FYI my opinion why you never find those 1909 pennies

[Ron from Michigan]

Just thought I would pass this information along to help some hunters find those old 1909 wheat's.Three old 1909 wheat's and four IHs I found in Oxford parks a couple seasons ago was tested on the 180 meter.On all three1909 pennies there was a 176-177 bounce. Most people will think these are zinkers or stinken Lincolns and pass these up as junk targets.The four Indian Heads results, two read 176-177 no surprise,one 175-176,and one 174-175.These coins when buried in the ground may even have a little lower reading.When I'm in an old park and the Sovereign is in the zone this unit can separate US pennies better than any detector I've used.HH Ron

 

[Rick(ND)]

There is several wheat pennies that read like the zinc pennies or IH too. I find all the early wheat and a 1941 or 42 reads as the IH and zinc pennies do. What I have always did was dig them all, but if I don't want to I will only dig the deeper 176-177 and some can read as low as 173 if deeper as these will be the older wheat's and the IH pennies. I suppose some are not that deep either and will sound not that deep, but I would say 98% of the shallow 176-177 are the zincs. If not real deep I find 176-177 is the zincs, 177-178 seem to be screw caps, 179-180 seem to be the copper,clad and silver while the 144-145 are the nickles, but a war nickle can be 143-151 I have seen, but they do sound like a nickle. On the deeper targets the 176-177 are the older wheat and IH pennies from my experience and any real deep target that is trying to climb with tones and numbers are always dug as this is where I find the deep coins on the very edge of detection. In order to hear the deep one they are small signals and by going super slow I can hear them, swing a little faster and I get no signal at all.

 

[deepdiger60]

The main reason your going to find diversity in numbers on your meters is the alloys used and the weight,s from 1858 to present like the Fatty,s IH Penny's , Jim

The coins struck between 1859 and 1864 contained 88% copper and 12% nickel. During this time, prior to the issuance of the Five-Cent nickel coin, the cent was commonly referred to as a "Nickel" or "Nick," for short. Due to the hoarding of all coinage during the Civil War, the nickel cents disappeared from daily use and were replaced in many Northern cities by private tokens. The success of these copper tokens prompted the change of the cent to a similar metal. In 1864, the alloy changed to bronze (95% copper and 5% tin and zinc), and the weight of the coins was reduced from 72 grains to 48 grains. This weight continued for copper-alloy U.S. cents until the 1982 introduction of the current copper-plated zinc cent (about 38.6 grains). Flying Eagle cent 1856 1858 also was made from different alloy,s .

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Rick,I have found wheat's as low at 172 with a solid ID lock on.War Nickles in my ground for most 149-151 very steady sound pitch.The half dollar,can confuse me, the Sovereign's and all the 180 meters MLs,Sunrays,Winburns and current I used will actually null down as low as 165-168 and try to climb to a steady180,both on surface,coin garden and ones found in the field.I agree(not so simple) one must look for climbing numbers sort out the tone pitch and other factors.Thanks Ron

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Jim,the Indian heads used were all later years 1907-1890,yea, the fatty will give a much different ID.I did find a 1864 a few years back not a fatty,I think both IHs were produced that year.Thanks Ron

 

[xwyokid]

Coincendentally...The first wheat penny I ever found was a 1909 S. Didn't know what I had until I got home. STUPIDLY I sold it to a coin dealer in Carson City NV. for $40. This still hurts many years later.

 

[Critterhunter]

I was just looking at the chart I put together a while back that I always carry laminated in my digger/Pro Pointer holster. It's a compilation of all other Sovereign charts and my own readings (mine are listed in bold on it).

1859 to 1864 indians (88% copper, 12% nickle, which metal detecting circles call a "fatty" Indian due to them being a bit thicker than normal Indians) read 160 to 164. That's right in the pull tab range. The nickle is pulling them down a bit in conductivity, hence the lower VDI reading.

My own readings of 1864 to 1909 Indians (refered to as bronze, which is 95% copper, 5% tin and zinc) read 173 for me, but the other charts list them from there up to 176.

My readings of 1909 to 1958 wheats read 173.

I also scanned some other Indians and wheats that read 176 and 177, but I didn't note their dates in my chart.

I scanned some wheats and copper memeorials that read 179 to 180, but I didn't note the dates on those either.

Zincs usually read 173 or 176, but a few can read between those two numbers or as high as 177 when I've scanned them. Very rare though. For me when digging them they are either 173 or 176 99% of the time. I've dug a few ate up zincs that drop to as low as about 171 or so.

I love digging those odd numbers between 169 (the highest pull tab reading 99% of the time) and 173 for zincs. 170, 171, and 172 are rare for me to come across at sites and often I've dug some cool relics in that number range. They are so rare anyway to come across that I never pass those up, and I keep expecting to dig a bigger gold ring with a high K value, or a smaller one but with a low K value, that can easily read right up in that number range if not higher.

The Sovereign is blessed in that it's 180 meter has super high resolution from foil all the way up to copper penny. Most machines (and I haven't seen one yet that has this high of resolution of the 180 meter in that range???) can't finely separate high reading tabs from zincs, or especially low reading tabs from nickles, but the Sovereign's real high conductivity resolution (from foil to copper penny) can make these kinds of distinctions.

That's why nickels are almost a sure bet on this machine. Around 143 to 146 with a nice round smooth tone and I'll bet money on it being a nickel. Dug a bunch of older ones at pounded out sites just because other machines can't distinctly ID them from tabs, and also the fact that their "nickel" range bleeds lower into more of the foil range too. That's where the old "dig the nickel zone to find gold rings" thing comes from...machines with a much wider nickel zone that are soaking up a wider range of targets a good bit above and below where a nickel will read that they consider a "nickel" ID.

I've dug 4 or 5 war nickels with my GT that read right around a normal nickel of about 144 to 146, but I know some can read higher for people due to the silver content. I've also dug some old Vs or buffalos as low as about 136 or 139 or so, but they still had that nice smooth round sound and the nickel tone to them. But I've dug Vs/buffalos that also were in pretty bad shape and still rang right in the 144 to 146 range like any modern nickel in good shape.

Far as coins above a copper penny, I've owned machines that could ID coin types (or try to anyway), but I've dug a lot of silver on several different machines that could ID coin types that they said were pennies or the clad versions of a dime or quarter but they turned out to be silver ones, so I don't trust that kind of input on what the machine thinks the coin is above copper penny. The differences in conductivity between copper pennies, clad dimes, clad quarters, silver dimes, and silver quarters is such a fine line that anything could throw the ID off (minerals, depth, being masked, on edge, being worn, etc).

For that reason when old coin hunting I don't care what kind of coin the machine thinks it might be. If the coin is deep or it's shallow but mixed in trash, I'm digging it anyway in the hopes of a silver or some other old coin. I've even dug silver dimes that read as low as zinc pennies on machines for all the reasons listed above. High resolution in the coin range also makes the ID a bit "floaty" for my tastes, causing me to question if the target is really a coin or a piece of junk.

In a sense a wider net catches more fish is the way I look at it. I think that's one of the reasons I dug so many old coins with my QXT Pro before my GT too, because the QXT is like the GT in that it has a separate zone for zincs, but copper penny and above get lumped into the same zone.

 

[bik-il]

Agreed CH.

Some days I just dig everything that has a consistent tone.
(Regardless of which detector I'm using and regardless of what the vdi says)

If you think about it, when you repeatedly hunt the same places over and over we are competing with ourselves too! How many times have we done that and each time out find goodies that we missed each and every previous hunt? I'm encouraged and humored every time that happens.
"How'd all those dummies hunting here before me miss THAT?" Then I realize I've hunted there fifty times and never seen anyone else around with a detector. Hmmm. . . .

Like they say- if you sit down at a poker table and can't spot the sucker, the sucker is you! Lol.

Been there. Done that!

 

[Rick(ND)]

The only wheat's I get that will read as low as 172 would be those that are real deep or next to a trash target. This is why anything deep and I can get even a 170 on I will be digging, those that read lower than 170 and seem like they want to climb also are ones I will dig and another reason I will swing real slow to first hear them, then swing faster over just that small area to amplify the signal if you don't get the first sign of a signal you will have missed that deep target or those close to trash.
What Critter says about most wheat pennies reading 173-176 has got me stumped as I only see the early wheat's, the IH and the zinc reading 176-177 with a few deeper reading a little less but not a lot less and most wheat's and copper memorials reading 179-180 like the clads and silver does. Is anyone that knows their Sovereign and use a 180 meter set for 180 on a clad dime or quarter see this too. All those in my area with the Sovereigns see the same as me and I have seen this in ND,SD and MN and was out in NJ a few years ago and seen the same thing, so just wondering if some areas of the country have something weird going on. I have seen some areas in certain ground conditions a war nickle will read as 176 just like a IH penny or older wheat. I couldn't believe it myself so 2 different guy sent me one they had found and sure enough on my Sun Ray 180 meter they read 176 and sounded like a older wheat or IH penny.
Anyone else getting 173-176 on most all wheat pennies and does your IH read like this too with so many different numbers?? Mine most wheat's read 179-180 and IH and some older wheat read 176-177 with only the real deep ones reading lower numbers or those close to trash.
On nickles I have seen some difference as mine used to read 143-144 like others in my area and the next year they may read 145-146 and the next year 144-145 and wonder if this has something to do with the moisture in the ground. I know up here in ND when real dry our rusty bottle caps will fool us as they also sound like a nickle and read 143-144 and may have a null on the end of the swing.

Rick

 

[Tin Fin]

I found a 1917 wheatie a few months ago that rang up at 175-176; it was in excellent shape and only about 3/8 of an inch deep, if that. This was in a rocky area of the Midwest, close to the Mississippi river, in the flood plain, but 20 feet above the rivers normal stage in mixed deciduous forest. Most wheaties hit higher than that, and lock on solid but sometimes, if there is bounce, I just figured that was my technique. I have found a few nickles from 1943-45, but don't remember the numbers they were. I do remember that they sounded "like nickles" to me when I found them though. This was when I was first learning the GT - still am, and hope to always learn more from it - but I heard the mid tones pretty clear on them, and that is saying something for my hearing.

But, Ron's original post points to something that was made clear to me early on when asking about the GT also - don't rely on just the numbers; it's the sound combined with the numbers that is more informative. The sound gives information, the numbers give info, combining that information while in the field is when I learn the most.

Great post Ron.

 

[Rick(ND)]

You hit it right on as you seen some of the older Wheaties hit 176-177, but most wheat's will hit higher like 179-180. You also see even though you have used the Sovereign for a while you are still learning each and every time out with it when in the actual field using it. By going with the tones and double checking with the meter you are also right 100% correct. I have high hopes for you and your GT and feel we will be seeing some great finds found by you in the future as you are understanding the Sovereign.

Good Luck

Rick

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Rick,I have had older green crusted wheat's ID as low as 172.My point these lower numbers are being overlooked or not recovered because hunter think this couldn't be a wheat or Indian cent.Thanks Ron

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Tim,great reminder,as an occasional Explorer user,I adapted to listen close at the tone before glancing at the ID.to my Sovereign. Thanks Ron

 

[Rick(ND)]

Ron,

I know what you are saying as there is cases of this happening, but in most cases it don't happen and once you have used and understand the Sovereign you will see more of this as you know it sounds too good to be trash. This also happens when you get a dime and nickle together in one hole as you know it is different then what you have heard before, so you dig it. I have seen rusty bolts on top of a Franklin half that I could tell something was there as it was different, but the GTI 2500 said nothing but iron there and the other guy with the XLT also said there was nothing but iron. Being it was different and going slower I could hear that high tone of a coin and when dug it was a Franklin half with a big rusty spot where the bolt was. I have said that many time that when you know your Sovereign well you will see some coins or good targets comes in a little different, so once you know how and where trash targets sound like you will dig anything that don't sound like trash, then you will find the odd targets and many gold rings.
What I am trying to say is learn the Sovereign well by experience and tips from others that are successful with the Sovereign, start out simple to make it easy. I think to me the tones are more important than the meter reading as I have got some mercs with a meter reading no higher then 139, but knew it was deep as it was so small a signal and could tell the tones were trying to climb.


Good Luck

Rick

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Rick,good point.Thanks Ron

 

[gear box]

Kinda funny cause I went out yesterday and got a 1909 wheat and right now I couldn't tell you what the ID number was, I dug on tone alone. On the other hand I got 1906-O Barber and it seems when you think it is silver you have a tendency to watch the meter. If it ain't a high silver tone it could be most anything else. And Rick,there's a sense of personal satisfication when you dig something good and there is iron or something else with it. A great confidence builder.
Good luck Gary