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Excal Charger.
- Thread starter excalme
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
Your welcome.
Kered, that's what I'm guessing- the power supply must have a thermistor in it that senses temperture (via resistance of the thermistor) and then decides if things might get damp if ran below a certain temperture. We've kind'a mixed up terminology in the past when discussing the Excal batteries and such. Thermal overloads are designed to open like a circuit breaker when tempertures get too hot. Once they cool down they re-connect things, but this is still very bad to do over and over. They have a certain number of "pops" before they won't re-seat. Thermistors change resistance based on temperture and often they are used to say display the engine coolant temperture on your car's dash. The gauge in the dash has it's power routed through the thermistor (coolant temperture sensor). As resistance increases less voltage is fed to the gauge which is wired in series after the thermistor, producing movement of the needle on the dash. Now, before somebody busts my chops I realize many cars do it different ways. Some temp sensors are read by the computer first and then it outputs a variable voltage based on that to the dash, but the above method is/was probably the most common.
Anyway, quick/dirty way around the temp of the power supply when it's too cold in my garage is I plan to heat it up a bit with my heat gun.
Glad the lipos are coming (if they don't run out of them before filling all the orders ahead of you?). What cable are you waiting on? If it's a simple connector cancel that so the order gets shipped right away and head over to your local hobby store. I'm sure they'll have whatever you are looking for. What kind of cable is it anyway?
Kered, that's what I'm guessing- the power supply must have a thermistor in it that senses temperture (via resistance of the thermistor) and then decides if things might get damp if ran below a certain temperture. We've kind'a mixed up terminology in the past when discussing the Excal batteries and such. Thermal overloads are designed to open like a circuit breaker when tempertures get too hot. Once they cool down they re-connect things, but this is still very bad to do over and over. They have a certain number of "pops" before they won't re-seat. Thermistors change resistance based on temperture and often they are used to say display the engine coolant temperture on your car's dash. The gauge in the dash has it's power routed through the thermistor (coolant temperture sensor). As resistance increases less voltage is fed to the gauge which is wired in series after the thermistor, producing movement of the needle on the dash. Now, before somebody busts my chops I realize many cars do it different ways. Some temp sensors are read by the computer first and then it outputs a variable voltage based on that to the dash, but the above method is/was probably the most common.
Anyway, quick/dirty way around the temp of the power supply when it's too cold in my garage is I plan to heat it up a bit with my heat gun.
Glad the lipos are coming (if they don't run out of them before filling all the orders ahead of you?). What cable are you waiting on? If it's a simple connector cancel that so the order gets shipped right away and head over to your local hobby store. I'm sure they'll have whatever you are looking for. What kind of cable is it anyway?
All order is now complete, i was waiting for the twin cable so i can charge both together but they are now in stock and marked reserved , the order is now as processing so shouldn't be long. Here there are not many hobby shops within 100miles most has to be internet ordered if its anything other than the basic model, its even hard to find balsawood and shrinkwrap for covering wings etc but i'm used to it now and just look directly on the net and pay postasge rather than fuel driving arround looking for what i need
Critterhunter
New member
Kered, just remember that if the two packs you plan to charge together at the same time via that adaptor (I also have a two 3 cell lipo adaptor to charge them both together) are in a much different state of charge it may take twice as long to charge them. The charger will keep playing musical cells trying to keep the ones already charged at that voltage while it tries to get the others to catch up. I prefer one pack at a time but it's useful to charge two at once if you don't want to swap packs when one is done, like say you are busy and might not get back to the pack for an hour or so.
Also, a few other things that were confusing to me about charging lipos with this charger: Regular charge mode will charge a lipo that only has a power plug but no molex balance plug. Balance mode is the normal charge mode and not just some special balancing function. 99% of the time you'll be using that and must plug both the power plug and the Molex into the charger. Fast mode is the same as balance mode except it stops the charger in say the last twenty minutes or so where the lipo is only being peaked via a small low current that is time consuming. By cutting out that last topping off low charge you'll only be costing yourself maybe 300ma on a 2000ma pack yet it will save as much as a half hour or so off the charge time. I use this function a lot in the field while I charge a pack while flying the other. I never notice the smaller capacity. I'd use that mode when you want to go detecting in less than an hour.
When charging two 3 cell packs at once remember to set the charger for 6 cells. Here's the confusing part...Neither lipo's power plug is plugged in to anything. Rather, the charger's Dean's power plug plugs into the adaptor's. Only both Molex balance plugs from the two packs plug into the adaptor, and the adaptor's Molex plugs into the proper 6 cell port on the charger. That's if you are using the same yellow adaptor I'm using that they sell for like $2 or $3. Remember too that it's possible to charge packs in both series and parallel via certain adaptors and these configurations have certain advantages over doing it the other way, but I've never had to do something as exotic than using the two 3 cell pack adaptor.
Also, a few other things that were confusing to me about charging lipos with this charger: Regular charge mode will charge a lipo that only has a power plug but no molex balance plug. Balance mode is the normal charge mode and not just some special balancing function. 99% of the time you'll be using that and must plug both the power plug and the Molex into the charger. Fast mode is the same as balance mode except it stops the charger in say the last twenty minutes or so where the lipo is only being peaked via a small low current that is time consuming. By cutting out that last topping off low charge you'll only be costing yourself maybe 300ma on a 2000ma pack yet it will save as much as a half hour or so off the charge time. I use this function a lot in the field while I charge a pack while flying the other. I never notice the smaller capacity. I'd use that mode when you want to go detecting in less than an hour.
When charging two 3 cell packs at once remember to set the charger for 6 cells. Here's the confusing part...Neither lipo's power plug is plugged in to anything. Rather, the charger's Dean's power plug plugs into the adaptor's. Only both Molex balance plugs from the two packs plug into the adaptor, and the adaptor's Molex plugs into the proper 6 cell port on the charger. That's if you are using the same yellow adaptor I'm using that they sell for like $2 or $3. Remember too that it's possible to charge packs in both series and parallel via certain adaptors and these configurations have certain advantages over doing it the other way, but I've never had to do something as exotic than using the two 3 cell pack adaptor.
I don't understand. I use the ML charger for my E-TRAC, SE, and Sovereign... the same charger will charger all three. Am I missing something? I will admit I never know how long to charge and when the charge is complete.
Also, I bought 8 2900mah AA rechargables. They are NiMH. I was going to just buy a whatever brand AA charger or one that will charge different kinds of batteries. I don't need a involved technical explaination that I wont understand, just a "for dummies" explaination and maybe ... if should I buy some particular charger? Don't they all just charge batteries?
Thanks.
Julien
Also, I bought 8 2900mah AA rechargables. They are NiMH. I was going to just buy a whatever brand AA charger or one that will charge different kinds of batteries. I don't need a involved technical explaination that I wont understand, just a "for dummies" explaination and maybe ... if should I buy some particular charger? Don't they all just charge batteries?
Thanks.
Julien
Items posted and have tracking number
You must be a mind reader i was going to ask before first charge rather than do something wrong, i only got the twin cable just in case, i'll probably never use it but its always there if needed and ordered it together with the car cigarette lighter adapter plug(to power charger) in case i need that too(saved postage), say if i go on a camping holiday.
Yes its the same yellow adapter with the dean plug $1.80
Only one question, for the first few charges do i need to C/10 form charge or is that only for the nicad/nimh
You must be a mind reader i was going to ask before first charge rather than do something wrong, i only got the twin cable just in case, i'll probably never use it but its always there if needed and ordered it together with the car cigarette lighter adapter plug(to power charger) in case i need that too(saved postage), say if i go on a camping holiday.
Yes its the same yellow adapter with the dean plug $1.80
Only one question, for the first few charges do i need to C/10 form charge or is that only for the nicad/nimh
jbow said:
I have the same ML charger and yes they will charge the 2 battery types but they do it in a different way. The ml charger pushes out a fixed voltage(15v) that is higher than the battery voltage so the batteries fill up(to some degree) Unfortunately they keep on trying to fill up so you need to switch them off.
Both nicad and nimh batteries have a full capacity when being charged, once this capacity is reached if you keep on charging they start to discharge.(have you never noticed or thought wow that pack didn't last long) if you put the batteries on charge overnight like most do they may reach for example full charge after only say 4 hours, so you are then in effect discharging them slightly, if completely flat after 8-9 hours they are not charged and you have no way of knowing
The accucel-6 is a negative delta V charger, this means that it detects the very slight decrease in voltage when the batteries are full and cuts off.
You also have a variable charge rate that can be set depending on the battery mah, for example the Sov GT/Elite pack if i remember is 1000mah the Explorer/etrac are 1600mah and 1800mah depending on the one you have. The only way the Standard charger can charge these to anywhere near full is time dependant according to the size in mah as it only charges at 100mah(0.1amp), therefore a flat sov battery will take at least 10 hours and the Explorer/etrac 16 hours (the 8 rechargables 29 hours if you were to use the ML charger) You can see by these numbers that it takes longer to charge than discharge with the ML charger.
The accucel charger has an infinitely selectable charge rate between 0.1 and 5.0amps, if set at 1.6amp it would then charge the 1600mah battery in an hour(unfortunately the etrac battery is protected with a thermistor and won't allow much over 0.7amp which is a little over 2 hours) it can be done faster).
Another problem with batteries is they need to be cycled, discharged to flat then slowly charge to full 2 or 3 times in succession (a couple of times a year depending on use)to keep them in peak condition and stop the so called memory (nimh have it too although to a lesser degree than nicad)
With a couple of battery holders you can charge almost any amount of AA/AAA's ( 1-15 max)that it will detect and adjust voltage accordingly, i even use it on my 9v (pp3) on the uniprobe. It will alsocharge lead acid too.
The minelab wall charger for etrac is $14.99, the car charger $49.99 so at $19.99 it has advantages and i haven't even mentioned the li-ion battery capabilities that it was designed for.
Only slight drawback for some maybe is that it is powered of a 10-18v power source but a 12v power supply will cost in the region of $10 or you can make a good one from a PC power supply, having said that you can take it in the car and use the cigarette lighter outlet to run it without modification.
Hope this is not too tech
Do you think i'd make a good salesman ?
HH
Critterhunter
New member
If you are going the route of just buying an AA charger and don't know much about them or nimhs/nicads then I would suggest going to Walmart and buying a charger that comes with something like Energizer AA nimhs in the 2200 or higher MA range. Be real careful not to buy any batteries listed lower than that as in this day and age they should be at least that high or higher. Some of my Energizers are 2500ma I got there. I'd stay away from any charger that is a "fast" charger, meaning an hour or less. You'll get less life out of those cells even if they are "designed" to work with the fast charger they come with. At least buy a charger that has both a fast mode and a slower/healthier mode. Only use the fast mode here and there. Another place to look for ultra cheap chargers and nimhs/nicads is at Harbor Tool & Freight, though they might not have cells with as high of capacity. Haven't looked.
EDIT- Saw you bought 2900ma nimhs. Great, that's a very good capacity. Now I'd head up to Walmart and look for a good nimh charger. As I said, I would stay away from the fast chargers or at least buy one that has a slow and fast charge function. Use the slow one whenever possible.
EDIT- Saw you bought 2900ma nimhs. Great, that's a very good capacity. Now I'd head up to Walmart and look for a good nimh charger. As I said, I would stay away from the fast chargers or at least buy one that has a slow and fast charge function. Use the slow one whenever possible.
Critterhunter
New member
kered said:Items posted and have tracking number
You must be a mind reader i was going to ask before first charge rather than do something wrong, i only got the twin cable just in case, i'll probably never use it but its always there if needed and ordered it together with the car cigarette lighter adapter plug(to power charger) in case i need that too(saved postage), say if i go on a camping holiday.
Yes its the same yellow adapter with the dean plug $1.80
Only one question, for the first few charges do i need to C/10 form charge or is that only for the nicad/nimh
Kered, be careful charging lipos in your car. If they go nuclear for some reason you stand a good chance of burning up the car as well. In the field flying RC we just open the hood and clip the alligator leads to the two battery posts. At least if something goes wrong under the hood you stand less chance of catching something on a fire and also can keep a better eye on it. Also, lipos (like other batteries) do not like heat. Don't leave them in the sun or inside the car. I know a friend who did that and he had bloated lipos after a few hot days. Lucky it wasn't worse than that.
On the storage function when putting them to sleep for weeks or more- The charger will automaticly decide if the cells need charged or discharged to get them to the proper voltage for that. You also need to use both plugs (molex and power plug).
Guys in RC still believe lipos will give longer life, more capacity, and can deliver high amp draws (like 40 or more amps, much more than your detector will draw) if you cycle them like a nimh or nicad. Unlike those, however, the lipos should only be drawn down to no lower than 9V. Be careful, as I've had a cell dip below 9V when doing a low amp draw discharge on this charger, as I don't think it can monitor each cell while doing this like it can when charging or putting at a storage charge. At the very least what's going on is the low amp draw (south of 1 amp) allows the voltage drain to "sneak up" on the cells and thus one might dip below 3V before it shuts off. If they were drawn down at something in the 10 or more amp range they wouldn't be as prone to this, and also would "bounce back" in voltage to something higher once the discharge stops. Obviously this charger can't drain them at something that high, nor should you when breaking the lipos in anyway.
Here's how I break in my 2250ma 3 cell packs. I'll do about 5 cycles of charge/discharge. Charge the pack first as it won't be fully charged when shipped. Charge at .50 (half an amp). Drain at .50 (half an amp). It may only start out at something lower than that when discharging because of the 5watt discharge limit. No problem, just set it for .5 amps and let it go as high as it can. It will raise some as the voltage drops since watts=voltsxamps. Not going to do the math in my head right now to confirm all this or give more specific numbers. Just set it at .5 amps to charge, then .5 amps to discharge. Here's the thing, though- Since the amp draw is so low as said above (as it should be when conditioning new batteries) make sure you are around to watch it when the lipo gets near 9V. Hit the "+" key so you can watch all three cells. I wouldn't even let it get to 3V per cell for fear one might dip below that. Once it's say in the 9.10 volts or so per cell range (or something near there like even 9.20 or 9.30 volts, meaning 3.10 to say 3.30 volts per cell) I'd just stop the discharge and charge it again at .5 volts to the normal 12.60 volts (which the charger won't say on the screen when setting up the 3 cell lipo charge...it lists like 12.1V or something, but you'll see the right voltage on the screen when charging). That's the thing, lipo makers I think call 3 cell lipos 11.1volts, as that's the average voltage over the discharge, even though they charge to 12.60V.
Once you've cycled them 5 times like above they should be good to go with a long life ahead of them. Also, if cycle #5 still has the capacity increasing over #4 then you might want to keep going until it's maxed out (meaning the same or very near what the last cycle was). This same method of determing # of cycles works for nimhs/nicads when conditioning new ones (meaning watching the capacity on each cycle.
Also, conditioning nimhs or nicads would also be the same methods and amp draws/chargers as above but you can drain them dead and also of course the peak voltage will be different, nor is there a need to monitor the cells like the concerns I discussed above for lipos.
Trying to bring bad bad nimhs or nicads is a different story. As I covered before that's when giving them a fast/hard charge of well less than an hour (at least for a few minutes to "shock" them and try to break down crystals causing resistance), and draining them fast and hard with a car light bulb can bring them back to life. After doing this say two or three times then be gentle with them and charge at say a 10 hour slow charge rate. After that they might be fine. I've recovered many a bad nimh or nicad pack this way. When draining on the light bulb leave it on there for a good 3 hours or more to make sure all the cells are dead after the bulb goes out. Sometimes a bad pack is because of one cell having a high state of charge while others are near dead, so when you charge the pack the charged cell kicks the charger off by dropping a lot in voltage and triggering the m/v setting. It gets hot and over charged while the others are still not charged. That's why draining good and dead is a good thing for nimhs/nicads once in a while, and also why it's good for a bad pack to try to recover. It also excercises them and makes them hold more capacity.
Remember too Kered, a 1 hour (1C) charge rate for lipos is a perfectly fine and healthy charge rate, unlike nimhs and nicads that many believe is abusing them at that fast of a rate. Sure, they can put up with it but it might shorten cycle life. The basic rules of lipo care and feeding are: NEVER charge at more than 1C (1 hour or so charge time), NEVER drain less than 9V (or 3 volts per cell), NEVER puncture, crush, or dent a lipo. A puncture is going to cause a fire or maybe explosion. Get away. A dent or bend might not hurt it, but put it somewhere safe for a few days and keep an eye on it. Never short a lipo, which can also cause a fire or explosion. Never charge a lipo with anything but a lipo charger and the right cell count set up. Don't leave them in a hot car. In long periods of non-use put them at the sleep voltage (feature on this charger) and store in the refrigerator in a ziplock if you want, but at least in a metal case. I've got into the habit of putting them in the fridge even if I'm using them the next day, and will put them at the storage charge if not used for a few weeks or more. This will greatly help their life. Don't freeze them, either. If the pack is hot from discharge (which it won't be at the low detector amp draws but can be on planes) then don't re-charge it until it cools down for 20 minutes or so. It's that simple. No more complicated than nimhs or nicads for the most part.
Great salesman but I am not sure what I need to buy... I have those 8 2900mah NiMH AAs; I plan to get a 9v; I have the SovereignGT pack and the White's V3 pack.... the E-TRAC and the SE. Everything else uses AAs.
Should I get the accucel-6 and if I do will if have everything I need to charge all this stuff? I bet I am making a mess of my rechargable packs. The V3 charger has a red light that comes on when it is charged but I don't know if it stops charging when it comes on... and I guess if I need to discharge it to flat I would just have to leave the detector on all night.
Thanks for the help... I thought a battery was a battery, i'm glad Icame across this thread!
Julien
Should I get the accucel-6 and if I do will if have everything I need to charge all this stuff? I bet I am making a mess of my rechargable packs. The V3 charger has a red light that comes on when it is charged but I don't know if it stops charging when it comes on... and I guess if I need to discharge it to flat I would just have to leave the detector on all night.
Thanks for the help... I thought a battery was a battery, i'm glad Icame across this thread!
Julien
The accucel-6 will charge almost any battery or pack the only other things you will need are adapter plugs to connect them, it comes with aligator clips and also a plug that fits the Sov xs and excalibur adaptor(its too big for the etrac)
Other things needed
a couple of battery holders for the AA i suggest 2, 4 and 8 and the 9v, these can be got from radioshack and are very cheap.
a power unit to supply 12v for the charger, it must put out 5amp to make full use of the charger, there is a 6amp wall supply on the same site as the charger for $9.46
For the Explorer/Etrac battery i made a small holder with a bit of wood and 2 springs, a bit crude but it works fine, i'll take some pics of the whole setup and post them to give you an idea
Other things needed
a couple of battery holders for the AA i suggest 2, 4 and 8 and the 9v, these can be got from radioshack and are very cheap.
a power unit to supply 12v for the charger, it must put out 5amp to make full use of the charger, there is a 6amp wall supply on the same site as the charger for $9.46
For the Explorer/Etrac battery i made a small holder with a bit of wood and 2 springs, a bit crude but it works fine, i'll take some pics of the whole setup and post them to give you an idea
Critterhunter
New member
Yea, I would buy the Accucel for the money it gives you much more than most chargers even costing well over $100 while this thing is only like $20 to $25. It's rather simple to use and once you set everything up you can save/load programs for your various batteries. Just buy that thing along with the $10 DC power supply they sell at Hobby King. I'm sure Kered and I both will be happy to walk you through each setting on it to set up right for each pack, then just save those. Really most things won't need to be changed and the one program will probably do most of your nimh packs, the other doing most of your nicads. If anything you'd just change the amp charge rate for that specific pack versus the others if you want to.
For something like say the GT's rechargable pack there is a charge circuit inside that little plug on the pack so you can't charge it through that. Just hitch the supplied alligator clips to the positive and negative battery holder leads that come in contact with the GT when it's plugged in. That way you can charge the pack as normal and bypass the charge circuit inside that little plug on the pack where the Minelab "charger" normaly plugs in. You can just use a volt meter to see which holder contacts are the negative and positive, but I think this charger has reverse polarity protection anyway, in which case it will tell you if you've hitched up the charger to the pack backwards.
Kered can fill you in on what other leads the charger comes with that will work with whatever machines you may have, or how to go about hitching up or charging those.
If you get the charger I'll make you a promise...Post every charger setting on here and we'll tell you if you need to change it and to what setting for each pack type. How's that for walking you through this charger with no knowledge? It's not as complicated as it might sound. It's really fairly easy with just a little knowledge of what you are doing. I found the way the menu layout is for things more confusing at first than anything else.
When you buy your holders from Radio Shack (like $1 to $2) for those 2900ma nimhs you'll want an 8AA series holder, in that each cell is in series with the last. This is how most nimh or nicads are charged. Only lipos tend to be charged in parallel via a Molex balance plug so the charger can see and charge each cell separetly to keep things in perfect balance. 8AAs in series is also how your detector holds the batteries in it's holder. 8x1.5V=12V total in series. If say those cells were in parallel you would only still have 1.5V, since voltage does not increase wired in parallel but capacity increased...2900maX8 cells. That's just a simple lesson in how wiring batteries in series or parallel can either increase voltage or increase capacity. For another example, lipos are from 3 (dicharged) to 4.20V (fully charged) in voltage per cell. Most are wired in series and are 3 cell packs, making the total charged voltage 12.60V or down to 9V when they care considered drained (and should never be drained below that, meaning 3V per cell). None of this stuff do you really need to know. Just buy an 8AA holder (most will be in series but just ask the clerk for help) from Radio Shack. Take your alligator clips that the charger comes with for the charging side (not the alligator clips meant for the charger power supply side which also have a DC power plug at the other end that plugs into the charger to power it) and connect them to the two wire leads (or the 9V connector some have on top of them) and the pack is ready to be charged once you set it up properly. After that it's just charge without ever really having to change anything.
Kered, on my 2250 3 cell lipos for the first charge I'll usualy set the charge rate to 250MA, meaning about 8 hours to charge. Second/third/etc conditioning charge I'll go .50 amps for about a 4 hour charge time. Don't drain at anything more than half an amp and note my notes for that in the other message above. Also, those packs you are buying are (?) I think meant for RC transmitters. If that's the case then make sure they still will take a 1C normal charge rate and also how many amps they can handle in discharge. There is a slight chance they are very low in C raitings and so not meant to handle even say an 8C discharge. Anything above say 5C do what I said above. Anything lower and you might want to lower your charge/discharge break in and normal charging amp rates to keep it easy on them. I bet they are at least 8C in discharge ability, though, which would be fine with the above suggestions listed before. And I've never heard of a lipo that couldn't take a normal healthy 1C charge rate but I'm just covering my behind here just in case with my suggestions.
Also, my prior message had numerous small errors here and there. For instance, I said charge at .5 volts or something when conditioning the lipos and of course I meant to say .5 amps. If anything ever doesn't sound right just ask, as I'm prone to making mistakes hammering these messages out fast without checking what I'm saying. For another example, I said 9.10 to 9.30V per cell is when I'd cut off the discharge. Of course I meant say 9.10 to 9.30 for total pack voltage, but really I should have just said somewhere in the 3.10 to 3.30 per cell volt range is when I'd stop the discharge to avoid a lipo cell dipping below 3V. This is just a precaution. In fact, one of the small lipo packs I was given says it can handle being drawn down to 2.75V per cell. Of course the standard most use is a limit of 3V per cell. Same with charging. There are some lipos now that can charge above 1C, but most still go by that rule of never above that to avoid problems and/or confusion. Much easier to do the math in your head by using 1C anyway.
For something like say the GT's rechargable pack there is a charge circuit inside that little plug on the pack so you can't charge it through that. Just hitch the supplied alligator clips to the positive and negative battery holder leads that come in contact with the GT when it's plugged in. That way you can charge the pack as normal and bypass the charge circuit inside that little plug on the pack where the Minelab "charger" normaly plugs in. You can just use a volt meter to see which holder contacts are the negative and positive, but I think this charger has reverse polarity protection anyway, in which case it will tell you if you've hitched up the charger to the pack backwards.
Kered can fill you in on what other leads the charger comes with that will work with whatever machines you may have, or how to go about hitching up or charging those.
If you get the charger I'll make you a promise...Post every charger setting on here and we'll tell you if you need to change it and to what setting for each pack type. How's that for walking you through this charger with no knowledge? It's not as complicated as it might sound. It's really fairly easy with just a little knowledge of what you are doing. I found the way the menu layout is for things more confusing at first than anything else.
When you buy your holders from Radio Shack (like $1 to $2) for those 2900ma nimhs you'll want an 8AA series holder, in that each cell is in series with the last. This is how most nimh or nicads are charged. Only lipos tend to be charged in parallel via a Molex balance plug so the charger can see and charge each cell separetly to keep things in perfect balance. 8AAs in series is also how your detector holds the batteries in it's holder. 8x1.5V=12V total in series. If say those cells were in parallel you would only still have 1.5V, since voltage does not increase wired in parallel but capacity increased...2900maX8 cells. That's just a simple lesson in how wiring batteries in series or parallel can either increase voltage or increase capacity. For another example, lipos are from 3 (dicharged) to 4.20V (fully charged) in voltage per cell. Most are wired in series and are 3 cell packs, making the total charged voltage 12.60V or down to 9V when they care considered drained (and should never be drained below that, meaning 3V per cell). None of this stuff do you really need to know. Just buy an 8AA holder (most will be in series but just ask the clerk for help) from Radio Shack. Take your alligator clips that the charger comes with for the charging side (not the alligator clips meant for the charger power supply side which also have a DC power plug at the other end that plugs into the charger to power it) and connect them to the two wire leads (or the 9V connector some have on top of them) and the pack is ready to be charged once you set it up properly. After that it's just charge without ever really having to change anything.
Kered, on my 2250 3 cell lipos for the first charge I'll usualy set the charge rate to 250MA, meaning about 8 hours to charge. Second/third/etc conditioning charge I'll go .50 amps for about a 4 hour charge time. Don't drain at anything more than half an amp and note my notes for that in the other message above. Also, those packs you are buying are (?) I think meant for RC transmitters. If that's the case then make sure they still will take a 1C normal charge rate and also how many amps they can handle in discharge. There is a slight chance they are very low in C raitings and so not meant to handle even say an 8C discharge. Anything above say 5C do what I said above. Anything lower and you might want to lower your charge/discharge break in and normal charging amp rates to keep it easy on them. I bet they are at least 8C in discharge ability, though, which would be fine with the above suggestions listed before. And I've never heard of a lipo that couldn't take a normal healthy 1C charge rate but I'm just covering my behind here just in case with my suggestions.
Also, my prior message had numerous small errors here and there. For instance, I said charge at .5 volts or something when conditioning the lipos and of course I meant to say .5 amps. If anything ever doesn't sound right just ask, as I'm prone to making mistakes hammering these messages out fast without checking what I'm saying. For another example, I said 9.10 to 9.30V per cell is when I'd cut off the discharge. Of course I meant say 9.10 to 9.30 for total pack voltage, but really I should have just said somewhere in the 3.10 to 3.30 per cell volt range is when I'd stop the discharge to avoid a lipo cell dipping below 3V. This is just a precaution. In fact, one of the small lipo packs I was given says it can handle being drawn down to 2.75V per cell. Of course the standard most use is a limit of 3V per cell. Same with charging. There are some lipos now that can charge above 1C, but most still go by that rule of never above that to avoid problems and/or confusion. Much easier to do the math in your head by using 1C anyway.
Critterhunter
New member
Now that I've pretty much covered just about everything I know on Nimh, Nicad, and Lipo care in the various (3 or 4) threads I've all linked together here, I figured I'd cover a few other odds and ends. Namely, how to solder connections and dispose of batteries...
First, it's changing connectors are packs if you ever had to do that. It's most important with lipos but also a good idea for nimhs and nicads not to cut both wires at the same time when taking off a connector. What's happening is you are causing a short for an instant by cutting through both wires at the same time. This momentary short can be enough to cause a lipo to bloat, explode, or catch on fire. Always only cut one wire at a time and make sure you keep it isolated from the other until it's secured into the new plug. In fact, it's a good idea not to cut the other wire until the first one cut is installed properly into it's new plug.
For nimhs and nicads this is still a good idea but not as much of a risk. I say that only because I know of some old school nicad guys who to this day will drain a pack dead for cycling or trying to recover a bad pack by simply shorting the two wires together. I for one don't think this is a good idea at all because since there is no load (resistance) draining the pack down what you have there is a run away short. At the very least I'd expect the pack to get very hot and perhaps even worse things might happen. More than likely guys who still do this at least only do it with a pack that is very near fully discharged already. A fully charged pack would be a problem waiting to happen in IMHO.
For any of the three battery types it should be drawn down to dead before disposal if it's not going to be used anymore. For any of the three I'd suggest hitching them up to a car light bulb or a charger with a discharge function to draw them down. Most chargers though aren't going to let you draw a lipo below 3V per cell, so the car light bulb or some other load would be the best way to do that. Unlike normal care for a lipo, in this case you want it drawn down to zero volts just like a normal cycle would be for a nimh or nicad. So far as I know there are no risks involved in doing this to a lipo, other than the fact that you are for sure going to ruin it by draining it to zero volts (well below the 3V per cell that they should never be drained below in normal use). Just the same, I'd make sure the lipo or any of these packs is placed in a fire proof location like they should anyway with normal charging or discharging, such as in the middle of a cement floor in your garage or something. It's still a good idea to cover them with a clay flower pot or some other fire proof container when doing normal charging or draining, particularly if you can't keep an eye on it while things are being done.
Nimhs and nicads should be recycled at the proper place and not thrown into the garbage. Places like your local Radio Shack will take them for free, or your local city services probably has a location where they can be dropped off. So far as I know lipos do not need any special means of disposal and can be thrown out with the trash, PROVIDED they are drained dead. Throwing one out with any kind of a charge could cause a fire if the garbage truck compacts them as they normally do and causes a puncture or a short.
Even if you drain the lipo "dead" like described above, it's still a good idea to go one step further with them. This method can be used in place of draining them dead with a car light bulb but I don't trust it for that myself. I'd rather drain them dead on the light bulb and then go this one step further. This further step is to mix up a bucket of water and salt. The exact amount of salt per gallon of water escapes me at the moment but I'm sure you can easily find that information on the web. What you want to do is mix up the water and salt properly in a bucket. Next cut all the plugs off the lipo (REMEMBER! One wire at a time and keep them away from each other) and then put the lipo into the solution. Locate the bucket somewhere safe and fire proof just for added safety and let it sit for several days (I'd say at least 4 or 5).
The salt water solution will allow the lipo to conduct through the water, draining the charge (or last bit if you used a bulb to drain it) out of the pack so it's completely dead to the world with it's charge. Now, after doing that I hear (but have NOT confirmed this by checking) that you should then take something sharp and puncture the lipo WHILE it's still well under the water at the bottom of the bucket). Then leave it in there for a few more days. After that it can be thrown out in the regular trash I think I've read.
Now, make sure you confirm all my advice above because I'm going from memory here. In fact, I've got several bad lipos I plan to do this with today that I've accumulated over the last four years and will be looking this information up. What I find I'll post at least links to.
While on the subject, I figured I'd cover how to safely store your lipos. I use a metal box much like used for documents about the size of a bread box. If the box is not painted inside paint it with several coats of paint to insure there is no way a lipo can short to the metal. The box should not be sealed air tight because in case a lipo explodes or catches on fire you do not want the box to explode because it can not relieve the pressure. If the box feels air tight then you probably should drill a few vent holes on top of it where the escaping gases can go to avoid this.
If some type of battery does go nuclear on you then you don't want it also taking the other packs with it to the after life. To avoid this the box should be divided into several chambers to at least allow you to only have one or two in each chamber. Obviously you want to use something fire proof, and drywall just happens to be that (at least any drywall I've ever heard of). On most garbage days you'll often find somebody has thrown out a chunk of it from remodeling. Once you find some just cut (score) it into the proper lengths and break it cleanly off by holding that score mark over the edge of a table. If the drywall divers aren't snug in the box then use something to shim them, such as a small piece of meat tray foam, glue, etc. Just remember that whatever isn't fire proof is likely to catch on fire should something happen, so use that knowledge in deciding what you think you can get away with.
I've already covered how a lipo storage or sleep charge can be good for it's life, along with storing them in the refrigerator when not in use. I just put the metal box in there whenever I'm not using anything out of it. In fact, keeping them in the refrigerator is also a good thing most believe for nimhs or nicads, though for those there isn't really any sleep storage charge that most agree on. Most just say they shouldn't be stored dead to avoid reverse polarity where a cell can switch it's positive and negative poles.
As I've said many times like a broken record, USE ANY of the information I've provided AT YOUR OWN RISK! I don't claim to be an expert and might have something wrong. Also, many still disagree on proper care and feeding of the various battery types in several ways. From my reading and experience over the years I've pretty much settled on who and what I believe to be true or best. Others may have different opinions and I make no claim to being right in my choices.
First, it's changing connectors are packs if you ever had to do that. It's most important with lipos but also a good idea for nimhs and nicads not to cut both wires at the same time when taking off a connector. What's happening is you are causing a short for an instant by cutting through both wires at the same time. This momentary short can be enough to cause a lipo to bloat, explode, or catch on fire. Always only cut one wire at a time and make sure you keep it isolated from the other until it's secured into the new plug. In fact, it's a good idea not to cut the other wire until the first one cut is installed properly into it's new plug.
For nimhs and nicads this is still a good idea but not as much of a risk. I say that only because I know of some old school nicad guys who to this day will drain a pack dead for cycling or trying to recover a bad pack by simply shorting the two wires together. I for one don't think this is a good idea at all because since there is no load (resistance) draining the pack down what you have there is a run away short. At the very least I'd expect the pack to get very hot and perhaps even worse things might happen. More than likely guys who still do this at least only do it with a pack that is very near fully discharged already. A fully charged pack would be a problem waiting to happen in IMHO.
For any of the three battery types it should be drawn down to dead before disposal if it's not going to be used anymore. For any of the three I'd suggest hitching them up to a car light bulb or a charger with a discharge function to draw them down. Most chargers though aren't going to let you draw a lipo below 3V per cell, so the car light bulb or some other load would be the best way to do that. Unlike normal care for a lipo, in this case you want it drawn down to zero volts just like a normal cycle would be for a nimh or nicad. So far as I know there are no risks involved in doing this to a lipo, other than the fact that you are for sure going to ruin it by draining it to zero volts (well below the 3V per cell that they should never be drained below in normal use). Just the same, I'd make sure the lipo or any of these packs is placed in a fire proof location like they should anyway with normal charging or discharging, such as in the middle of a cement floor in your garage or something. It's still a good idea to cover them with a clay flower pot or some other fire proof container when doing normal charging or draining, particularly if you can't keep an eye on it while things are being done.
Nimhs and nicads should be recycled at the proper place and not thrown into the garbage. Places like your local Radio Shack will take them for free, or your local city services probably has a location where they can be dropped off. So far as I know lipos do not need any special means of disposal and can be thrown out with the trash, PROVIDED they are drained dead. Throwing one out with any kind of a charge could cause a fire if the garbage truck compacts them as they normally do and causes a puncture or a short.
Even if you drain the lipo "dead" like described above, it's still a good idea to go one step further with them. This method can be used in place of draining them dead with a car light bulb but I don't trust it for that myself. I'd rather drain them dead on the light bulb and then go this one step further. This further step is to mix up a bucket of water and salt. The exact amount of salt per gallon of water escapes me at the moment but I'm sure you can easily find that information on the web. What you want to do is mix up the water and salt properly in a bucket. Next cut all the plugs off the lipo (REMEMBER! One wire at a time and keep them away from each other) and then put the lipo into the solution. Locate the bucket somewhere safe and fire proof just for added safety and let it sit for several days (I'd say at least 4 or 5).
The salt water solution will allow the lipo to conduct through the water, draining the charge (or last bit if you used a bulb to drain it) out of the pack so it's completely dead to the world with it's charge. Now, after doing that I hear (but have NOT confirmed this by checking) that you should then take something sharp and puncture the lipo WHILE it's still well under the water at the bottom of the bucket). Then leave it in there for a few more days. After that it can be thrown out in the regular trash I think I've read.
Now, make sure you confirm all my advice above because I'm going from memory here. In fact, I've got several bad lipos I plan to do this with today that I've accumulated over the last four years and will be looking this information up. What I find I'll post at least links to.
While on the subject, I figured I'd cover how to safely store your lipos. I use a metal box much like used for documents about the size of a bread box. If the box is not painted inside paint it with several coats of paint to insure there is no way a lipo can short to the metal. The box should not be sealed air tight because in case a lipo explodes or catches on fire you do not want the box to explode because it can not relieve the pressure. If the box feels air tight then you probably should drill a few vent holes on top of it where the escaping gases can go to avoid this.
If some type of battery does go nuclear on you then you don't want it also taking the other packs with it to the after life. To avoid this the box should be divided into several chambers to at least allow you to only have one or two in each chamber. Obviously you want to use something fire proof, and drywall just happens to be that (at least any drywall I've ever heard of). On most garbage days you'll often find somebody has thrown out a chunk of it from remodeling. Once you find some just cut (score) it into the proper lengths and break it cleanly off by holding that score mark over the edge of a table. If the drywall divers aren't snug in the box then use something to shim them, such as a small piece of meat tray foam, glue, etc. Just remember that whatever isn't fire proof is likely to catch on fire should something happen, so use that knowledge in deciding what you think you can get away with.
I've already covered how a lipo storage or sleep charge can be good for it's life, along with storing them in the refrigerator when not in use. I just put the metal box in there whenever I'm not using anything out of it. In fact, keeping them in the refrigerator is also a good thing most believe for nimhs or nicads, though for those there isn't really any sleep storage charge that most agree on. Most just say they shouldn't be stored dead to avoid reverse polarity where a cell can switch it's positive and negative poles.
As I've said many times like a broken record, USE ANY of the information I've provided AT YOUR OWN RISK! I don't claim to be an expert and might have something wrong. Also, many still disagree on proper care and feeding of the various battery types in several ways. From my reading and experience over the years I've pretty much settled on who and what I believe to be true or best. Others may have different opinions and I make no claim to being right in my choices.
Critterhunter
New member
The replacement of the solar charged security motion light that came with a dud battery a year ago was a success. It's now lighting up as it should at night when it detects motion and so alerts me to any activity in my yard or driveway. With that done I figured it was time to tackle the solar charged garden lights I have. Come morning while still dark only one light is still on.
I took them apart and found that they had a 1 cell AA 600ma Nicad in them. As I suspected there is no charge circuit. Nicads can put up with a very low and constant trickle charge (which is all the little solar panel can supply anyway) even when fully charged. The only little circuit inside the light consists of a transistor, a few resistors, and probably a diode (didn't look close) to switch from "charge" to "discharge" when the light sensor thinks it's dark outside.
I'm cycling the cells (each by themselves because I have no way to tell which ones might be good or bad yet) with the Accucel 6. I'm charging them at .5 amps and draining at .5 amps 5 times a piece with the automatic cycle function on the charger. This function will use whatever you have your charge amp rate set at and also your discharge amp rate that are separate features in the nimh or nicad menus. You can also select if you want it to first charge or discharge the pack and then repeat that cycle for whatever number of times you have set it for. I just started this process this morning on the first cell and it's first charge was only about 200ma after being drained dead. Obviously that's not very good at all, and if exercising it doesn't erase whatever memory it has or expand it's capacity to at least 600ma or above like it's rated at then I'll have to replace it.
Also, something like this that just has a holder and the cell is not soldered in place is a good time to use a little dielectric (spark plug boot grease) on them. Smear just a thin coat on both the battery ends and the holder contacts. That will prevent oxide from building up and causing a short or at the very least resistance. Whenever you have a device where the cells aren't being removed and re-inserted on a regular basis this is a good idea because the action of removing/replacing them would help to keep the contacts clean. Otherwise the grease will do that. This is a special grease that will protect them but still allow electric current to pass through it. Do not put it on thick because too much can stop the flow of electricity.
I was just up at Harbor Tool & Freight looking around and sure enough they've got two chargers that will do nimhs or nicads. One is like $15 and is a fast charger. The other is like $12 and is a slow charger. I would opt for that one if buying one of those. On the back of the package it lists what capacity packs will take how many hours to charge. Note that compared to the fast charger.
They also have nimh and nicad batteries fairly cheap. I think all the nicads are lower capacity than the nimhs there, but that's not always the case at other places. Remember, if you are replacing a nimh or nicad in a device make sure to use the same type with at least the same or higher capacity. Mixing battery types could cause a fire or something as a lot of cheap nicad devices don't have a charge circuit (like my solar motion light or solar garden lights) but rather just keep outputting a constant trickle charge when sunlight is present. Many flashlights that plug into your wall to keep them constantly charged are the same way and for that reason use nicads. So far as I know nimhs still don't like being fed a constant trickle charge once they reach peak.
The chargers they have will do up to 4 AA or AAAs, 2 9v, or 2 (or 4?) Cs or Ds. If anybody doesn't want to go the route of the Accucel 6 and keep things as simple as possible for you then I'd pick one of these chargers up. You might want to get both. Use the slow charger most of the time and the fast charger only once in a while when in a hurry.
If I can't recover the nicads for my solar garden lights then I see Harbor Freight has 700ma AA nicads for like $5 for a 4 pack. They also have 2200ma AA nimhs for like $8 in a four pack, which is a decent (and probably the lowest you should go) capacity that should work for detectors fine probably. On the other hand, I think Sears has 2200 or maybe 2500 or 2600 (maybe even a higher capacity now) Energizer Nimhs for like I think $14 for an 8 pack. I'd go with the highest capacity I could find.
I took them apart and found that they had a 1 cell AA 600ma Nicad in them. As I suspected there is no charge circuit. Nicads can put up with a very low and constant trickle charge (which is all the little solar panel can supply anyway) even when fully charged. The only little circuit inside the light consists of a transistor, a few resistors, and probably a diode (didn't look close) to switch from "charge" to "discharge" when the light sensor thinks it's dark outside.
I'm cycling the cells (each by themselves because I have no way to tell which ones might be good or bad yet) with the Accucel 6. I'm charging them at .5 amps and draining at .5 amps 5 times a piece with the automatic cycle function on the charger. This function will use whatever you have your charge amp rate set at and also your discharge amp rate that are separate features in the nimh or nicad menus. You can also select if you want it to first charge or discharge the pack and then repeat that cycle for whatever number of times you have set it for. I just started this process this morning on the first cell and it's first charge was only about 200ma after being drained dead. Obviously that's not very good at all, and if exercising it doesn't erase whatever memory it has or expand it's capacity to at least 600ma or above like it's rated at then I'll have to replace it.
Also, something like this that just has a holder and the cell is not soldered in place is a good time to use a little dielectric (spark plug boot grease) on them. Smear just a thin coat on both the battery ends and the holder contacts. That will prevent oxide from building up and causing a short or at the very least resistance. Whenever you have a device where the cells aren't being removed and re-inserted on a regular basis this is a good idea because the action of removing/replacing them would help to keep the contacts clean. Otherwise the grease will do that. This is a special grease that will protect them but still allow electric current to pass through it. Do not put it on thick because too much can stop the flow of electricity.
I was just up at Harbor Tool & Freight looking around and sure enough they've got two chargers that will do nimhs or nicads. One is like $15 and is a fast charger. The other is like $12 and is a slow charger. I would opt for that one if buying one of those. On the back of the package it lists what capacity packs will take how many hours to charge. Note that compared to the fast charger.
They also have nimh and nicad batteries fairly cheap. I think all the nicads are lower capacity than the nimhs there, but that's not always the case at other places. Remember, if you are replacing a nimh or nicad in a device make sure to use the same type with at least the same or higher capacity. Mixing battery types could cause a fire or something as a lot of cheap nicad devices don't have a charge circuit (like my solar motion light or solar garden lights) but rather just keep outputting a constant trickle charge when sunlight is present. Many flashlights that plug into your wall to keep them constantly charged are the same way and for that reason use nicads. So far as I know nimhs still don't like being fed a constant trickle charge once they reach peak.
The chargers they have will do up to 4 AA or AAAs, 2 9v, or 2 (or 4?) Cs or Ds. If anybody doesn't want to go the route of the Accucel 6 and keep things as simple as possible for you then I'd pick one of these chargers up. You might want to get both. Use the slow charger most of the time and the fast charger only once in a while when in a hurry.
If I can't recover the nicads for my solar garden lights then I see Harbor Freight has 700ma AA nicads for like $5 for a 4 pack. They also have 2200ma AA nimhs for like $8 in a four pack, which is a decent (and probably the lowest you should go) capacity that should work for detectors fine probably. On the other hand, I think Sears has 2200 or maybe 2500 or 2600 (maybe even a higher capacity now) Energizer Nimhs for like I think $14 for an 8 pack. I'd go with the highest capacity I could find.
Thanks, that is helpful.
now that I am awa there is more that to charging batteries than just charging batteries I took a look at my little radio (Kaito fullband portable). It came with 1300 mah rechargables. I plled out the maunal today and it gave a formula for charging the batteries. It has a 100ma charger so the formula was 1300/100ma=hours to charge. so if I read it right. When these 1300mah batteries are dead I should sharge them for 13hours with the 100ma charger... is that correct?
If it is... what to do if a battery isn't flat dead but is just below the required level to run the detector correctly... like the V3 battery needs to be putting out 8.5v or more. I have no idea where the SE and Etrac batteries need to be to properly run the detectors but I am going to check the voltage on my packs before and after charging... also, how do I completely discharge a Explorer or ET rechargable battery pack. I think I read earlier that I need to do that now and then.
Thanks. I am going to look for an Accucel 6 tomorrow and if I don't find one at Best Buy (I have to go there anyway) I will order one online.
Julien
now that I am awa there is more that to charging batteries than just charging batteries I took a look at my little radio (Kaito fullband portable). It came with 1300 mah rechargables. I plled out the maunal today and it gave a formula for charging the batteries. It has a 100ma charger so the formula was 1300/100ma=hours to charge. so if I read it right. When these 1300mah batteries are dead I should sharge them for 13hours with the 100ma charger... is that correct?
If it is... what to do if a battery isn't flat dead but is just below the required level to run the detector correctly... like the V3 battery needs to be putting out 8.5v or more. I have no idea where the SE and Etrac batteries need to be to properly run the detectors but I am going to check the voltage on my packs before and after charging... also, how do I completely discharge a Explorer or ET rechargable battery pack. I think I read earlier that I need to do that now and then.
Thanks. I am going to look for an Accucel 6 tomorrow and if I don't find one at Best Buy (I have to go there anyway) I will order one online.
Julien
Your Calculation is correct jbow, 13 hours is a long time. with the accucel you should be able to charge in an hour at 1.3amp(1300ma)as long as they don't get too warm. Although using the 100ma charger once in a while is good for them. My etrac cuts off at 8.65v on the stock 1600mah battery. To charge and discharge i made up a holder, the alligator clips clip to the protruding screws the battery slots in and the springs touch the terminals(its a hash job but a prototype to check if it works, and works fine, when i get a minute I'll make a proper one)
A few photos to let you know what adapters/holders i use for almost 99% of my charging needs. the red square shaped connector is a dean connector and from there i connect any of the others i have according to the battery or cells i wish to charge. Also a photo of the PC power unit i adapted to power the accucel.
hope this helps, if you need more just let me know as i can only post 6 pics at a time(there are some videos on youtube, just type in Accucel-6)
ps. to discharge the etrac battery completely just clip a 12v bulb onto the screw points on the hash job of a holder
A few photos to let you know what adapters/holders i use for almost 99% of my charging needs. the red square shaped connector is a dean connector and from there i connect any of the others i have according to the battery or cells i wish to charge. Also a photo of the PC power unit i adapted to power the accucel.
hope this helps, if you need more just let me know as i can only post 6 pics at a time(there are some videos on youtube, just type in Accucel-6)
ps. to discharge the etrac battery completely just clip a 12v bulb onto the screw points on the hash job of a holder