Found This Interesting Tid Bit From Andy Sabisch's Field Test Of The GT & It's Sensitivity To Tiny Targets Compared To Older Sovereigns...

[Critterhunter]

A while back some of us had a debate on just how sensitive the Sovereign was to small objects. Appears the old thread blurbs I ran across from when the GT first came out had some merit to what they were saying- That it appears to be more sensitive than prior Sovereigns, as I also find that my GT is more sensitive to small stuff than what most people seem to give the Sovereign credit for. Of course coil selection can also have some effect on small target sensitivity. In general the smaller the coil the more sensitive they tend to be to smaller items, but these SEF coils seem to have very good small target ability. Even the 15x12 I owned shocked me a few times at the depths I would dig a little piece of nothing. The 12x10 seems even better in this respect to me though. Anyway, here's that blurb I saw in Andy's field test of the GT...

"I compared the GT to an earlier version an XS2a Pro and found that the GT was able to detect targets noticeably deeper, produced clearer signals on deep targets and was able to detect some very small targets such as an earring and Civil War percussion cap which the XS2a Pro could not. Another point to note was that this was with an 8 Coin Search coil on the XS2a and the 10 Tornado coil on the GT!"

(END QUOTE)

I've often wondered what would happen if you gave a guy who used to own a Sovereign a GT, or at least strapped a modern coil on an his old Sovereign model such as the 10" Tornado, the 12x10, perhaps the Ultimate, or even the new Tornado 8" BBS coil. As many say for instance the old BBS coils that came on some models were not all that great compared to their modern Tornado replacements that made their appearance with the Elite model right before the GT. I'd think it would be very interesting if they were given a GT, or as said one of these modern coils, was put on one of their old models they used to use, and then hear their remarks about improvements in depth, separation, and sensitivity to smaller items. All the Sovereign models were said to be deep beyond belief, but just think of what kinds of further depths, or better separation, or stability they might see, if they used a GT or a modern coil.

I think it would be very intersting to hear their field reports, because I know the 10" Tornado is the best stock DD coil I ever owned (the Pro Coil on the Etrac I've used being right up there of course), and I know the 12x10 has done wonders for me in both depth, separation, and stability. It was like getting a turbo charged Sovereign. Even the response seems "faster" due to the sharper DD field which causes more distinct reaction between targets, and oddly even the audio seems more "crisp" and sharper.

 

[Rick(ND)]

The XS2a was not the Sovereign I was used to and I have said it over and over again that the XS and the XS2 were better, but the XS2a was OK for some. When I fist got my GT I do remember many saying they didn't think it was any better then the older Sovereigns, but I found it with the stock 10 inch Tornado coil I was going deeper than I had for a while when I had a Elite and a XS2a, I was getting more false signals on iron as it seem a bit more sensitive than any of the Sovereigns I had used before. Still many used to say there was no difference than the older Sovereigns, but after some used the GT for a while and got to know the GT better they seen it was probably the best Sovereign made. Minelab must think so too as they have stayed the GT for more years than any other Sovereign they ever built, but wish they would make one with a built in meter and lighter weight using the GT circuity.
I feel the GT is the best, but the XS and the XS2 are also great Sovereign, now the Elite and the XS2a are OK and as you notice they were not built very long and the 2 originals I had tried I really wasn't overly impressed with that model.

Rick

 

[badarse]

I've seen Andy's comparison before and wanted to clear a few points up that bothered me. I have been using sovereigns for over 15 years. Had every model and tried most every coil. In Andy's comparison, note he used an 8 inch coinsearch compared to a 10 inch tornado coil. Vast difference there. I have dismantled many coinsearch coils and there are differences in the construction and electronics. There are a few different pre-amps used and the coil specs vary. Some models are just better then others. The earlier coinseach coils were not as good as the later ones in sensitivity and depth, and neither was at hot as the Tornado coil.

Also if you look inside your GT box the main processor is stamped Sov Elite so there is little difference between the Elite and GT as far as that goes. The main reason they stopped making the Elite is the outcry over the odd placement of the switches and I agree with that. I currently use an Elite, GT and a hybrid GT/Elite ( GT small board-Elite main board ). I'm happy to grab anyone of them as I do not see much difference in sensitivity or depth. If you eliminate the tracking feature on the GT you basically have the Elite. Take a look at the pic. I cut up a nickel in small pieces for my sensitivity test. Piece measures 5mm x 5mm. All my Sovs with the same 13 inch coil see this small piece at 2-3 inches, no problem. Similar results with a 10 inch toronado though not quite as deep. The larger coil is actually more sensitive I've found.

Anyway this is what I have seen
Bob

 

[Mark ( ohio )]

n/t

 

[Rick(ND)]

My Experience is in actual hunting conditions where I use my Sovereign since 1996 where I have seen things that are quite different than any air test or reburied targets which anyone that has got to know the Sovereign are seeing.
First I have never opened up the control box of a Elite or the GT, but know the performance is different on those 2 detectors. The circuit board may say Elite as that can be the same basic board, but to me the performance is different as some IC maybe different from the Elite to the GT. I tried 3 different Elites and the first thing I notice is targets sounded deeper than the actually were and didn't like the placement of the controls and really didn't dig anything as deep as I did with my XS2 or XS where I used the 8 inch coinsearch coil and the Elite with the 10 inch Tornado coil. I even tried my 8 inch coinsearch on the Elite too. When I got the GT I could see it seem to be much more like my XS and XS2 but seem to me it was quite a bit more sensitive as it seem to false more on iron which I learned how to tell the difference in. I found that the signals sounded a bit better and actually seem to be deeper than I thought they would be and notice more coins on edge too as the pinpointing would be off as they seem to be off to the side of the hole and where the S-1 made them easy to find. Myself I found the GT to be a improvement over the Elites I have tried and had a few others too that feel this way too that knows their Sovereigns well. To most they may not see a difference, but to a few of us that know and use our Sovereigns for actual hunting can see a difference.
All Sovereigns are good compared to the competition, but some model just seem to be a little better, I think to 2 models that Minelab stayed with the longest was the XS and now the GT for a reason.

Anyway that is how I see it from my experience with all the Sovereign series.

Good Luck to all and would like to see some great finds being posted with their Sovereigns.

On Sunday Sept 2 2012 will be 40 years with my wife and one of the best hunting buddies anyone can ask for, how time flys so fast.


Rick

 

[xwyokid]

My Experience is in actual hunting conditions where I use my Sovereign since 1996 where I have seen things that are quite different than any air test or reburied targets which anyone that has got to know the Sovereign are seeing.
First I have never opened up the control box of a Elite or the GT, but know the performance is different on those 2 detectors. The circuit board may say Elite as that can be the same basic board, but to me the performance is different as some IC maybe different from the Elite to the GT. I tried 3 different Elites and the first thing I notice is targets sounded deeper than the actually were and didn't like the placement of the controls and really didn't dig anything as deep as I did with my XS2 or XS where I used the 8 inch coinsearch coil and the Elite with the 10 inch Tornado coil. I even tried my 8 inch coinsearch on the Elite too. When I got the GT I could see it seem to be much more like my XS and XS2 but seem to me it was quite a bit more sensitive as it seem to false more on iron which I learned how to tell the difference in. I found that the signals sounded a bit better and actually seem to be deeper than I thought they would be and notice more coins on edge too as the pinpointing would be off as they seem to be off to the side of the hole and where the S-1 made them easy to find. Myself I found the GT to be a improvement over the Elites I have tried and had a few others too that feel this way too that knows their Sovereigns well. To most they may not see a difference, but to a few of us that know and use our Sovereigns for actual hunting can see a difference.
All Sovereigns are good compared to the competition, but some model just seem to be a little better, I think to 2 models that Minelab stayed with the longest was the XS and now the GT for a reason.

Anyway that is how I see it from my experience with all the Sovereign series.

Good Luck to all and would like to see some great finds being posted with their Sovereigns.

On Sunday Sept 2 2012 will be 40 years with my wife and one of the best hunting buddies anyone can ask for, how time flys so fast.


Rick

Your wife must be some lady to have put up with all those years!!LOL This past April the wife and I celebrated 44 years. She just about has me trained properly

 

[badarse]

Hi Rick,

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. Apologize if I did. I'm strictly a beach hunter so my experience is indeed different then yours. I did have an Elite a few years back that wasn't up to snuff. I am very happy with the current Elite I have as it is a much better unit then the previous one I tried. I enjoy reading your post Rick, and respect your knowledge of the Sovereign. Have a very happy anniversary my friend!

Bob

 

[liberty25]

Great post, great information by all. Thanks guys.

 

[Rick(ND)]

Thanks Bob for the well wishes and I feel I have the most wonderful wife anyone can ask for as she hates spending money on thing she don't really needs which is good as I like to spend money on trying different detectors.

On the Detectors I like good discussions on some detectors from actual experiences as it help everyone to help understand how they can learn more about the detector they use. I like to post my actual experiences with the one I use and when I see something I don't agree on I say something in most cases if someone is listening. I have seen several that don't agree at first and now that they have some experience with it they are seeing what what I was saying and now saying the same thing. Not a expert yet as don't know of anyone that knows it all, but feel I do well with my Sovereigns for my land hunting and still learning more each time out with it.

As much as I want to use my Sovereign I haven't yet this year as I was trying other detector like the Deus and now the CTX 3030 and trying to learn them and have some health issues so don't get out too much and figure I just got to leave my GT at home so I can spend more time trying to learn my others, but if I had a chance to hunt a yard for one day only I would grab my GT as I feel I know it and will dig less and more goodies.

Rick

 

[Rick(ND)]

Thanks for the well wishes and yes my wife has to be very special to put up with me for all those years. She is very special as she was a farmers daughter that learn how to work when Young and how to make things work out. 40 years and no fights, just a little disagreements a few time in 40 years and one of us knows when to shut up so there is no big disagreement.
I wonder if she win a 30 million dollar lottery if she will still put up with me?? Did I say she loves detecting too, what more can I ask for??

Rick

 

[gear box]

Congratulation's to you and your wife on 40 years of happines. And yes time does fly by.
Good luck Gary

 

[Critterhunter]

Rick, on experience with the Sovereign, some of us might not have all the years you've had with them, but many of us have had years on other machines. I myself have owned most of whats out there from just about every make and model. Always liked to sample the wine, so to speak. I'm three years into this machine, and lord knows I've also done a ton of reading digging up old posts from years ago when the GT first came out, as well as on the various other models.

So while in no way do I consider myself an expert with the Sovereign, this ain't exactly my first rodeo either. With all the hours I've hunted with it, all the testing I've done (I know you don't agree but I feel testing has many things to teach you about a detector), and all the good old coins, a few gold rings, and other neat relics I've dug with it, I think I've got something to offer to people who are trying to come up to speed on this machine faster.

If anything, just all the reading and views I've read from ancient posts that have long been buried in the depths of various forums, at least that can of stuff is worth relating even if my personal experience of three years or so isn't up to some people's snuff in terms of some others. Many of the threads I've unearthed are also from guys who have used the machine for years, so I put stock in what they have to say as well, along with the current long time users who still use a Sovereign and post here and there.

Does this machine still have a ton to teach me? You bet, and mainly because it has such a rich detailed language that you never quite ever finish learning about just what it has to say to you. That's one of the reasons why I feel nobody ever really out grows this machine. The longer you use it, the more stuff you'll pop out of "dead spots" that other machines never have room to let you grow and push it's abilities further and further.

To each his own on how long one has to use a machine to be able to have a trustworthy opinion on it. I feel I'm just trying to do my part, as evidenced by all the Emails and PMs I constantly get from people who would never dare post in an open forum for one reason or another. I never judge, I just try to help, and I think that's why some people want to ask a few questions here and there that they otherwise would never ask.

Beyond all the years of experience of some people, for other people in other grounds how the machine wants to be tuned and should be swung can be a bit different. The swing speed debate just being one example of this. As evidenced by ISM's video of how he couldn't even hear targets at a super slow swing speed *in his soil, using his 12x10 coil*, I've been revisiting that debate with myself as well.

Just yesterday I swung over a few deep targets while dry sand hunting with the 12x10. Results? A faster swing speed banged much harder on them, and in fact a super slow or even what most would probably consider a somewhat faster but still dog slow "normal" swing of the Sovereign wouldn't even get a peep out of those targets.

Now, when I say fast, it didn't take all that fast of a sweep to make them sound off. Probably still what others would call slow or at the max a slow medium speed on other machines, but just the same even at a super high swing speed those targets still banged hard and I couldn't swing fast enough to make them go away.

I'm also talking about a long general hunting sweep over them, and not the wiggle that most agree needs to be faster to pull the best ID and tone at depth out of a target. This beach is mineralized. But is it my soil, my sand, or maybe even the 12x10 coils me and Ism are using? I don't have answers to that yet, so further in field testing is needed to see if I can see a trend, and I intend to post those results along with a video down the road here somewhere so people can see with their own eyes and judge for themselves.

I don't even know if a super slow crawl won't see deep targets better. Maybe it's a soil thing on long buried targets and not stuff floating around in the sand. All I know is that if I don't ask questions and explorer other possibilities, nothing ever will be learned either way.

Then there is the old debate about hunting in PP mode or all metal being perhaps deeper than discrimination. I've owned many machines over the years, and I can honestly say that at least in my soil not one of them was any deeper in all metal than discriminate that I can tell. I believe much of that opinion that all metal is deeper is derived from older detectors back in the day that had very primative discrimination circuits. Is the GT deeper in PP or all metal? Haven't played with it enough yet to say either way, but I can say thus far I'm not seeing any depth advantage in those modes over discrimination when I have tested them in the field on undug deep targets. In fact, many times a deep coin won't even sound off in PP for me, while I can hear it easily in discriminate. That's one of the reasons why I rarely with use PP mode to pin point a target. I prefer discrimination for that, and also because PP can drag me off a coin near iron and make me think the coin signal is an iron false.

That's the kind of stuff I live for. It is as much fun to me to find this stuff out on a detector as it is to dig an old coin. While I don't see the attraction to hunting seeded fields, some people live for that too. I say to each his own, and I'm not going to say otherwise to people who don't hold the same interests as me. That's my view anyway.

Some people have very different views than me on various aspects of the Sovereign. I respect that, and in fact they might be 100% right...But in their soil, and using their various coils. Those two things can change results IMO. Just like the sensitivity thing. I feel (and many others have said too in the past in my searching for threads)...that the lower you ride sensitivity away from the edge of stability, the faster the machine seems to want you to swing to bang hard on the deep stuff. By the same token, the more you ride the edge of stability, the slower the machine seems to want you to go to bang at depth. Could it just be that you can swing faster with a lower sensitivity and not have the threshold drop out on you, and could it be that when riding a slightly unstable sensitivity you just need to swing at a crawl (in some soils) to keep the threshold from nulling out, and that there really isn't any depth advantage of say a faster swing speed regardless of where sensitivity is set? I don't know, but I've seen enough in my own personal experience and also in what others have said in the past to want to ask those kinds of questions and explorer outcomes on my own.

I find this sort of "pass time" an enjoyable one for not just the old coins and relics to be found, but also in exploring the limits and unique traits of a machine in my soil, along with in trying various coils and various settings. To me it's a mystery to be solved and read like a good book to find out what happens. Just my nature I guess, and I guess that's the kind of stuff that floats my boat and I find interesting. As said, to each his own...

 

[Critterhunter]

Bob, as I said in the above start of this thread...Coil choice can be a factor in both sensitivity to small objects and also in depth/stability of a machine of course. But I've dug through some old threads that if memory serves even had people saying that the GT seemed to have more sensitivity to tiny targets then the Elite as well, and both of those machines are using the 10" Tornado, as the Tornado made it's advent on the Elite. Of course they could have been using some other coil on their Elite that wasn't as sensitive to tiny stuff as the 10" Tornado they had on their GT.

Far as the board being stamped Elite, just because both boards may or may not look identical in components, that's not to say that some of those components might be lower in circuit board noise or higher in tolerances so they hold within operating specs better. I can tell you that I've owned several QIIs, several QXTs, and several QXT Pros. Whites said that the QXT Pro was only a change in name only and that the electronics were identical. Perhaps they were, but I bet some of those components, since they were manufactured several years down the road, where tighter in specifications and perhaps generated less circuit noise.

Because, all my QXTs would only allow sensitivity to be risen to 16 and still remain stable. My QXT Pros all allowed 2 more clicks higher at 18 without chatter. This is holding the coil still, and using the same coil, so ground conditions were not a factor. Why would Whites say both machines were identical component wise while the Pro clearly allowed a bit higher sensitivity and thus a tad more depth?

I believe the only answer is that more modern versions of some of those components had tighter tolerances and were rated at lower EMI generation so they didn't create as much noise on the circuit board. As the years go by, the same part from 10 years ago, like say an opt amp for instance, can amplify a signal without as much distortion or EMI generation, or at least holds within it's designed operating specifications better. That's why I think the Pro was a bit hotter. And I owned several of the QXTs and several of the Pros, so it wasn't like I got the odd hotter unit. All QXTs acted the same, and all Pros acted a bit better and the same as each other.

Why would Whites say the Pro was only a change in name only, to go along with the "Pro" version of the 6000 and such for marketing reasons, if indeed the Pro was able to ride sensitivity higher? I suspect Whites couldn't legally say "enhancements to the QXT", because that would be technically not true since the parts were all the same on the board and it wasn't re-designed. It's just that it was a bit more stable due to less circuit board noise, and maybe certain components ran within more strict specifications.

So I would suspect the GT, even if largely it's circuit make up is identical in most respects to the Elite, probably has a few parts on the board that are a bit tighter in specifications, and perhaps generate a bit less noise. My theory anyway, but I could be wrong.

All that said, obviously the GT does indeed have at least some modifications to it's electronics due to a few extra features on it. I don't believe the Elite has accutrac all metal tracking does it? I could be wrong but I thought that one of the features touted on the GT was the additional of Accutrak ground tracking in all metal, both a tracking and a fixed mode, that I thought the Elite didn't feature? If true, then obviously then didn't just stick the Elite board in the GT without doing a few things to it, even if largely most of the board was left alone.

 

[Critterhunter]

Got an update on the sweep speed debate. Today I hit a different beach for another dry sand hunt. Unlike yesterday, today the GT and 12x10 would sound off to very deep fringe targets when I slowed the coil down to even almost a dead stop crawl over them. Yesterday at a different beach if I went super slow over deep targets at fringe depth the GT and 12x10 wouldn't even make a change in threshold or even a null to indicate they were there. Only when I brought it up to probably what is considered the normal slow sweep speed did the GT starting sounding off, but when I swung even faster they hit harder, and as said I couldn't make them disappear no mater how fast I swept. But today, those super deep fringe ones would sound off even if I ran SUPER slow past them. And how hard they hit was just as good as when I swung faster, but once again even at a super fast Whites speed (and beyond like yesterday) these targets STILL hit hard.

Exact opposite of yesterday in terms of what a super slow (slower than a Sovereign's normal sweep) sweep speed would do, both on both days they still sounded off at a lightning fast sweep. Couldn't make them disappear. Sure, at extreme fast speed they started to break up a little today (unlike yesterday), but they still sounded off.

Yesterday I was running sensitivity at about noon. Today at this other beach I had to drop it to about 3PM to get the threshold to stop dropping off so much. So it appears the beach yesterday was less mineralized, which may account for why the super slow crawl yesterday wouldn't sound off to fringe deep targets. This then jives with what I've read from some others in the past...That the higher the mineralization, *perhaps* the slower you need to crawl to hit the deepies, where as if the minerals are lower oddly at a super slow almost dead stop crawl won't sound off to the target, but about normal Sovereign sweep speed would. But on both days fast would not lose the target. Just that today with the higher minerals at super fast they started to break up a bit but not yesterday.

More testing is in order for sure, because the results to me are very interesting and I think it might be soil/sand based. Coil choice too might be a factor. And then there is sensitivity. I've read (and experienced) many times that the higher you ride sensitivity (say past noon) the slower you need to sweep, but the lower you ride it (noon or lower) the faster you can sweep. I'm thinking soil type, coil choice, and sensitivity level...All factor in as to if a super slow crawl will see or not see deeper, and that you may have to at least go at normal Sovereign pace if not a bit faster for deepest/hardest hit depending on all 3 of these variables. Clearly ISM's video showed that his 12x10 in his soil wouldn't sound off at a crawl. Yesterday that was true for me too, and that was at a super slow crawl like he did, but today the exact opposite was true. More going on here than just one solid rigid rule that everybody must live by IMO.

But, not saying you got to swing like a Whites to get best depth in some soils/sands. They didn't hit harder when I got that fast, just pointing out that they did still hit. But I am saying that somewhat faster than the normal Sovereign swing speed might hit harder at depth in some soils/sands, depending on maybe the coil and the sensitivity level. Still, even at a faster sweep, it's probably what speed most people would call dog slow on other machines. Just nice to know you don't have to necessarily crawl inches at a time with the Sovereign maybe. Going to test this more on undug fringe deep targets in the field and see where this carries me. Videos to show what is going on too I think...

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Bob appreciate if you stick around.Thanks Ron