Determining Soil Mineralization.

[ToddB64]

slingshot and Monte,

Below are replies you made in the Tesoro forum to the thread identified below.
This thread was closed by Admin., with the following comment: Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.
So I had to start a new thread to obtain more information on the subject. To this end, I hope you both can help.

Compadre - single beep vs double beeps vs scratchy
Posted by: pkrska [ Send a Message ]
Date: November 06, 2011 04:20PM

I do appreciate your replies (copied & pasted at the bottom of this message), but am still not clear on how to determine rough mineralized ground by doing the various things you suggested with a metal detector.........let me explain, as follows:

First of all, referring to the highlighted areas of your replies, I would like to present the following questions and comments:

How can I gauge the density of minerals in the ground simply by using a metal detector ? As we know, from East coast to West, North to South, certain States in the USA are generally known to be mild soil and others are generally known to be highly mineralized, however, the exact density of soil mineralization can vary in any particular spot of ground you are hunting, in any given State.

Any number of factors, like the exact settings on the detector, sweep speed, exact height of coil to ground, amount of ground moisture, target shape and metallic ingredients and on and on, could be affecting the audio response type ( single beep vs double beeps vs scratchy, smooth and round, etc.) as well as the audio volume. So wouldn't you need a ground mineralization test kit to really know the density of minerals in the ground where you are hunting ?

When we are out metal detecting, unless we have buried a target of known identity and depth, we have no positive knowledge of what kind of target is in the ground or it's depth. So I don't understand Monte's comment " Locate an already lost and buried target. One that is about 3", at least, and especially 4"-5" deep." How would you do that with a non-target-display machine like many of the Tesoro's ? Even with the display screen models, It has been said by many MD'ing experts that the information is not always dead accurate and should be taken as a " best possible guess ".

I realize my comments and questions are probably somewhat exasperating for you gentlemen, and if so I am sorry for that, but I need to be convinced that your advice can work and so far I don't see how. Can you help me understand ?

Thanks and I look forward to your replies.

Todd

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Re: Compadre - single beep vs double beeps vs scratchy
Posted by: slingshot [ Send a Message ]
Date: November 08, 2011 10:38PM Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 2,039

Todd, I hope you don't mind me butting in and I'm sure Monte will add. Even the sweep speed depends on the soil makeup. The best way I've found is to go to the roughest soil you know and when you get a short, quick signal slow the sweep down and find the best speed to get a good signal. Then you'll always know for yourself the best sweep. In tot lots with bark chips and hardly any mineralization, I can FLY with that little thing and it goes DEEPER with a faster sweep speed. It's only when I get in the mineralized ground I notice the "almost" signals.

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Slow sweep speed might be something like ...
Posted by: Monte [ Send a Message ]
Date: November 09, 2011 05:14PM Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 4,063

One Mississippi .. Two Mississippi to cover about a 30" side sweep, and add maybe an extra breath after that to cover a 4 foot path. It might also depend on how slow or fast we can say Mississippi.

As I often state, in very favorable conditions, such as many playgrounds with 8" to 12" of loose wood-chips, you can often use a faster sweep speed.
In ground, and especially in a more dense mineralized environment, the 2-filter models just need to have a slower sweep speed used. The secret for anyone is to learn the particular detector, with the search coil that is mounted, and in a variety of ground mineral challenges.

Locate an already lost and buried target. One that is about 3", at least, and especially 4"-5" deep. Sweep across it at an 'average' sweep speed. Then, once pinpointed, work over and across that targets at a slower sweep speed and note any performance changes. Then, use a faster to very brisk sweep speed. Odds are the faster sweep will not be so impressive, if it is too fast.

Monte

 

[slingshot]

Let me try to put it in a nutshell. You simply can't know at any given time. That's why some have to re-ground balance and why the newer detectors are coming out with a ground readout-which may be the only choice for you. What I think everyone's saying is that each plot USUALLY has a median average of ground minerals. In bad ground a penny, for instance won't give a full blast signal at 3" like it will in average ground. So, IMMEDIATELY you know when you find this scenario you need to slow down the speed to give the detector TIME to process, as much as possible, the ground/target matrix. USING THIS as a guide, you know the best sweep speed for MOST conditions. The WORST thing a detectorist can do is to fall into the trap of "paralysis by analysis" instead of getting out and just enjoying.

 

[Topo]

as slingshot said, just enjoy. I don't consider myself an expert at all, but I usually called a ground bad when it is trashy, when the threshold is constantly unstable or when the machine is gets chirpy, what do I do? time to check ground balance, discrimination or sensitivity. the key is to learn the machine very well and enjoy hunting

 

[ToddB64]

Let me try to put it in a nutshell. You simply can't know at any given time. That's why some have to re-ground balance and why the newer detectors are coming out with a ground readout-which may be the only choice for you. What I think everyone's saying is that each plot USUALLY has a median average of ground minerals. In bad ground a penny, for instance won't give a full blast signal at 3" like it will in average ground. So, IMMEDIATELY you know when you find this scenario you need to slow down the speed to give the detector TIME to process, as much as possible, the ground/target matrix. USING THIS as a guide, you know the best sweep speed for MOST conditions. The WORST thing a detectorist can do is to fall into the trap of "paralysis by analysis" instead of getting out and just enjoying.

slingshot,

Your summary eases my frustration and the last sentence really hits home !....I'm going to make a banner with that saying and hang it on my detector closet door....I'm serious.....no joke !.....I need an attitude adjustment.

Now lets see what Monte has to say.

Thanks alot !

ToddB64

 

[ToddB64]

as slingshot said, just enjoy. I don't consider myself an expert at all, but I usually called a ground bad when it is trashy, when the threshold is constantly unstable or when the machine is gets chirpy, what do I do? time to check ground balance, discrimination or sensitivity. the key is to learn the machine very well and enjoy hunting

Topo...........Thanks for jumping in with good advice !

As I said to slingshot, now lets see what Monte has to say !

ToddB64

 

[Monte]

let me take a quick stab at some of the tings you listed in your post:

Below are replies you made in the Tesoro forum to the thread identified below.
This thread was closed by Admin. ... So I had to start a new thread to obtain more information on the subject. To this end, I hope you both can help.

Compadre - single beep vs double beeps vs scratchy
Posted by: pkrska [ Send a Message ]
Date: November 06, 2011 04:20PM

The first problem here is that the Compadre mentioned does NOT have a true, threshold based All Metal mode, or a variable Ground Balance control to get a rough idea of the mineral conditions compared to another nearby site.

It also lacks any visual display information that might help convey any idea of what the ground make-up might be. I believe the following quotes were made by 'pkrska'.

I do appreciate your replies (copied & pasted at the bottom of this message), but am still not clear on how to determine rough mineralized ground by doing the various things you suggested with a metal detector ..... let me explain, as follows:

First of all, referring to the highlighted areas of your replies, I would like to present the following questions and comments:

How can I gauge the density of minerals in the ground simply by using a metal detector? As we know, from East coast to West, North to South, certain States in the USA are generally known to be mild soil and others are generally known to be highly mineralized, however, the exact density of soil mineralization can vary in any particular spot of ground you are hunting, in any given State.

With the Compadre, and many/most detectors in general use, you really do not have any good way to determine if you are working "rough mineralized ground".

Ground produces a signal of 1Hz to 2Hz as a general rule, but that's only the ground signal. When you consider what affects the metal detector's performance is in different ground conditions, you really need to know how much mineralized ground there is, and I use the term 'mineralized' here because it is somewhat easy to tell more mineralized from less mineralized.

Using your general references around the USA, the Florida beaches are almost 'neutral'. Many of the inland sites I have personally hunted in Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri and a few others are what I would consider to be 'Moderate' mineralized ground. Highly mineralized (aka 'Bad' ground) might be sites like many here in NW and Western Oregon, SW Washington, and quite a few places I have regularly hunted in Utah, Nevada and parts of Wyoming.

You don't have a Ground Balance control on your Compadre to tinker with, but as an example:

If I were to manually GB a detector on a Florida beach then move inland, I would notice only a slight change that would be a little negative from the beach. If I kept that same GB setting and checked the ground I've hunted in Texas, I would note a negative GB that might or might not cause falsing, and is so I would make a slight increase in the GB.

Bringing that Florida beach or inland GB-set detector to my neighborhood west of Portland, Oregon, or to my favorite wester Utah desert ghost town, it would have a very negative GB and I'm sure it would false and chatter in the Disc. mode. It would be a must do when considering the GB setting I

 

[ToddB64]

Monte,

It was very late last night when I checked my E-mail before retiring to bed and saw that there was a reply to my post topic "Determining Soil Mineralization".

So I'll be giving your reply a thorough read/reply on Friday, Nov.18th, God willing and the creek don't rise ! Otherwise, I'll try the next day.

Anyhow, this is just to advise that where you say "I believe the following quotes were made by 'pkrska'." ( in the third paragraph from the top of your reply.), that isn't correct. Wherever it says Posted by: pkrska, the following text was posted by me, ToddB64, not pkrska.

When I said at the top of my post "Below are replies you made in the Tesoro forum to the thread identified below.", the following in bold type was just to identify pkrska's post topic....( See example below.)

Compadre - single beep vs double beeps vs scratchy
Posted by: pkrska [ Send a Message ]
Date: November 06, 2011 04:20PM

I don't know how my text got labeled "Posted by pkrska"......something in the website program maybe ?

I just wanted to set the record straight.........no biggie !

ToddB64

 

[POLEWAGGER]

Why not just drag a magnet through loose, dry test soil to determine a base level of ferrous particles?
When I drag a magnet through our dirt, it comes out covered in red & black fuzz & sand.
Maybe a scientific test can be performed using a constant size, strength magnet passed lightly through dry test soil for one foot?

 

[Monte]

Anyhow, this is just to advise that where you say "I believe the following quotes were made by 'pkrska'." ( in the third paragraph from the top of your reply.), that isn't correct. Wherever it says Posted by: pkrska, the following text was posted by me, ToddB64, not pkrska.

When I said at the top of my post "Below are replies you made in the Tesoro forum to the thread identified below.", the following in bold type was just to identify pkrska's post topic....( See example below.)

Compadre - single beep vs double beeps vs scratchy
Posted by: pkrska [ Send a Message ]
Date: November 06, 2011 04:20PM

I don't know how my text got labeled "Posted by pkrska"......something in the website program maybe ?

I just wanted to set the record straight.........no biggie !

No, the website didn't do that, I did. My computer kept locking up on me yesterday so when I tried, again, to reply, I just shortened some of the quotes and, thinking they were from 'pkrska' I made the change to make it brief. (Like that helped. )

I just hope the overall answers or response was of some help.

Monte

 

[ToddB64]

Monte,

[ I just hope the overall answers or response was of some help.]......Yes, your thorough replies are always good Monte.


[ You don't have a Ground Balance control on your Compadre to tinker with, but as an example: ].....I assume this is referring to a GB knob on the faceplate. But doesn't the Compadre have factory fixed internal pots/devices in the circuitry for Ground Balance, Sensitivity and other necessary controls, all of which could be "tweaked" by a knowledgeable person, such as yourself, to improve detector performance for certain situations and locations ? If I'm correct in that assumption, can you name those "other necessary controls" for me ?

I always make a hard copy of all your posts whenever they involve information needed at the moment or that might be useful in the future. If the post is rather long and detailed, I keep it handy where I can re-read to let the information "sink in" and then it gets placed into my "Monte V. Berry" file folder.

I'm in the process now of re-reading your subject post, so may have additional questions later on.

Thanks Monte, for another great contribution on this thread !

ToddB64

 

[ToddB64]

Why not just drag a magnet through loose, dry test soil to determine a base level of ferrous particles?
When I drag a magnet through our dirt, it comes out covered in red & black fuzz & sand.
Maybe a scientific test can be performed using a constant size, strength magnet passed lightly through dry test soil for one foot?

POLEWAGGER........Thanks for your idea !

Can you give me a list of the basic equipment needed to perform the test suggested, along with some step-by-step instructions for doing the test ?

In addition to the above, there are a couple of things in your reply that I need clarified, as follows:

#1..What is a "constant size, strength" magnet ? Can you elucidate a little more on that ? I would need to know what the common term is, so I know what to ask for when purchasing.

#2..Perhaps your reply to this next question could be explained in one of the instruction steps. How do you go about determining a base level of ferrous particles ? Sounds like that would be similar to a lab test setup.

Thanks for your help.

ToddB64

 

[POLEWAGGER]

Why not just drag a magnet through loose, dry test soil to determine a base level of ferrous particles?
When I drag a magnet through our dirt, it comes out covered in red & black fuzz & sand.
Maybe a scientific test can be performed using a constant size, strength magnet passed lightly through dry test soil for one foot?

POLEWAGGER........Thanks for your idea !

Can you give me a list of the basic equipment needed to perform the test suggested, along with some step-by-step instructions for doing the test ?

In addition to the above, there are a couple of things in your reply that I need clarified, as follows:

#1..What is a "constant size, strength" magnet ? Can you elucidate a little more on that ? I would need to know what the common term is, so I know what to ask for when
purchasing.

I was thinking about a standardized size and strength that we would determine. Say a 1/2"X3/16"X1/8" neodymium magnet. These seem to be about the most common and easy to obtain.

#2..Perhaps your reply to this next question could be explained in one of the instruction steps. How do you go about determining a base level of ferrous particles ? Sounds like that would be similar to a lab test setup.

Simply tie a thread on the magnet and drag it through the test soil, then see how many particles the magnet picks up.
Things like the size and strength of the magnet, distance dragged, and moisture content of soil would need to be controlled to have consistency between different testers.

Thanks for your help.

ToddB64

 

[Monte]

[ You don't have a Ground Balance control on your Compadre to tinker with, but as an example: ] ... I assume this is referring to a GB knob on the faceplate.

Yes, my reference is to having an external, easy-to-adjust, manual GB control Vs an internal, delicate, touchy trimmer. Tesoro has made some good detectors through the years, such as the 1st, 2nd and 4th models in the Bandido series, the Pantera, the

 

[slingshot]

Thanks to the administrators for allowing this topic to finish.

 

[ToddB64]

Admins.,

Whoops, as initiator of this thread, I shouldn't have let slingshot beat me in thanking you.......shame on me ! :blush:

So, THANKS ADMINS. FOR ALLOWING THE SUBJECT TOPIC TO FINISH IN A NEW THREAD !

ToddB64

 

[ToddB64]

Monte,

Thanks again for another helpful reply.......U-Da-Man ! .....And keep those looong ones comin.......much more informative and satisfying for those of us who want details and like to know "what's under the surface-rocks " so to speak !

ToddB64