Usually, to help when I am at a site where I get alot of these type of hits, I like using a small coil, and going REAL slow. I'm in the process of just learning this myself, so I'm not that far ahead of you, if at all. Anyway, if a nail and a coin are separated by a couple of inches, the small coil helps you resolve BOTH targets, to where you can isolate that the "good tones" are mostly "here," and the iron tones are mostly "here," a couple inches away. The closer the coin and the nail are together though, the tougher it is. Eventually, they are close enough that the iron can "mask" the good target completely.
So far, the only luck I've had in pulling coins from nearby iron is when I could manage, by working the coil in very slow/small/narrow/couple-of-inch sweeps, to "isolate" and "resolve" the fact that there were multiple targets (this is much easier using a small coil). However, on the other hand, any time I hear just "chirps" of a good tone, mixed into a null, and then switch to open screen (or pinpoint) and get mostly iron ID/tones, and when I CANNOT find any "separation in distance" of the good tones from the iron tones, in those cases for me it has always been iron. Obviously, this will not be true 100% of the time, but probably a high percentage of the time it will be.
Another trick is in the nulling. I have learned that if I am sweeping and get just a really brief, split-second null (sort of like a "coin hit" in terms of the duration in time of the null) -- and then sweeping back over it I get a good tone, and then back over it and get that brief null, I will check the depth. If that's a DEEP target, I will dig it. A deep target, in my soil, wants to tend toward an iron ID -- and I know this, so if I get that "brief" null, and work that target awhile, and sometimes get a good chirp, other times a brief null, AND IT'S DEEP, I'll dig it. Nails CAN act this way (especially rusty/bent ones), but if deep, then to me they are worth digging, in my soil. The key is to circle the target slowly, and listen to the combination of nulls and good chirps. If I get "short null, good tone, short null, good tone, good tone, good tone, short null" and if I am getting something consistent (short null or good tone) on most every pass, consistently, as I rotate around the target, I'll dig it. ON THE OTHER HAND -- if I get a good chirp, but it is in the middle of a sustained null, not a "coin-sized" null but a much longer, sustained null, and if by narrowing my sweep and going 360 degrees around the target I can still only coax only an occasional, random chirp through the null, that for me has always been an iron target that is "falsing." My point is, a "brief" null that occasionally sounds good can be a coin, especially if deep. That's my experience. In the mean time, if it's a sustained null, and an occasional chirp, that's usually iron that is simply falsing on occasion.
Here's another trick -- if you get a good, coin-sounding tone, and you circle the target and at the 90-degree point your tone is either highly degraded (lower tone) or a null, and then at the 180-degree point it sounds good again, and then at the 270-degree point it's either degraded (lower tone) or a null -- and then back at 360 degrees it's good again? That is a NAIL.
These are just some things I've learned. Obviously, none of these are foolproof. Are there folks who will get these same kinds of hits that I'm saying will be iron, and yet they will say they've found a good target? SURE. Put a nail next to iron and there are untold numbers of possibilities as to how the machine will report that. However, PERCENTAGES are what I try to play. The other option is to DIG ALL targets, which is obviously what you are trying to avoid, or else you wouldn't have asked the question.
Hope some of this helps.
Steve
dewcon4414
Well-known member
Dont forget about your depth meter. The SE has pretty good TID on targets less than 7 inches. Like most detectors if the target moves from various directions its likely trash. Im a bit surprised you got a hit from all directions and the smartscreen showed upper right..... but you got iron. To much sensitivity can cause wrap around of bad targets because the more you increase the sensitivity the more soil the detector has to screen and deep targets degrade. Doest sound like a lot of sensitivity but i dont know your area. I can normally run mine in 24 just about anywhere. Just curious have you ever INCREASED your sensitivity when trying to ID the target or even switched to auto? Getting the target out to the tip of the coil is important. Takes awhile to learn this machine.... but once learned its as good as it gets.
Dew
Dew
Big Boys Hobbies
Well-known member
That has tons of good info. If a new guy reads his it might be worth printing out to re read later!
Thanks all good tips. I normally run my sensitivity just below the point it is sluggish at refreshing the screen. The targets I have the most trouble with if I am in (am) while swinging in all four directions I get null-good-null , sometimes I switch to ferous and hear low-high-low in all four. Then when I put it in pinpoint all I get is iron. Like Steve said usually winds up a nail, but always some kind of iron (so far but I don't dig all of these because of time).is there something special to listen for? I am rarely or never able to get good Target below 6-7 inches deep.
I truly believe mastering this part of this great machine will get the goods others are leaving behind. They can't all be bad some of those have to be good hiding in with the iron.
I truly believe mastering this part of this great machine will get the goods others are leaving behind. They can't all be bad some of those have to be good hiding in with the iron.