Garrett Grand Master Hunter CXII - POS!

[Nortonics]

[rant]
Once upon a time, long long ago, I was a newbie detectorist. Had a lot of fun finding silver coins with the cheapest of analog Bounty Hunter detectors - I think it was the Outlaw model if I'm not mistaken. Then one day I figured it was time to upgrade. Did a TON of research, and looked at all the major manufacturer models. Read a lot of Metal Detecting publications too, and as such bought a lot of Garrett books. Good reading, and very entertaining - I had stars in my eyes and was ready to find the really good stuff!

Ended up buying a NEW Garrett Grand Master Hunter CXII. From reviews it sounded to be one of the major "detectors to beat". Microprocessor controlled, adjustable notching, etc., etc. Got out there with it and started to take on the learning curve. Wasn't easy, took a lot of work and understanding to make it seemingly work properly. Yet I had to dig BIG holes, and remove TONS of garbage from the ground - it was a real chore! Being new to these more sophisticated detectors I figured it was the newbie learning curve. Yet I persevered. But for some reason, even after a couple years use things really never seemed to get better - I certainly was not finding the quantity and quality of items others were finding with these expensive microprocessor models of detectors. It got to the point where I could only feel confident in in tone and/or meter readings that I was about to pull either a Quarter or a dime out of the soil, and not much more than 3 to 4 inches deep - EVERY other signal was a true crap-shoot.

Not shortly after that I did what all us good detectorists do - decided to add a new detector to the lineup. Went back to the reviews again and started to re-learn what was good, bad and ugly. Ended up with a new Fisher CZ-5. Got out there with the new detector and started the new learning curve. Started to hit new places with it because all the areas I'd already hit with the Garrett were "hunter out", right? Learned to LOVE the CZ. Man-O-man, this is what I thought it was ALL ABOUT! Got so much deep stuff it was amazing to me - figured I'd stepped up with understanding over time and things just happened naturally. Got the point where I could pinpoint an item as deep as 4" and hit it with my modded screwdriver the first time I plunged it into the soil, I'd say at least 90% of the time. Man was I a newbie back in the early days, still remembering the HUGE holes I'd have to dig with the Garrett in order to just get the item out of the soil and into my hand. Deeper than that with the CZ, I could pull a plug no larger than 5" in diameter and ALWAYS count on the item being somewhere close - either in the tip of the plug, or still in the ground at a greater depth.

Enter the present. Still using that CZ-5, and still works just as good as the day it was new. Now I have a new perdicement - my second wife is a real rock hound and Bottle digging hound, so naturally she has a real hankering to learn to metal detect and find keeper coins. So she starts prodding me to take her along. This is just great I says to myself - what a partner for detecting! So, I have to determine how to move forward. Teach her detecting based on one model in order to get really good at it. Now the hard part. Which one to teach her with - the Garrett or the CZ? Hmmm, I'd rather give her the Garrett, because I know my CZ so well. Yet I'm not so sure this would be a good idea based on my experiences from the past. Okay, it's the CZ she gets, and I'll get the Garrett out again and force myself to really learn it, and learn why I had such difficulty with it in the past.

So, the wife gets out there with the CZ, and I give her some instruction - I dedicate myself to the teaching for some time, not bringing the Garrett along. HOLY COW, this woman picked up on the CZ so fast, and the finds just keep coming and coming! I truly found it amazing how quickly she picked it up, and the immediate success she had with it! I knew it was a great machine and easy to learn, but I swear she's got it "in her blood"!

Okay, so I get the Garrett back out, grab the manual and start giving myself the refresher course. Run some at-home air testing, etc. in order to be sure I'm setting it properly once again.

So, we get "out there" together now - her with the CZ, and me with the Garrett. She's doing great as I expected she would. Me on the other hand start working with the Garrett and in VERY SHORT order start to get this crap feeling like I've been here before. Damn signals are crackly as all get-out, I'm digging BIG HOLES to recover the most mundane targets, and I just can't seem to get rock solid signals of anything except quarters and dimes at 3 to four inches! Needless to say, my day was crap, yet it was offset by her fabulous day - we have a LOT of fun together doing most anything! From competition firearms, to Harley riding (yes, she has her own, and rides it like guys ride 'em), and everything in between. Yes, a slight tom-boy, and sexy as hell to boot. And yes, I AM a damn lucky duck!

Alright, so back to the detectors. I get back home, set the Garrett down, start reading the forums, usage tips, instructions, etc. - because I must be doing something wrong with this Garrett, right? We get out there a few more times together, her with the CZ, me with the Garrett, and ya know what? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has changed! That Garrett continues to be a ROYAL pain in the ass!!! The characteristics have NEVER changed. We went out again this afternoon with the two detectors, and I got so damn discouraged that I damn near wrapped that POS around a tree - seriously!

This really bums me out - that POS has been a POS since day one! Yes, it was purchased brand new - I've been the only owner. And I take care of my stuff. It's never been rained on, and it's never been abused. Damn thing is still in EXCELLENT condition, just one step short of mint.

I don't know if this detector was just a lemon in my case, but I do know it really pisses me off that I spent so much money on it and it has NEVER performed! If I knew back during it's warranty period (long, long ago) what I know about it now, I would have sent it back to the factory so fast it would make heads spin - after all for craps sake, the kids Bounty Hunter I had before that Garrett even performed better!

So, knowing that it's likely that the wife and I are likely to have a long and prosperous detecting career ahead of us I decided to purchase a new detector to replace the Garrett. So what did I get? Another Fisher CZ-5, OF COURSE! Found a truly super clean one for sale here on the web a couple days ago for $440 and am now REALLY ready to enjoy the benefit of us both working side by side with quality products that can be counted on!

So now I have this dilemma. What to do with the Garrett Grand Master Hunter CXII??? I've thought about sending it in to Garrett to have them have a look at it, but I tell ya what - I'm not too confident that they'll do much for/with it. I have this H.S. feeling that I'd get it back with some sort of lame note that says something like "adjusted and bench tested - performs to spec", while being charged some exorbatant fee for that service, and the cost of shipping it around the Country. It would be nice to have it working in a manner that probably should have to begin with as my youngest son at 11 would love to come with us as well, yet I don't know if I could handle getting it back in the same or similar operating condition. Personally I have a horrible taste in my mouth for anything Garrett after that/this experience. $600+ being flushed down the toilet would have been better fun I swear! Sell it on EBay? No way in Hell would I put somebody through the same frustrating experience! Wrap it around a tree for the fun of it? I damn nearly did that this afternoon, but the wife persevered in cooling me down. Yet, I will say this - if I do give it "the wrap". I be certain to make a video of it to share with all...

[/rant]

Okay, I think I'm better now - just had to get that decades long grudge off my back to other whom might have had similar experiences. Any thoughts on this plight, besides my needing a Quaalude or two?

Thanks for listening, and I hope my story was entertaining...

 

[Uncle Willy]

Well you either never quite learned how to use it or you had a faulty machine in which case you should have sent it back to Garrett and they would have repaied it or sent you a new one. Their service is unbeatable anywhere. The CGM is Charles Garrett's favorite machine and probably for good reason. But if you're happy with what you now have then all is well. There are many CMH owners on this forum who never had your problems and are quite happy with their machines.

Bill

 

[Paul(NWO)]

I bought my Garrett GTA 1000 at a garage sale. The signals weren't right so I asked on the internet what to do. I was told to send the coil back to Garrett. I told them up front I had bought the unit at a garage sale. They replaced the coil for free and I only paid for the shipping to Texas without any kind of warranty. If you would have sent it back under the warranty it would have been fixed or replaced for free. If the coil is bad they can replace that for free but if it is anything else now you will have to pay. It may be a quick and economical fix. This time contact Garrett. I don't have the lady's e-mail but maybe one of the others here will give it. Uncle Willy is right. There service is second to none.
HH no matter what you're using.

 

[John-Edmonton]

I had nice average depth in my soil, about the same as my other machines in discriminate mode. In true all metal mode it was deeper. I had more then one coil, and used the large coil in some hunted out areas and still managed to to grab some old ammo and coins from that place. I got out last year with my new one and was pulling older coins out of the woods I regularily hunt. It sounds like the machine you have has some issues. Why didn't you send it in a while back? Garrett has always had great customer service.

The Grand Master Hunter CX II is still available and is a good bargain, considering it has a true all metal mode, discriminate mode and FastTrack, Garrett's exclusive technology that analyzes ground mineralization and adjusts to "cancel" its effects in a matter of seconds.

 

[dino]

l will trade you a garrett 250-got for my grand son -well we went out with the 250 -not hes thing-never sent in the warr card.

 

[Nortonics]

Hey folks - first, an apology. I came back and re-read my previous post after cooling off a while and thought to myself that was pretty brash and immature of me, and likely not deserving of Garrett products. This seems like a really great forum, as most all the MD'ing fourms are out here. Super helpful folks to any and all, and rarely if ever harsh words or feelings. I felt very frustrated with that detector, but it certainly doesn't give me the right to push it out your way. Again, my heartfelt apologies to you all.

The right thing to do is send it in to Garrett as previous folks stated. Sounds like their service is one of those rare things in this day and age, top notch with customer satisfaction as a priority. Thanks for pointing that out to me - seems I've lost a lot of that type of confidence in with the way that shoddy products and customer service dominate industries and manufacturers from toilet plungers to automobiles - everybody wants your buck, and the buck stops there.

I'll get this thing shipped out their way in the short term and let you all know what happens.

Thanks again for your kind responses - I'll go lay by my dish now...

 

[Square Nail]

Hi Tom, Sad to hear of your experience with the CX11. As stated by the others, the detector should probably go in for a calibration. But before you send it in, try taking it out and comparing in ground target signals between the two different detectors. If you have a test garden then that could help as well. Compare signals found between the two machines before they are dug up. Compare between them where certain items are rejected. This won't be apples to apples as they don't have the same exact circuitry, but that will provide a comparison for you. See which can operate at the highest sensitivity/depth setting given the environment you are working in. Compare different sweep speed responses between the two across a un-dug target. For a few tests drop the retrieved target back into the hole and compare the two, make the hole a little deeper, and repeat etc.
After you have bench marked them against each other, send it to the factory. Do the same when it returns, if your still not happy put it up for auction. This should be an enjoyable hobby, and life is too short to live with a detector your not happy with... The Miss's would probably be more than happy to help in the experiments. Good luck

 

[Uncle Willy]

No apology needed. Nothing more aggravating than a detector than won't work like it should. Get it in to Garrett and they'll fix it. In correct working order it's a great machine. Good luck.

Bill

 

[Nortonics]

But before you send it in, try taking it out and comparing in ground target signals between the two different detectors. If you have a test garden then that could help as well. Compare signals found between the two machines before they are dug up. Compare between them where certain items are rejected. This won't be apples to apples as they don't have the same exact circuitry, but that will provide a comparison for you. See which can operate at the highest sensitivity/depth setting given the environment you are working in. Compare different sweep speed responses between the two across a un-dug target. For a few tests drop the retrieved target back into the hole and compare the two, make the hole a little deeper, and repeat etc.
After you have bench marked them against each other, send it to the factory. Do the same when it returns, if your still not happy put it up for auction.

Hey S.N., or others - questions about checking the detector before sending it in to Garrett for a look-see.

Using a methodology described elsewhere in the forum (in the Fisher CZ area) I'm wondering your thoughts about the following. I don't have a test garden planted at the moment, but I wonder your thoughts on the following. In the Fisher CZ area a member described a way that Fisher recommends testing their detectors using air testing. Here's the exact cut & paste quote to begin with:

Take a box turn it over and use the bottom as your top. Measure down from the "top" and make 5,6,7,8,9,10,11" marks. Now take a knife and cut slits at each of those marks parallel with the top of the box. Use a copper penny (pre 1982) and put it in the slots. Pass your coil along the top of the box so that the coin is under the center of it. About half of of your coil will be hanging over the edge of the box. You should be able to hit the coin down to at lest 9" and probably at 10. The factory for the 3D is 9.5 to 10.5". Since the 3D is fashioned from the CZ-5, I imagine these numbers would be the same. Don't do this in your house. Your box should be at least 2 feet from the ground and 10 feet from any metal object. Be careful not to do it around power lines also.

Okay, so I take the CXII out in my back yard using a setup fashioned exactly as above using fresh batteries and the standard 8" coil. First I turn both notching controls to their minimum settings, fully counterclockwise, thus notching nothing. Next I turn on and reset the CXII to factory settings (pressing the "disc" and "all metal" buttons simultaneously) and it does reset properly. I then turn it off, then back on with the coil height at the height of my test box, or about three feet in the air (and away from my test box and target) - upon turning the detector on it automatically goes into all metal mode. I then set it to discriminate mode by pressing the "dics" button. Okay, ready to air test - using a copper penny (1981) I can only get the CXII to respond (audibly and locked meter) to 5" - yes, just 5". At 6" sometimes I can get a chirp out of it without any meter deflection.

Does than seem pretty lame to you guys? Comparing to other folks abilities using a CZ they seem to get between 8" to 11" in air testing. Does my detector setup beforehand seem somewhat proper? Here's a link to the manual if you might want to see Garrett's setup instructions, etc.: http://www.garrett.com/manuals/Grand-Master-Hunter-II.pdf Is there something I should be trying differently as far as setting up the detector beforehand for this type of air testing?

I'd try the above tests with my CZ-5 except I found that the wife left it turned on before putting it in the trunk on our last time out, thus dead batteries, and no new ones around the house at the moment. Yeah, yeah, she needs some more instruction obviously...

Thoughts or suggestions appreciated...

 

[Square Nail]

Preparing a response, this may take some time!

 

[Square Nail]

Hi Nortonics, First off its going to be hard to beat a CZ-5! They have a great reputation and following. The Garrett Master Hunter series is also a great machine line, with lots of versatility - these two are very different machines.

Observation 1 - You stated that when starting up your CXII, it was in the All Metal Mode (AMM) as the default mode - it should start up in the Disc mode. You will want to verify this, as that can be a good item to report to Garrett if, and when you send in the detector. As per the manual it should start up in Disc Mode, my CX Plus does.

Observation 2 - When you do a factory reset of the CXII, your Depth/Sensitivity will be somewhere between 85 and 90%. If your benchmarking depth, crank it all the way up with the touchpads on the side of the CXII. There is a lot of extra punch between the factory preset/reset value and the MAX depth setting. Depth setting for All metal mode and Disc mode are separate on the CXII. Resetting to factory presets will bring both of these setting down off of MAX!

Observation 3

 

[Nortonics]

S.N.,
Thanks much for this excellent detail - not rambling at all! I fully understand everything you've mentioned here. I'll hit on each area you've brought up...

Yes, I agree - these two machines are very different in operation and configuration. Just wanted to get a starting point established for testing the CXII.

Observation 1 answer: An interesting point about the manual link I provided above. I've realized that manual is not the exact manual for my Grand Master Hunter CXII - it's probably close enough (Grand Master Hunter II), but it is not the same as the small pamphlet I've got for my exact detector. For instance, in the linked manual above it states in the [Starter Phase] section "3. After you hear two beeps, you are operating in the Discriminate Mode.". In my manual it states "3. Press the ON touch-pad. After you hear one beep, press the DISC touch-pad to make certain that you are operating in the Discriminate Mode." I believe you are right that it does in fact start in the Discriminate Mode - my error.

Observation 2 answer: Yes, I'm familiar with the fact that a reset brings the sensitivity lower than 100%. Will do with getting it up to 100% in either mode.

Observation 3 answer: It's time to plant a test garden - will do.

I figured air testing would be a fickle thing depending on the detector, and figured the auto GB of the CXII in discriminate mode probably was not helping the issue with air testing. Again, I'll get a garden planted.

Yes, I too like the regular audio response that you do. And yes, I run a threshold just as you describe.

Familiar with the depth settings in both modes. Will do per your suggestions on setting to max and bringing down to threshold detection of a deep target.

In the ground targets - I'll get it accomplished. I agree on the study of masking and analysis being important. I just so happen to be re-reading an excellent book produced by Whites numerous years ago called "Taking a closer look at metal detector discrimination" - truly an excellent text!

It's interesting you mention the excellent behavior of Garret's discrimination circuitry as I believe this may be an area my CXII suffers within. If it were up to me, with this one detector, I'd say just the opposite. I seem to have a difficulty with mine being able to properly discriminate based on its knob settings - just doesn't seem to have predictable functionality of knocking out items based on the knob settings. In addition to this it seems that any foil object (such as an ripped up aluminum can) ALWAYS detects as a pretty solid Nickle, and often pull tabs just don't respond as I would expect as well. This very well could be a internal fine tuning issue I'm thinking/hoping. Will work further with this in the test garden once planted to get a better handle on these findings.

I will take some time with these experiments as you suggest - after all the new to me 2nd CZ-5 just arrived today so we'll be good to go for getting out together with predictable machines.

Thanks so much once again S.N. for your excellent ideas, explanations and details. I'll post again once I've had some time working with it per above. I'm gonna' make this thing work properly if it kills me - we'll maybe not quite that far...

 

[Square Nail]

Hi again, I read your post and processed it over night. Canslaw or ripped Aluminum can chunk age will classify higher than Foil. Canslaw has a much higher density, and thickness than does foil. With a higher metallic density Canslaw will be classified more conductive than foil. Depending on the size of the Canslaw chunk age, it will span below, thru, and above the Nickel conductivity point. I keep a selection of dug trash targets for testing and comparison and I did get Canslaw to ring up around Nickel. I also have several of the older pull tab beaver tails, and they run right around Nickel if bent and folded. I try to keep my Non-Ferrous Disc knob fully CCW, so that I don't miss any gold items. The price paid is, digging more tabs, and Canslaw!

If the Disc knob settings don't seem quite right compared to the face plate/side plate markings you can do a easy calibration. Put a nickel down on a otherwise target free area, scan your loop over the Nickel at 4 to 5" high, and set the Ferrous knob at Threshold rejection. Tweak the Disc knob down ever so slight, loosen the set screw on the Disc knob and reposition the knob so that it aligns with the face plate Nickle mark. Do the same for Zincolns, on the Non-Ferrous knob. My CX Plus doesn't have set screws, the knob can be carefully pulled straight off the potentiometer shaft. OR just test as above and note where they really reject at.

Just a few more thoughts,
Square Nail

 

[Sweeping-4-junk]

They are not depth monsters either the CX 2 or CX 3. They are what i would class as been capable of moderate depth 5 to 6 inches on a buried coin will be the most you get.. generally.. I managed to find a large coin at 8 inches back in 2000 with the CX 3 I have owned both and still own a CX 2. Look for cracking round the bottom of the coil towards outer edge - very common on the crossfire coils..

 

[cherringtonsm]

I have a CXII as well which no longer works and is non repairable. I had very good luck with it and wish it still worked. However, what I learned by sending it in to Garrett is that working or not it is worth 35% on trade in for a new detector through Garrett. This was approximately a year ago and did not apply to the AT Max at the time. Two different Garrett representatives told me about its trade in value. So someday I will make good on that trade in if they are still offering it. Even in non working condition it is potentially my most valuable detector. Currently I use the AT Pro with an Ace 400 as a backup. If that deal is still being offered then there may be a silver lining to your cloud of frustration. I certainly hope you don't give up on Garrett products because of your experience. Good luck in the future !