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Does the GB make sense ?

sling

New member
As I use my vaquero if the GB is negative the detector become unstable but never if its positive even if i turn it way positive.
I can turn up the sensitivity to maximum if i have way positive set up.So its basicly the same with the cibola because the C has positively fixed GB.I think on the most soil you can get as good depth with the cibola than with the Vaquero.

Other question:
What coil is the best to get really small items?
I think its 10" elliptical and 575 but correct me if im wrong because its only a guess.
 
The following is from an article on my website by George Payne about preset versus adjustable ground balance. It's a little technical but explains why manual ground balanced detectors are the better choice. George developed most of the features found on modern detectors, including ground balance, so you can pretty well take what he says about anything related to metal detectors to the bank :).

<b><i>A pure ground is a soil condition that reacts like it was pure ferrite. In other words a perfect magnetic condition where no electrical conduction (eddy currents) takes place. We can think of this as a soil that produces a signal in the detector with zero phase shift relative to the transmitted signal. This is considered our reference signal of zero phase to which all other signals can be referenced to. Of course the only real life object that produces this type of signal is pure ferrite. So ferrite becomes our reference target and produces what we call a pure "X" reactive signal.

Of course real ground conditions do not behave like pure ferrite. When subjected to a detectors magnetic field small currents begin to flow in the soil. This will cause the soil signal to be displaced slightly from that of pure ferrite. We call this difference a phase shift and define it to have an angle in degrees negative relative to pure ferrite. In addition, this phase shift produces a new signal in the detector which we call the "R" component signal. We can carry this analysis one more step. Using Trigonometry the ratio of the X signal to the R signal can be shown to be the actual measured phase of the ground.

All grounds have varying amounts of magnetic and conductive properties. Therefore, the ratio of the X or magnetic signal and R, the conductive signal, will vary from one location to another. However, the phase produced by this characteristic will always be negative relative to the zero phase of pure ferrite.

From my experience most grounds produce a phase that falls somewhere between zero (ferrite) and a -5 degrees. Some highly magnetic soils can have a phase that is quite low, but it can never be zero. Once the phase exceeds several degrees the ground characteristics begin to fall into an area where it becomes more saline. This doesn't mean that its not magnetic. Its just that the R or conductive component of the ground becomes stronger in relation to the magnetic portion. Thus the phase becomes greater.

The manual ground adjustment works in this manner: When you position the “Ground Adjust” control to the phase of the target, in this case the ground, any up or down motion of the coil does not produce a corresponding change in the audio volume. For example, when you position the control to zero phase, and then move a piece of ferrite around near the coil, the audio volume will not change. In other words you have balanced out to the ferrite. However, if you now lower the coil to real ground the audio will increase in volume. Of course this indicates that you are not balanced to the ground. As you begin to turn the control counter clock wise the ground adjust control phase changes from zero to a more negative amount. Once you have reached the point of “ground balance” the control and ground phases match. Of course as the coil is moved to various locations the ground phase changes slightly and you must readjust the control for a neutral reaction. As you can see there is no one control phase position that matches every condition since the ground phase varies from one location to another.

The introduction of the Motion detector solved this problem.....sort of. In a Motion detector design you can calibrate the “fixed” ground adjust control phase to approximately +0.5 degrees and set the audio threshold for silent operation. If that is done the detector will appear not to respond to the ground. In reality it is responding. Its just that you don’t hear it since all ground reactions cause the audio to decrease in volume.

And since the audio is already silent you don’t hear anything. Remember I said that all real targets, which includes the ground, have a phase between zero and some negative value. The preset ground control phase of +0.5 degrees is in a location where no real targets ever exist. Therefore, you never have a condition where you are balanced to anything, least of all the ground. As you move the coil over the ground, the internal detector signals are continually being driven negative. Any weak positive target signal is easily over-ridden by the huge negative ground signal. Of course, if the target is close enough to the coil its positive signal can override the negative ground signal and you will hear the reaction in the audio. The greater the phase and strength of the negative ground signal the more it will mask the positive target signals. A manual ground balance design would avoid this since the operator can adjust the control for a (near) neutral reaction on the ground.

For fixed machines the phase error between the internal “ground preset balance” and the actual ground condition can be much more than “slight”. The internal preset is calibrated for +0.5 degrees. This is in an area where a real ground phase never occurs. The actual ground phase may be -2 or -3 degrees “negative“. That’s a huge difference, maybe 2.5 to 3.5 degrees. This much phase error will in effect cutoff several inches of detection depth.

When fixed ground balance (motion) machines first came out I was opposed to using this technique. I knew it was in some ways a trick into fooling the customer that there was no ground balance. The control was simply a fixed internal adjustment. However, the pressure to compete in the market place was enormous. So, I eventually gave up the argument and designed a detector using a fixed ground balance, the “Big Bud”.

The standard loop size is the best size to use on a fixed GB detector since it was the coil most likely to which the detector was designed. I took extra care to try to insure that the other loop sizes meet the same characteristics as that of the standard coil. It is also true that larger coils pickup the ground more than smaller coils. So any phase errors due to a detector-coil mismatch will make this problem worse. The only sure way to get around this is by using a detector with a GB mode and a manual ground balance.</i></b>
 
so the mainpoint is the pozitiv better than neutral even if is way pozitive.it works for me anyway.And i think you hardly ever find a soil where the cibola isnt pozitive!actually with the pinpoint you could check the gb set up of the cibola.And youll see its pozitive.
 
VERY INTERESTING......
 
normally with a negative setting the detector will become noisy over many areas. With a positive setting it removes that problem. And the loss of depth with a setting that is too positive can be pretty minimal in many cases. So while I agree that manual is the best way to go, for many Fixed GB isn't necessarily all that bad and eliminates the problem of setting the GB incorrectly.
 
not certain what you mean. What I said was that a positive GB is O.K. even if it is a little too positive. Had nothing really to do with target depth other than the fact that there can be a slight loss of depth. Bottom line, if you want the best performance all the time use a detector with Manual GB.
 
you just wrote there is a minimal depth loss when the setting too positive.
i agreed because if i turn the gb the max pozitive i get less even in airtest but the unit isnt unstable.
so summary the slightly pozitive might the best.
 
I currently own a Cobola and I wanted to post my own observations on the subject. I live in central Pennsylvania, own may other detectors and have been detecting for 25+ years. At least were I live, any detector only gets about HALF of the depth in the ground as opposed to an air test. From what I read, it's probably due the fact that the detection patterns gets distorted a little as the coil is brought toward the ground. Needless to say, I have been disappointed more than once to get a new detector only to find out that a Minnie ball that will air test at 13+ inches can only be found in the ground at 6". Where I live the ground is NOT all that bad. I must say, the Cibola goes JUST AS DEEP as my Nautilus and my X5, even with them ground balanced properly.

Now.. try this test: Get your Cibola and air test a target (I used a .44 pistol cartridge). Note the distance that you can detect the target. Next, roll up a ball of aluminum foil and set it on top of your coil, maybe not directly on the center but still on the coil.
This would represent conductive ground. Try your test again. You will find that there is not much difference. You can even try something much more conductive. In my case, a 10 pound jar of Minnie balls next to the coil. Still, not much more difference. It's the CHANGE in the amplitude and phase shift. I believe that Tesoro uses a 2 pole filter in their designs (maybe we can get a Tesoro engineer to chime in here, you guys do read the forums don't you??).

To prove my point, find an old red clay brick and put a nickle under it. If you disc out the brick (most red clay bricks are conductive), you will NEVER find the nickel as you sweep the coil.
The detector sees the phase change of the brick. If you cover your coil with bricks, your detector will easily find a nickel moved past the bricks.. Again, it's the phase shift CHANGE that the detector sees.
There are too many other factors that should be taken into account besides worrying too much about ground balance. Knowing you machine being one of them, the detection pattern in the ground, level of discrimination, sweep speed, and most of all, a little research. I will put this little Cibola up against most detectors costing twice as much, and the end results are very similar.

Don
 
Good point, Don. I compare GBing the ground to putting on a pair of sunglasses. You may see a little easier, but you can still see without them. I tried the GBing thing on my test garden. It seems the TID may be a little more stable, but I didn't see any difference in depth. My opinion is that it is an adjustable filter that filters minerals in the ground from being received and IDed making it easier for the circuit to ID otherwise deeper targets that would appear hazy to the receiver. Filters (disc) are suppose to cause lose of depth.

To me, manual periodic GBing is a pain in the #$@. If true, I don't need the aggravation for that ever elusive extra inch.
 
everyone says the Cortes and Deleon get the same depth? Cortes (manual GB) and Deleon (preset GB) has been compared to have the same electronics, same depth, with only more screen info, SUM feature, back light, notch feature and GB.

Is the Cortes really a better machine in operation or just better in bells and whistles?
 
n/t
 
well i think the gb make a little different what we cant see because we only dig the target out without we could know the depth.the fixed gb got to be pozitive and if is way pozitive for the actual soil just make a little less depth.I ment it doesnt make too much sense to have manual GB except when the soil is too mild than your fixed gb gonna be negative and you wont be able to use it!!!
 
Adjustable GB makes a difference in depth only if the GB is way off. I don't know why but a slight positive GB is deeper. How much deeper is debatable.

The thing with depth is more the power and quality of the unit itself than the GB. The design of the coil (antenna) is of supreme importance. The GB just puts the frosting on the cake, so ta speak.

As a rule the smaller the coil the more sensitive to small objects. The most sensitive would be the 5.75.

Myron
 
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