I keep reading mixed messages on this and am curious as to the facts and what is the difference between multi-frequency and three frequency technology. Does multi-frequency mean two or more frequencies simultaneously while a number of frequencies like three for instance mean something else? Thanks,Ray.....
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Does anyone know if the V3 is a true Multi-frequency machine or is it a three frequency machine?
- Thread starter Ray-Mo.
- Start date
earthmansurfer
Active member
I'll jump in here as Tom has answered this question for me before as well as reminded me on a couple of occasions! I have a V3i and E-Trac btw.
The Minelab's and Fisher CZ line are true multi frequency technology (not sure if that is all the models). The frequencies are combined. In that a gain is made as far as in mineralized soil penetration, but sensitivity to see into iron might be the drawback. Not sure if that is why E-Tracs have trouble with iron falsing and CZ's aren't known to be very good in iron. The E-Trac seems to do pretty well in iron though, but Tom has said before, I believe the F75LTD and such, are much better. (Though on coins I don't know if that is always true.)
The V3i never combines it's frequencies, they are kept separate. It merely searches for the best response (under "best data") or the two best frequency response (when running "correlate" - which is great in iron or mineralized soil.) So, Tom said this is not a "true multi frequency platform" as the frequencies remain separate.
Hope that was helpful, sure someone like Tom can add more,
Albert
edit - oops, thought I was at another forum. I was talking about Tom Dankowski.
The Minelab's and Fisher CZ line are true multi frequency technology (not sure if that is all the models). The frequencies are combined. In that a gain is made as far as in mineralized soil penetration, but sensitivity to see into iron might be the drawback. Not sure if that is why E-Tracs have trouble with iron falsing and CZ's aren't known to be very good in iron. The E-Trac seems to do pretty well in iron though, but Tom has said before, I believe the F75LTD and such, are much better. (Though on coins I don't know if that is always true.)
The V3i never combines it's frequencies, they are kept separate. It merely searches for the best response (under "best data") or the two best frequency response (when running "correlate" - which is great in iron or mineralized soil.) So, Tom said this is not a "true multi frequency platform" as the frequencies remain separate.
Hope that was helpful, sure someone like Tom can add more,
Albert
edit - oops, thought I was at another forum. I was talking about Tom Dankowski.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
I think the confusion is in the terminology, White's goes into detail on how the frequencies work here: Three frequencies, why not 28? http://media.whiteselectronics.com/manuals/V3%20Manuals/spectra_v3i_instruction_manual.pdf
White's said: Spectra V3i has three independent processing channels; it is a true 3-frequency detector.
They also said: This is where a multi-frequency detector such as the Spectra V3i really shines. V3i transmits at 2.5kHz, 7.5kHz, and 22.5kHz, making it simultaneously
White's said: Spectra V3i has three independent processing channels; it is a true 3-frequency detector.
They also said: This is where a multi-frequency detector such as the Spectra V3i really shines. V3i transmits at 2.5kHz, 7.5kHz, and 22.5kHz, making it simultaneously
I will let Carl answer the post.
I will say, Minelab is also a 3 frequency machine. Done a little differently than ours but still 3 frequency. They got sued in England and lost for their false advertising on 17 or 28 frequencies.
I'm not starting a war again, and will the experts explain.
I will say, Minelab is also a 3 frequency machine. Done a little differently than ours but still 3 frequency. They got sued in England and lost for their false advertising on 17 or 28 frequencies.
I'm not starting a war again, and will the experts explain.
Carl-NC
Active member
CZ, Sovereign, Explorer, Etrac, DFX, and V3 are all multifrequency. All of them transmit a digital waveform; the easiest is the CZ which uses a simple 5kHz square wave and derives a weaker 15kHz 3rd harmonic from it, so it's a 2F detector. The DFX is also a 2F detector but uses a complex digital waveform to equalize the TX signal strengths. The V3 is similar to the DFX but is a 3F detector. All these -- CZ, DFX, and V3 -- utilize full-wave demods typical in so-called "frequency-domain" detectors.
The Sovereign also transmits a digital waveform but it alternates between a single 3.125kHz square wave and 8 cycles of 25kHz. Therefore, despite all the marketing claims to the contrary, it is a 2F detector. Unlike the CZ/DFX/V3 detectors, the Sov utilizes sampling methods more akin to how PI detectors work, so some people like to think of it as a "time-domain" detector. Regardless of the details of the signal processing, it has a high frequency channel, a low frequency channel, and then a third "low/high" channel which is still sampled from the low frequency signal.
The Explorer uses the exact same TX waveform as the Sovereign, so even though I've never dug into its operation the TX waveform clearly says it's a 2F detector; the "28 frequencies" is marketing bunk. I suspect the ETrac is the same.
All these detectors continuously transmit and receive and process 2 or 3 frequencies, so they are all multi-frequency. There are some detectors which can transmit/receive/process multiple frequencies but are not "multi-frequency." The Xterras and the Eureka come to mind; they can switch between radically different frequencies, but can't run them simultaneously.
- Carl
The Sovereign also transmits a digital waveform but it alternates between a single 3.125kHz square wave and 8 cycles of 25kHz. Therefore, despite all the marketing claims to the contrary, it is a 2F detector. Unlike the CZ/DFX/V3 detectors, the Sov utilizes sampling methods more akin to how PI detectors work, so some people like to think of it as a "time-domain" detector. Regardless of the details of the signal processing, it has a high frequency channel, a low frequency channel, and then a third "low/high" channel which is still sampled from the low frequency signal.
The Explorer uses the exact same TX waveform as the Sovereign, so even though I've never dug into its operation the TX waveform clearly says it's a 2F detector; the "28 frequencies" is marketing bunk. I suspect the ETrac is the same.
All these detectors continuously transmit and receive and process 2 or 3 frequencies, so they are all multi-frequency. There are some detectors which can transmit/receive/process multiple frequencies but are not "multi-frequency." The Xterras and the Eureka come to mind; they can switch between radically different frequencies, but can't run them simultaneously.
- Carl
earthmansurfer
Active member
I'm confused. Yes, they are all mult-frequencies in the sense that they are transmitting more than one frequency but I thought the difference was that the E-Trac, Explorer and CZ's were combining the 2 or 3 frequencies they transmit and the V3i was keeping them separate? I think like Larry said, this is a question of terminology. How could the V3i be combining frequencies if there is "best data" and "correlate" options. It seems to me right there that the frequencies are not combined. And, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, just trying to define the terminology and function in a little easier to understand English.
Rob - Do you really always have to be so hard in your words? "Bogus" implies shammy, almost intentionally deceitful or the like. My intention is nothing like that. You are making it seem like there is an ulterior motive from me (or whomever you were directing the bogus comment against) with your comments, use of bold, underlining, etc. So, when you say "I'm not starting a war again", well, it sort of looks like you are.
Sincerely,
Albert
Rob - Do you really always have to be so hard in your words? "Bogus" implies shammy, almost intentionally deceitful or the like. My intention is nothing like that. You are making it seem like there is an ulterior motive from me (or whomever you were directing the bogus comment against) with your comments, use of bold, underlining, etc. So, when you say "I'm not starting a war again", well, it sort of looks like you are.
Sincerely,
Albert
Albert, get over it. The bogus refers to the claim of 17 or 28 frequencies. They were sued and lost on the issue, read the post again no underlines or bold.
The question about multi frequency was asked, and Carl answered it. All my comments don't refer to you. Quit commenting on my writing style. I use underlining and bold in all my positive posts also. [attachment 219938 Untitled-1.jpg]
The question about multi frequency was asked, and Carl answered it. All my comments don't refer to you. Quit commenting on my writing style. I use underlining and bold in all my positive posts also. [attachment 219938 Untitled-1.jpg]
triplehooked
Member
Come on Rob, say something nice about Albert's post and underline it.... 
Then we can all move on to talking about the V3i. You guys all have great info on the V3i, and I appreciate it, but if I want to bicker I'll talk with the wife. 
Carl, thanks for the info. But I have to call you out. You suspect that the Etrac operates the same as the Explorer?? I'm sure you Whites fellas have had a few minelabs apart to check out competition... I know I would. I never got the 20,000 freq. thing with ML, always sounded like a gimmick.
Then we can all move on to talking about the V3i. You guys all have great info on the V3i, and I appreciate it, but if I want to bicker I'll talk with the wife. Carl, thanks for the info. But I have to call you out. You suspect that the Etrac operates the same as the Explorer?? I'm sure you Whites fellas have had a few minelabs apart to check out competition... I know I would. I never got the 20,000 freq. thing with ML, always sounded like a gimmick.The transmit signal has the 3 frequencies combined. The return signal also has the 3 frequencies combined (physics). The return signal is then split into the 3 frequencies with the demodulation. It doesn't really matter - but that is how we do it. They are not separate - they are separated.
When running in single frequency, only one frequency is running though. Different transmit waveform.
When running in single frequency, only one frequency is running though. Different transmit waveform.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
I never go to a single frequency because the display shows all three frequencies being used on a single target and is full of useful information that I would not get in single frequency mode. But it is there if you wanted it.
triplehooked
Member
Don't bother with reverse engineering Carl, you folks have a top notch machine with the Spectra series, no doubt. I just had to pick on ya some. I think the three freq. cover the spectrum quite well (yeah, pun intended), and the user interface of White's machines in general allow for quick acclimatization in varied situations. I'm a couple months out yet from a V3i purchase, but my XLT has been very impressive in discrimination, and I look forward to the upgrade. Larry, have you noticed any increase in depth when switching between the 2.5 freq. (silver hunting obviously) and mult. freq.? I would assume no unless coin shooting is not your forte'. I would probably stay in mult. freq. while coin shooting any ways just to make sure I'm not passing up any small gold. Just curious.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
As in my response to Ray, I hunt three frequency all the time just because I would lose too much information for a possible small gain in depth. Yep, old coins are my #1 target, I have been hunting relics lately because I found a honey hole but it is just about out of honey. 
Carl-NC
Active member
Albert,
All the MF detectors I mentioned have common design features:
1) a transmit signal that combines 2 or 3 frequencies
2) a received signal that has also has combined frequency information
3) the received signal is then separated into individual frequency "channels"
4) each channel has demods that converts the individual frequency to a baseband signal
5) the resulting baseband signals are analyzed in some manner to produce the target response
What makes a detector multi-frequency is the ability to simultaneously operate with 2 or more frequencies, and all those models do that. They all separate the composite received signal into individual frequency channels, and they all re-combine the individual channel information to produce target information. The DFX and V3 differ from the other models in that you can select how the frequency info is combined (Best Data or Correlate), and the V3 further lets you see the individual frequency responses.
- Carl
All the MF detectors I mentioned have common design features:
1) a transmit signal that combines 2 or 3 frequencies
2) a received signal that has also has combined frequency information
3) the received signal is then separated into individual frequency "channels"
4) each channel has demods that converts the individual frequency to a baseband signal
5) the resulting baseband signals are analyzed in some manner to produce the target response
What makes a detector multi-frequency is the ability to simultaneously operate with 2 or more frequencies, and all those models do that. They all separate the composite received signal into individual frequency channels, and they all re-combine the individual channel information to produce target information. The DFX and V3 differ from the other models in that you can select how the frequency info is combined (Best Data or Correlate), and the V3 further lets you see the individual frequency responses.
- Carl
earthmansurfer
Active member
Thanks for that Reply Carl. That is really useful to know and I'll share it with those who thought otherwise. What I posted before was what I was told and now I have to try the V3i out again on my iron mineralized site. I'm looking forward to that. Again many thanks, when you or Anne make your presence here it is really appreciated. It is always nice to see engineers/reps from companies on the forums.
Sorry triplehooked, I got to get past the past. I don't intend to bicker. Rob - I don't like Minelab's claims anymore than the next guy nor there secretive ways, and sorry if I made you out wrong here. But Triplehooked had a nice suggestion for you.
, kidding.
All the best,
Albert
Sorry triplehooked, I got to get past the past. I don't intend to bicker. Rob - I don't like Minelab's claims anymore than the next guy nor there secretive ways, and sorry if I made you out wrong here. But Triplehooked had a nice suggestion for you.
, kidding.All the best,
Albert
mgtmadness
Member
White's should have a Reverse Engineering Team. Secret of course. I will be the first inconspicuous buyer and send you metal detectors 
Ytcoinshooter
Well-known member
This topic was a real good read. Much thanks to the contributors, very good information and discussion of cross platforms. I had the DFX, I currently use the V3i, CZ20 and Sovereign GT( and a few others ).So this discussion was very enlightening!
HH-Bruce
HH-Bruce