Deus for gold and silver in Aluminum trash

[dig4it]

Anyone have any programs to help find silver coins and possibly gold jewelry in high aluminum trash areas? I have a new detector with 3.2 program and 11" coil. I have rather limited detecting experience Thanks

 

[Sleepyjim]

I might be mistaken but Gold will come up in the Alum range of numbers unless nuggetshooting then using the Goldfield program which is All Metal.

There are some threads by CZ and Speedy that really will help you, also the 4Khz freq threads are real good learning.....

Jim

 

[jspeedy]

My suggestion to you is use one of our 4KHz programs to get you started on the coins. Being that you are new to the Deus hunting for gold in trashy areas will be a daunting task. If you really want to get started on gold, then try some newer soccer fields and use Andy's gold program. This will help you to identify and recognize different types of trash without having to dig 100+ holes. Yes, less chances of gold but you will learn the Deus and eventually you will be confident and can move to the trashy sites.
HH

 

[CZconnoisseur]

Anyone have any programs to help find silver coins and possibly gold jewelry in high aluminum trash areas? I have a new detector with 3.2 program and 11" coil. I have rather limited detecting experience Thanks

Good luck with the aluminum - 4 kHz seems especially sensitive to aluminum trash, most notably the cast aluminum bits buried at depth. Are we talking can slaw trash, pulltabs, cast aluminum, etc? The higher frequencies will help separate every target in trashy areas at the slight cost of depth with all other parameters being equal. I would think 8 or 12 kHz would be a good starting point if you are in a trashy area - you get decent depth with either frequency with great separation, but if there's a lot of bottlecaps you'll want to either use higher silencer settings or go to 4 kHz which almost always knocks out the caps - or at least it will make them more recognizable.

I would start with finding the silver first, then you can come back through with lower notch settings. Try this program...I use it for deep silver and deep Wheats along the sidewalks in the neighborhood. Reactivity at "2" will solidly hit a dime at 9 inches while reactivity at "3" will max out at 7.5" (at least in my soil)

4 kHz (which means TX = 3)
Silencer = 0
Reactivity = 2 or 3
Iron Vol = 0
Sens = 88
Notch = 00-60 and 93-99
Audio Response = 3
Overload = 2

90% silver dimes will ID as low as "72" in this program but more likely will register "75-77". Indian cents can ID as low as "55" and occasionally as high as "66" - just depends on the copper content which was variable at the time. Some of the older Wheats ring up true at "61-62" and other newer Wheats will register around 66-72, sometimes as high as "74". A 90% silver half will peg out at "89-90" almost every time. Always allow a little bit of downward -AND- upward VDI migration for desired targets since iron can both decrease and increase the VDI of a non-ferrous target. There are other factors that influence VDI readings of supposedly uniform U.S. coins, but keep this in mind when setting up your notches and breakpoints, if applicable. You can set one tone for copper coins, like from "60-74" and from "75-90" you can use a higher tone to more quickly identify what's under your coil.

I use full tones, but many people like to have tone breakpoints - personal preferences and flexibility are what make the Deus such an outstanding machine! Have fun and HH!

 

[Portagee Kawika]

I like where CZ is going with this, but I'm going to offer some slightly different opinions just to muddy things up a bit: namely, I'd never notch up to 60. You WILL lose gold that way, and not just chain links and earring studs either. 60 will lose rings. I'd dial that down to 35 or 40. This will still knock out the small aluminum, and the big aluminum is easy enough to spot by raising the coil and/or pinpointing.

You're going to dig a lot of trash at first. Accept this, pay attention to it, and learn from it. If you notch high now, you'll just be walking over the same ground later with a lower notch anyway. I'd recommend 35 from the start. Take a few minutes to sweep some coins and hear the tones, and then go out and learn the hard lessons about trash early on. It's preferable to learning them later.

 

[jspeedy]

Using my settings, I don't dig aluminum nor bottle caps. Perhaps, I'm missing targets with my settings.

 

[samandnoah]

Hey CZ, quick clarification question for you. When you say Notch = 00 - 60, and don't specify the Disc, are you setting Disc = 0? Or is it really set to some value > 0?
Thx
Rich

 

[CZconnoisseur]

Hey CZ, quick clarification question for you. When you say Notch = 00 - 60, and don't specify the Disc, are you setting Disc = 0? Or is it really set to some value > 0?
Thx
Rich

I forgot to mention the Disc!!!

Usually run Disc at 2.0 since you will get a slight bit more depth at Disc = 2 vs Disc = 10. There's no point in "overdiscrimination" if 2-10 are already notched out!

 

[x99]

You don't have to use disk at all. Go to "menu" - "disk" - "expert", choose 3 (or more) tones and set the first break point to "0" and "100Hz". The second break point to "10" (or whatever you like) and "100Hz" again. Now check the Disk - it reseted automatically to "0". Set the 3rd tone to 603HZ and you emulated the disk (I at least hope it is different). You have to listen to the 100Hz noise, but it is OK for me.

I also use this technique instead of the notch function. When I experimented in the field a little bit, I discovered that the notch is (in some extreme situations) slowing the response down and masking good targets.

Don't use notch, use 100Hz .

 

[CZconnoisseur]

You don't have to use disk at all. Go to "menu" - "disk" - "expert", choose 3 (or more) tones and set the first break point to "0" and "100Hz". The second break point to "10" (or whatever you like) and "100Hz" again. Now check the Disk - it reseted automatically to "0". Set the 3rd tone to 603HZ and you emulated the disk (I at least hope it is different). You have to listen to the 100Hz noise, but it is OK for me.

I also use this technique instead of the notch function. When I experimented in the field a little bit, I discovered that the notch is (in some extreme situations) slowing the response down and masking good targets.

Don't use notch, use 100Hz .

I got cured from using breakpoints once v3.2 was released - too many tones and tone breaks to remember - and for me and my style of hunting Full Tones really helps with a quick "dig" or "no dig" determination. Zinc pennies will register "59-62"almost identical to those older, green Wheats which come in at "61-63" in 4 kHz (and there's always a chance at finding a 1914 D cent! LOL); and copper that's been buried for a long time will often have a slightly jumpy VDI unlike silver which locks on (if it's within VDI range) and stays put as you scan the target.

Notching and full tones is "where it's at" for me for three main reasons:

1. In high-EMI situations like my neighborhood, there is a lot of chatter over the headphones that masks deeper targets much of the time. Ther higher you raise the notch level, the quieter the machine becomes and the less signal ambiguity you encounter once you get over a target
2. Provided the target is a coin that's NOT notched, the audio signal will be clear, concise, and will be of varying mid-to-high pitches. The human ear is most sensitive to sounds between 200 and 2000 Hz, and at about 1000 Hz the human ear is most sensitive to frequency changes. For example, almost anyone can tell a difference between a 1000 Hz tone and a 1001 Hz tone. Trying to differentiate between 6000 Hz and 6001 Hz, for example starts to get challenging - it's like trying to tell apart different shades of deep purple in a dark room; our ears aren't quite optimized for frequencies in this range. The hair cells inside the cochlea are best tuned to frequencies between 200-2000 Hz, and the 800 Hz tone (the highest available on the Deus) is approaching the most sensitive areas of most people's hearing. I love how the Deus has frequency adjustments - this can be tailored for individuals who are hard of hearing and want to take the time to learn their machine as best as possible.
3. Eliminating ferrous target response, those 200 Hz tones, does more than just clear up the background chatter while listening for targets. Low frequency sounds tend to "mask" or "distort" high frequency sounds, a phenomenon known as "the upward spread of masking". This is the exact reason why it's hard to follow conversations in a noisy, crowded restaurant even though the listener(s) may have normal hearing - or when some schmuck pulls along side of you at a traffic light bumping his speakers; low tones practically scramble the shorter-wavelength mid and high tones essential for speech understanding. Another reason: It takes a little more energy to push an audible 100 Hz tone through the tiny headphone speakers (and the control box speaker too) than it does a 200 Hz tone. Every speaker has a resonant frequency range, which means that the larger the speaker, the more efficient they are in making low, bass type tones. This is why you see those stupid stereo systems with 24" speakers - something that large is able to push a 20-100Hz tone rather easily, but try pushing an 8000 Hz tone through it and you'll be disappointed in the sound quality. The little speakers we use in the headphones and control box are probably suited best for tones between 500-7500 Hz, give or take an octave; with the control box being able to produce better-quality low tones (because of a larger speaker).
So switching to 100 Hz for an iron response may make the signal more identifiable, but you will run the risk of missing a faint, high-tone squeak due to masking and the "release time" the speaker needs to return to a state of rest (in milliseconds) before the next audio signal is emitted. This is why I use IRON VOLUME = 0 all the time.

But again, Deus is so flexible that there's not really ONE good program that will encompass all types of hunting. Relic hunters want and need to hear when iron is present, but iron responses can be adjusted (which is one of the coolest features on this machine!) - the best all purpose programs are the "Basic 1" and "Basic 2", and these are excellent programs for people just getting their feet wet. Happy Hunting!

 

[x99]

Thank you for the interesting answer. I will make some tests.
I'm not using break points to get different tones for good targets. I only set the unnecessary range to 100Hz. For example VDI 0-42 at 100Hz (with disk = "0") and the rest (43-99) to 603Hz.
603Hz is my favorite tone at the moment. I had no problem with the notch function until I found out, that too many bottle caps in one spot (for example) masked coins, where programs without notch had no problems at all.

Unfortunately full tones are making me crazy . Maybe I will try it some day again.

 

[Ism]

If you are using 18KHz, 100Hz at 0-42 is fine for eliminating small foil up to foil juice seals. But if you are using 4/8/12KHz, you have to find out where the juice seal (equivalent of 42-43 at 18KHZ) cut off is at those lower frequencies, or use ID norm.
I have never found a gold ring under that number but have found in the 45-47 range at 18KHz. That doesn't mean there aren't gold rings that wont ID that low, just uncommon.
However if you set your cutoff freq. that high you will eliminate many gold chains and earrings which come in as low as VDI of 20 at 18KHz. Chains generally bounce around in VDI number.

 

[samandnoah]

I love this kind of exchange -- informative, clear about facts vs. preferences, and respectful/cordial about differences. That's a tribute to everyone. So, in that spirit, am going to ask some questions...

CZ, you said that 4 kHz loves aluminum. Is that a statement relative to your experience with 8 kHz or 12 kHz? Have you tried 18 kHz? In theory, 18 kHz should be most sensitive to gold. [Let me note here that my 2 gold finds with the Deus were both done at 12 kHz, and they came through just fine] I have tried using 18 kHz in areas I believe have a higher chance of holding some gold (specific areas in parks, not on beaches), and I will share that my experience has been that 18 kHz loves aluminum more than any of the other frequencies. I mean, I was chasing tiny bits of aluminum shrapnel that were a nightmare to find. I was wasting a ton of time trying to find them to get rid of them. I think I kept some to document my experience, and if I can find them I'll post some examples of what I found. This is not scientific in that I did not switch frequencies in situ to see if I still heard it or would have dug it, but I do know that I don't usually find myself chasing these metal gnats in other frequencies. Ha! Let me revise that, except for the wheels off of disposable lighters at 6" I'm not usually chasing things that small!

x99, could you further describe the situation with bottlecaps, notch, and the masking of coins? I find that really interesting because I think of bottlecaps typically ringing up in the zincoln to quarter range, and am assuming your notch was at lower values. If you have notes or details about what worked and what didn't, it would be really informative.

Thanks!
Rich

 

[CZconnoisseur]

4 kHz loves anything non-ferrous at depth, moreso than any other frequency in my opinion. Screw caps come in loud and clear at 9-10", and VDI around the same as zincolns or old Wheats. Surface targets are a little easier to separate I think in the higher frequencies, 12 kHz is what I use in the tot lot across the street but haven't seen any gold yet. Those striker wheels from disposable lighters are troublesome outside of the tot lot around the school, as well as pencil eraser holders!!!

Unfortunately there are a lot of trashy people around the neighborhood and have been for years - At least once a week I witness people throwing stuff out their car windows in front of anyone, and it seems to just be the norm around here. So for me, notching out all this crap really helps along the sidewalk strips and curb strips, but I started off digging almost every signal but got tired of a 5:1 trash:good target ratio.

When I air tested different settings a couple weeks ago, I noticed that a US nickel 5-cent piece could be detected much deeper using 12 kHz than any other frequency. I also had an aluminum "play money" token which was smaller than a dime which also hit deeper in 12 kHz than other freqs. Silver and to some extent copper coins were more easily detected in 4 kHz - for example a 90% silver quarter could be detected about 1.5 to 2" deeper than using any other frequency and keeping all other settings identical. 4 kHz seems to "pop" the faint high-conducting targets out of the chatter a little better, but 12 kHz hits deeper on nickels and likely anything else that is a similar size and conductivity rating.

I've avoided 18 khz like a plague because of the can slaw - there's simply too much of it laying around nearly everywhere for me to have the patience and time to sift through every single piece. I know there's gold somewhere on the school grounds - I've found a couple silver earrings and rings, a couple Rosies, plenty of Wheats, but still no gold.

We are moving out of the neighborhood in 3 weeks or so, so I'm concentrating on permissions and sidewalk strips using 4 kHz before we go. The area where we are moving to is 1970s and 1980s vintage, and will likely have more gold present - so I will adjust my search methods when that time comes. But for now - It's almost 1 Wheat per 2 hour hunt on average, with an occasional Rosie or Merc thrown in. Finding that Walker last month was something I'll never forget - the audio signal was SO clean and crisp, and when the silver rim showed in the plug I knew it was a stellar coin!

 

[x99]

@Ism
Yes, I'm using ID norm and switch between 4KHz / 12KHz. I decided to set "42" as minimum after watching the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XouuXot28e4
I thought, it would be the best compromise.

@samandnoah
I try to explain it. I live in Europe. The VDI of all euro/cent coins sits in a narrow window between 80-90, what makes it very easy to create the right set (if you are hunting for coins that day and want notch all the other stuff out). Unfortunately I had still problems with some bottle caps in the 80-90 range (especially the newer ones at a greater depth). I made a program to solve this issue using a special trick (a combination of notch and a tone at a specific range).

As a result, If a bottle cap had the ID of 80-90, the program shifted it somehow in an area above 90. Because 90-99 was additionally notched out, the signal simply disappeared. I was very happy and found many coins, but one day I discovered an extreme trashy area with huge amount of bottle caps (every few inch). I got suspicious, dropped a coin between and swung the coil over it. I got no signal at all (not from any bottle cap, nor the coin). I tried the stock programs and they gave me a signal (of course from the coin and all the bottle caps).

I experimented a little bit at home and came to the conclusion, that it was the notch feature. But I am not 100% sure - it could be an effect of many bottle caps shifting the ID of the coin and pushing if to the 90+ range (where the notch did the rest). Since then I am using 100Hz as a replacement for the notch, because I think that the Deus processes it faster (it is only my assumption). I will try to test it again.

 

[Portagee Kawika]

Using my settings, I don't dig aluminum nor bottle caps. Perhaps, I'm missing targets with my settings.

Would you mind posting them? Apologies if you already did and I missed them.

You got my attention with the bottle caps. I've seen some useful tricks here for spotting them, but I don't have as much luck as some do with this - perhaps it's due to my poor hearing. I don't always mind digging them up (they can be useful tells when evaluating a site) but sometimes they're simply a nuisance.

 

[samandnoah]

@samandnoah
I try to explain it. I live in Europe. The VDI of all euro/cent coins sits in a narrow window between 80-90, what makes it very easy to create the right set (if you are hunting for coins that day and want notch all the other stuff out). Unfortunately I had still problems with some bottle caps in the 80-90 range (especially the newer ones at a greater depth). I made a program to solve this issue using a special trick (a combination of notch and a tone at a specific range).

As a result, If a bottle cap had the ID of 80-90, the program shifted it somehow in an area above 90. Because 90-99 was additionally notched out, the signal simply disappeared. I was very happy and found many coins, but one day I discovered an extreme trashy area with huge amount of bottle caps (every few inch). I got suspicious, dropped a coin between and swung the coil over it. I got no signal at all (not from any bottle cap, nor the coin). I tried the stock programs and they gave me a signal (of course from the coin and all the bottle caps).

I experimented a little bit at home and came to the conclusion, that it was the notch feature. But I am not 100% sure - it could be an effect of many bottle caps shifting the ID of the coin and pushing if to the 90+ range (where the notch did the rest). Since then I am using 100Hz as a replacement for the notch, because I think that the Deus processes it faster (it is only my assumption). I will try to test it again.

Thanks for that explanation. And nice intuition on the site to try something else to see if you were missing something. So what I'm really hearing is a concern about notching out the high end. I think what CZ is talking about, and what I have been doing recently, is using a low Disc (= 2), and the notching out 2-10 as a way to eliminate listening to the low iron at all, but maximizing the depth achieved with low disc levels. Do you believe that has risks or issues we're not comprehending on the low end? You mention processing speed being affected, but it is really just an audio notch, not true discrimination. So I'm curious.
Thanks,
Rich

 

[x99]

I am not sure about the processing speed. It was only my assumption. Maybe it does not matter how much notch (and where) is being used. Maybe a notch of 0-01 alone would activate a process in the background that needs "extra attention" from the chip. Who knows...

On the other hand the issue could be related to my specific program only, because it increases the VDI of a bottle cap from the 80-90 range.
I made an experiment at home (in the air only) and placed a bottle cap near a coin. I think that using tones with 100Hz (for example) instead of the notch gave me a clearer signal on the coin (from what was left...). But maybe it was only in my head.

I can post my bottle cap program, so everyone can try it for themselves. To see how it works, I recommend to look for a bottle cap that gives a 80-90 reading in all other (18kHz) programs (usually it is a newer bottle cap without rust).

You can also take a bottle cap and swing it in front of the coil. As soon as the distance to the coil increases, the ID should drop below 90. Now take my program and do the same. You will notice that the value of the same bottle cap will increase to about +10. That clears the (80-90) room which is left for the good stuff. The ID of a coin is stable and remains still the same.

Here is the program:

Norm ID = ON

Frequency = 4kHz
Reactivity = 3, Silencer = 2
Audio Response = 4, Audio Overload = 0
Disk = 10 (in this case only an example)
Notch = 90-99

This should eliminate all bottle caps that would normally fall into the 0-90 range. They now become 90+ and will be excluded by the notch. Look at the display bar below the program name, to see what happens.
This trick can also be achieved in another way. To see what really goes on you can set the Notch to 0 again and use a method with 100Hz.

By going to Menu - Disk - Expert - 3 or 4 Ton - Expert and setting the last tone range to 90-99 and 100Hz, a bottle cap will also get a higher ID and fall in the iron tone range between 90-99.

I am using the second method at this point (or often switch between 2 programs, when a signal is lower than 90), because it also influences the G.B value. With the last tone set to 100Hz I can decrease the G.B. value as low as I want, which results in better depth. With this method all the false signals from the ground are redirected to the 100Hz tone range (I have no idea why and don't care as long as it works).
It also works with "99-99" (instead of "90-99") and 100Hz.

 

[samandnoah]

x99, I really appreciate you getting into the details. I think your program would many of us in the US crazy because you have ID Norm ON because so many of the coins that we seek would get pushed into the >90 range! The coins you're seeking must have lower VDI readings.

As an example, some of us hunt in 12 kHz (or 8 kHz), and sometimes I'll get a nice sounding 87 or 88 in 12 kHz. That could be a dime...or a bottlecap. I have a 4 kHz program adjacent to my favorite 12 kHz program, and I will flip over to 4 kHz and rescan. If it is a good target, the VDI will *drop* in 4 kHz. If it is a bottlecap, the VDI will *increase* (>90). That is my favorite method for passing on a bottlecap because I keep my silencer low. I recently found a 1964 silver quarter. At 12 kHz it read somewhere around 94, I believe. When I flipped over to 4 kHz it read as 86. That's when my heart started pumping! But if I had ID Norm ON (like your program), then my readings would have been >90, and appear as a "bad" target. So I think it is your ID Norm setting that is "pushing" your bottlecaps into the >90 range. But it sounds like it is a very logical program for your requirements.

Regards,
Rich

 

[x99]

The coins you're seeking must have lower VDI readings.

Hello samandnoah. This is correct, all current euro/cent coins have a VDI reading between 80-90 (18kHz). But many bottle caps are in that range to.
I like your method. Maybe I will try it next time. At the moment I'm having fun with my new Tejon. I never liked the Deus and I think I never will...