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Deep-weak signal adjustment?
- Thread starter jyblood
- Start date
IDXMonster
Well-known member
jyblood said:
I’m sure it will have Gain....
vlad
Well-known member
The normal signal which is modulated means the farther the target the weaker the audio.
A special circuit is used to add varying amounts of boost in the receive section.
Some units add boost or gain in the front end which increases the amount of signal transmitted.
While it too will make a weak signal stronger, it does not give full volume at maximum depth.
A special circuit is used to add varying amounts of boost in the receive section.
Some units add boost or gain in the front end which increases the amount of signal transmitted.
While it too will make a weak signal stronger, it does not give full volume at maximum depth.
It doesn’t seem to have a Gain feature like the E-Trac that helps with the deep faint signals.
It does have some advanced volume and tone adjustments that can probably be used to
accentuate the faint signals by turning the volume up or down on different target regions...
For example run a higher volume on the high conductor region and a lower volume in the iron or tab region...
It’s something we are going to have to play around with but the Equinox 800 looks to have some neat advanced
settings so you can dial in a custom program to fit your hunting style...
I prefer a modulated signal.. The faint sound of a deep coin is half the fun for me.
Its the signal I’m in search of knowing it’s probably going to be an oldie!
Bryan
It does have some advanced volume and tone adjustments that can probably be used to
accentuate the faint signals by turning the volume up or down on different target regions...
For example run a higher volume on the high conductor region and a lower volume in the iron or tab region...
It’s something we are going to have to play around with but the Equinox 800 looks to have some neat advanced
settings so you can dial in a custom program to fit your hunting style...
I prefer a modulated signal.. The faint sound of a deep coin is half the fun for me.
Its the signal I’m in search of knowing it’s probably going to be an oldie!
Bryan
sgoss66
Well-known member
Sensitivity IS "gain" on this unit.
Like vlad said, some (very few) machines allow you to adjust a "gain" setting that increases the strength of the TRANSMIT signal (sometimes called Tx Gain). FBS units don't allow transmit gain adjustment, and likewise neither does the Equionx. Many units, however, allow you to increase "gain" for RECEIVE signals (sometimes called Rx Gain). That's what sensitivity is, on the Equinox -- an "Rx Gain." It amplifies the weaker signals. So, if you want maximum depth on the Equinox, you obviously want to "amplify" the weakest signals -- which means you run sensitivity higher. Remember though, that raising sensitivity will -- in turn, amplify ALL weak signals. SOME weak signals are due to deep targets obviously, but other "weak signals" include ground chatter, EMI, tiny targets, etc. And these types of "weak signals" will be amplified ALSO, at high sensitivity. So, there's a balance in there -- raise sensitivity to increase depth, but not SO high that the chatter overwhelms...
Modulated audio is something different -- as Vlad said. The "gain" on the E-Trac was this kind of gain -- a "Volume Gain" (if I recall correctly). In other words, with "gain" maxed, ALL signals, from DEEP targets, SHALLOW targets, SMALL targets, LARGE targets, sounds the "same" in terms of VOLUME. But lowering that "volume gain" setting on the E-Trac would mean that you'd begin to make smaller/deeper targets sound "quieter," while shallow/larger targets remain "louder." That's purely a VOLUME adjustment. I do not think (I will re-check the manual) that the Equinox allows this "audio modulation" to be adjusted.
But, to answer the OP's question -- the exact answer is that the Equinox's adjustment to amplify deep weak signals is the SENSITIVITY adjustment.
Steve
Like vlad said, some (very few) machines allow you to adjust a "gain" setting that increases the strength of the TRANSMIT signal (sometimes called Tx Gain). FBS units don't allow transmit gain adjustment, and likewise neither does the Equionx. Many units, however, allow you to increase "gain" for RECEIVE signals (sometimes called Rx Gain). That's what sensitivity is, on the Equinox -- an "Rx Gain." It amplifies the weaker signals. So, if you want maximum depth on the Equinox, you obviously want to "amplify" the weakest signals -- which means you run sensitivity higher. Remember though, that raising sensitivity will -- in turn, amplify ALL weak signals. SOME weak signals are due to deep targets obviously, but other "weak signals" include ground chatter, EMI, tiny targets, etc. And these types of "weak signals" will be amplified ALSO, at high sensitivity. So, there's a balance in there -- raise sensitivity to increase depth, but not SO high that the chatter overwhelms...
Modulated audio is something different -- as Vlad said. The "gain" on the E-Trac was this kind of gain -- a "Volume Gain" (if I recall correctly). In other words, with "gain" maxed, ALL signals, from DEEP targets, SHALLOW targets, SMALL targets, LARGE targets, sounds the "same" in terms of VOLUME. But lowering that "volume gain" setting on the E-Trac would mean that you'd begin to make smaller/deeper targets sound "quieter," while shallow/larger targets remain "louder." That's purely a VOLUME adjustment. I do not think (I will re-check the manual) that the Equinox allows this "audio modulation" to be adjusted.
But, to answer the OP's question -- the exact answer is that the Equinox's adjustment to amplify deep weak signals is the SENSITIVITY adjustment.
Steve
Jason in Enid
Active member
Steve, I think you have it wrong on the sensitivity function of the FBS. If I'm wrong, please point me to where I can read up on it. My understanding of the sensitivity is more like the squelch knob on the old CB radios. It is just raising or lowering the limit of what is allowed to come through. When you increase the sensitivity you are lowering the squelch threshold so that more noise is allowed through. When the sensitivity is lowered, it makes it harder to allow signals through which means they have to be stronger signals to make it through.
My understanding on all this is that its all after the signal has been recieved and is likely "post analysis" display changes. Nothing with the FBS detectors changes the TX or RX signal strength.
My understanding on all this is that its all after the signal has been recieved and is likely "post analysis" display changes. Nothing with the FBS detectors changes the TX or RX signal strength.
IDXMonster
Well-known member
This would indeed be a very strange deal then...I have been taught that in order for a detector to AMPLIFY a signal in the first place via the audio stage,the detector FIRST must acquire the signal via the level of Sensitivity applied. Are we saying that this is a one stage process? Reading the Equinox manual,it does say that Sensitivity controls the volume of received targets....which flies in the face of what it has meant in the past. It also states to hold the coil still,raise Sensitivity until it falses, and then back it off til it’s stable. That does not sound like any Gain setting procedure I’ve ever heard of. Is there further clarification on how this works with this machine?
I can see if it maxes all audio in a target region regardless of depth and then you’re supposed to adjust overall in the headphones,but even then I don’t think they’d do that. Am I looking at this all wrong?
I can see if it maxes all audio in a target region regardless of depth and then you’re supposed to adjust overall in the headphones,but even then I don’t think they’d do that. Am I looking at this all wrong?
sgoss66
Well-known member
Bryan V said:
Bryan,
You MAY be right -- that "modulation" is what the OP was asking about. But, that's not how I read/understood it. The OP asked "Does the Equinox have an adjustment to amplify deep weak signals?" That is the VERY DEFINITION of the sensitivity function on the Equinox, per the manual (see my response to Jason, below, where I quote the manual). IF the OP would have said "is there a way to make the volume of shallow targets louder than the volume of deeper targets," then I would agree that he was asking about MODULATION. Be he specifically asked about an adjustment to AMPLIFY DEEP WEEK SIGNALS...which -- again -- is the definition of the sensitivity adjustment, per the Equinox manual.
Jason in Enid said:
Jason --
I am only talking about "sensitivity being the same as gain" on the Equinox. I THINK it's the same on FBS, but I'm not positive, but I was only referring specifically to the Equinox in that part of my post. I only mentioned FBS (when I mentioned that transmit gain is "not available on FBS") to try and clarify that there being no "transmit gain" adjustment on the Equinox is not a "step backwards" from FBS, for anyone who wasn't familiar. I was just trying to say "while some units allow transmit gain adjustment, NEITHER FBS nor the Equinox do." I probably confused things there, instead of clarifying. My bad!
BUT -- "sensitivity" is a form of "receive gain" on the Equinox. This quote is from page 34 of the Equinox manual...
Sensitivity adjusts the detector’s level of response to targets and the environment by controlling the amount of amplification applied to signals received by the detector (sometimes called Rx gain).
As for FBS, again -- I cannot answer for certain precisely how sensitivity works, though I THINK it is the same type of "amplification."
BUT -- isn't the way you described it, still essentially the same thing as the way I described it? In other words, let's say the detector receives a very, very weak signal. Does it "output" that signal to the user, or not? That is the question, right? And so we are both discussing a setting which determines whether a very weak signal, that HAS BEEN received by the machine, will be sent as an audio signal to the user, or whether it won't, right? So I am struggling to understand the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying. It seems like we might be saying the same thing, just describing it slightly differently, but maybe not. It seems to me like YOU are saying that "raising sensitivity" means the detector is lowering the threshold of what the user is allowed to hear, such that weaker signals are allowed to be audibly sent on through to the user. I am saying that the detector is "amplifying the strength" of the weaker signals, such that the weaker signals are allowed to be audibly sent on through to the user. Isn't this just two different ways of describing the same thing, or am I missing/overlooking an important detail?
Steve
IDXMonster
Well-known member
This is ALL very fascinating,I’m going to sit back and learn....we do have much more information and experience with the FBS/2 than with the Equinox obviously so perhaps we’re just not quite grasping how the new one does its thing. Maybe it’s plain as day. I dunno....it’s as though they are not incorporating the secondary audio stage that FBS uses to make the FBS “Gain” function work.
sgoss66
Well-known member
Jason --
The more I think about this, the more I think we ARE talking about the same thing, but describing it in different ways; two different ways of visualizing the same thing. Consider my crude picture, below...
[attachment 354556 graph.jpg]
In that figure, let's define the blue line labeled "detection floor" as the weakest signal the machine can detect, and the other blue line labeled "sensitivity threshold" as the level of signal allowed to be passed on through on to the user. And let's define the gray jagged line as representing signals received by the detector.
By me saying sensitivity is "amplifying the receive signal," that suggests that "sensitivity threshold" line is fixed, and increasing sensitivity shoves the gray jagged lines upwards, such that more of the signal peaks (gray line peaks) end up being above the "sensitivity threshold" and thus can be heard by the user. YOU are saying that the gray jagged lines remain fixed in place, but that it's the sensitivity threshold line that is adjustable, such that increasing sensitivity shoves that blue line downward, and thus more of the signal peaks (gray line peaks) end up above the "sensitivity threshold," and thus can be heard by the user.
Either way, it ends up being the same thing, right?
Thoughts?
Steve
The more I think about this, the more I think we ARE talking about the same thing, but describing it in different ways; two different ways of visualizing the same thing. Consider my crude picture, below...
[attachment 354556 graph.jpg]
In that figure, let's define the blue line labeled "detection floor" as the weakest signal the machine can detect, and the other blue line labeled "sensitivity threshold" as the level of signal allowed to be passed on through on to the user. And let's define the gray jagged line as representing signals received by the detector.
By me saying sensitivity is "amplifying the receive signal," that suggests that "sensitivity threshold" line is fixed, and increasing sensitivity shoves the gray jagged lines upwards, such that more of the signal peaks (gray line peaks) end up being above the "sensitivity threshold" and thus can be heard by the user. YOU are saying that the gray jagged lines remain fixed in place, but that it's the sensitivity threshold line that is adjustable, such that increasing sensitivity shoves that blue line downward, and thus more of the signal peaks (gray line peaks) end up above the "sensitivity threshold," and thus can be heard by the user.
Either way, it ends up being the same thing, right?
Thoughts?
Steve
Steve I think the difference is that the Equinox adjusts the amplification equally across all the signals, weak and strong.
The Gain on the E-Trac will amplify weak and strong signals differently depending on the setting..
Cranking the Gain on an E-Trac only boosts the WEAK signal audio..
I’m not smart enough technically to keep up with some of you guys on how this all works.
I just know that you can make deeper, weak signals sound louder or softer depending on the Gain setting.
on the E-Trac without affecting the strong signal.
I don’t see this option in the Equinox manual..
I wasn’t a fan of cranking the Gain on the Etrac so it won’t be missed by me if it’s not there.
I like to tell the size and depth difference between targets.
Bryan
The Gain on the E-Trac will amplify weak and strong signals differently depending on the setting..
Cranking the Gain on an E-Trac only boosts the WEAK signal audio..
I’m not smart enough technically to keep up with some of you guys on how this all works.
I just know that you can make deeper, weak signals sound louder or softer depending on the Gain setting.
on the E-Trac without affecting the strong signal.
I don’t see this option in the Equinox manual..
I wasn’t a fan of cranking the Gain on the Etrac so it won’t be missed by me if it’s not there.
I like to tell the size and depth difference between targets.
Bryan
sgoss66
Well-known member
YES, IDX!
That's how I understand it. IF I AM CORRECT.....then.......what FBS calls "gain" is not really "gain" as traditionally understood. It is ACTUALLY more correctly understood as "MODULATION." In other words, do I want my weak signals to sound LOUD, or do I want my weak signals to sound QUIET. The way I understand it with FBS is this. FIRST, we have to decide how weak of a signal we want the machine to report to us. That is done with sensitivity (as discussed above). THEN -- AFTER we have decided how weak of a signal we want to be able to audibly hear, NOW we get to decide what VOLUME we want to hear those weak signals at...relatively HIGH volume, or relatively LOW volume (relative to the shallow, stronger signals). THAT is what "GAIN" is on FBS, as you were saying...a "secondary, audio stage." Again -- two steps, HOW WEAK OF A RETURN SIGNAL received by the unit do you want to permit to trigger an audio tone, and THEN ..... what VOLUME do you want those weak return signals to report to your ears at?
As I understand it, we don't have "adjustable modulation" on the Equinox. In other words, in "FBS-speak," we have no "gain" adjustment (VOLUME gain adjustment). So, either the audio on the Equinox is NOT MODULATED at all (all signals sound off with the same volume of tone, regardless of size/depth), OR, there IS modulated audio, but it's not adjustable. BUT -- there IS "Rx GAIN" on the Equinox, which is otherwise known as SENSITIVITY!
Steve
That's how I understand it. IF I AM CORRECT.....then.......what FBS calls "gain" is not really "gain" as traditionally understood. It is ACTUALLY more correctly understood as "MODULATION." In other words, do I want my weak signals to sound LOUD, or do I want my weak signals to sound QUIET. The way I understand it with FBS is this. FIRST, we have to decide how weak of a signal we want the machine to report to us. That is done with sensitivity (as discussed above). THEN -- AFTER we have decided how weak of a signal we want to be able to audibly hear, NOW we get to decide what VOLUME we want to hear those weak signals at...relatively HIGH volume, or relatively LOW volume (relative to the shallow, stronger signals). THAT is what "GAIN" is on FBS, as you were saying...a "secondary, audio stage." Again -- two steps, HOW WEAK OF A RETURN SIGNAL received by the unit do you want to permit to trigger an audio tone, and THEN ..... what VOLUME do you want those weak return signals to report to your ears at?
As I understand it, we don't have "adjustable modulation" on the Equinox. In other words, in "FBS-speak," we have no "gain" adjustment (VOLUME gain adjustment). So, either the audio on the Equinox is NOT MODULATED at all (all signals sound off with the same volume of tone, regardless of size/depth), OR, there IS modulated audio, but it's not adjustable. BUT -- there IS "Rx GAIN" on the Equinox, which is otherwise known as SENSITIVITY!
Steve
sgoss66
Well-known member
Bryan, I am glad to hear that the volume IS modulated on the Equinox. Not "adjustable" is fine by me; I WANT modulated audio, and always rain my "GAIN" on FBS down around 6 or 7...so hopefully the Equinox is something similar to that.
ANYWAY, in reference to your prior post, I think you are very, very close on what you are saying. Admittedly it's confusing, because we are using words like "gain" and "amplify" and such, in different ways for different machines!
To reiterate some of what I said above... "GAIN" on the E-Trac should NOT be called "gain." At WORST, it should be called "VOLUME gain," but that's still confusing. It REALLY should be called VOLUME MODULATION. "GAIN" usually has a different meaning in the detector world. So MINELAB confused us there...they used an "unorthodox" definition of "GAIN" on the FBS units.
Anyway, again, I think of it as a two-step process. Start with SENSITIVITY, which I believe can be called RECEIVE GAIN. If you run your sensitivity all the way down, to say, 5, you will only hear an audio signal for the shallowest, largest targets, right? It WILL NOT MATTER what you do with your "GAIN" settting (which I believe should be called VOLUME MODULATION). You can crank your "GAIN" to 10 on the E-Trac, and if your sensitivity is set at 5, you STILL won't hear a 10" deep dime. You have already chosen NOT TO HEAR that 10" dime, by setting your sensitivity (your "receive gain") too low, at 5. No amount of "GAIN" (volume modulation) adjustment is going to allow you to hear it.
BUT -- if you max out your sensitivity, you are now telling your machine "hey, you know that really weak 10" dime signal you received, but I asked you not to report to me when I set my sensitivity at 5? Well, I have run my sensitivity up to 30, so that you will now send that weak signal on through, to my ears -- I want to hear that 10" dime." Now, imagine your machine saying "OK fine, you have instructed me, by setting your sensitivity at 30, to send that weak return signal to you as an audio tone...but at what VOLUME do you want to receive it, loud, or soft?" And then you would answer your machine by either raising your "GAIN" (volume modulation) to 10 -- meaning you want that weak 10" dime return signal to sound LOUD in volume, like a SHALLOW dime, OR you bump your "GAIN" (volume modulation) down to say 4 or 5, telling the machine you want that weak 10" dime return signal to sound QUIET in volume.
Does this help any?
Steve
ANYWAY, in reference to your prior post, I think you are very, very close on what you are saying. Admittedly it's confusing, because we are using words like "gain" and "amplify" and such, in different ways for different machines!
To reiterate some of what I said above... "GAIN" on the E-Trac should NOT be called "gain." At WORST, it should be called "VOLUME gain," but that's still confusing. It REALLY should be called VOLUME MODULATION. "GAIN" usually has a different meaning in the detector world. So MINELAB confused us there...they used an "unorthodox" definition of "GAIN" on the FBS units.
Anyway, again, I think of it as a two-step process. Start with SENSITIVITY, which I believe can be called RECEIVE GAIN. If you run your sensitivity all the way down, to say, 5, you will only hear an audio signal for the shallowest, largest targets, right? It WILL NOT MATTER what you do with your "GAIN" settting (which I believe should be called VOLUME MODULATION). You can crank your "GAIN" to 10 on the E-Trac, and if your sensitivity is set at 5, you STILL won't hear a 10" deep dime. You have already chosen NOT TO HEAR that 10" dime, by setting your sensitivity (your "receive gain") too low, at 5. No amount of "GAIN" (volume modulation) adjustment is going to allow you to hear it.
BUT -- if you max out your sensitivity, you are now telling your machine "hey, you know that really weak 10" dime signal you received, but I asked you not to report to me when I set my sensitivity at 5? Well, I have run my sensitivity up to 30, so that you will now send that weak signal on through, to my ears -- I want to hear that 10" dime." Now, imagine your machine saying "OK fine, you have instructed me, by setting your sensitivity at 30, to send that weak return signal to you as an audio tone...but at what VOLUME do you want to receive it, loud, or soft?" And then you would answer your machine by either raising your "GAIN" (volume modulation) to 10 -- meaning you want that weak 10" dime return signal to sound LOUD in volume, like a SHALLOW dime, OR you bump your "GAIN" (volume modulation) down to say 4 or 5, telling the machine you want that weak 10" dime return signal to sound QUIET in volume.
Does this help any?
Steve
IDXMonster
Well-known member
sgoss66 said:YES, IDX!
That's how I understand it. IF I AM CORRECT.....then.......what FBS calls "gain" is not really "gain" as traditionally understood. It is ACTUALLY more correctly understood as "MODULATION." In other words, do I want my weak signals to sound LOUD, or do I want my weak signals to sound QUIET. The way I understand it with FBS is this. FIRST, we have to decide how weak of a signal we want the machine to report to us. That is done with sensitivity (as discussed above). THEN -- AFTER we have decided how weak of a signal we want to be able to audibly hear, NOW we get to decide what VOLUME we want to hear those weak signals at...relatively HIGH volume, or relatively LOW volume (relative to the shallow, stronger signals). THAT is what "GAIN" is on FBS, as you were saying...a "secondary, audio stage." Again -- two steps, HOW WEAK OF A RETURN SIGNAL received by the unit do you want to permit to trigger an audio tone, and THEN ..... what VOLUME do you want those weak return signals to report to your ears at?
As I understand it, we don't have "adjustable modulation" on the Equinox. In other words, in "FBS-speak," we have no "gain" adjustment (VOLUME gain adjustment). So, either the audio on the Equinox is NOT MODULATED at all (all signals sound off with the same volume of tone, regardless of size/depth), OR, there IS modulated audio, but it's not adjustable. BUT -- there IS "Rx GAIN" on the Equinox, which is otherwise known as SENSITIVITY!
Steve
Excellent as always Steve,I agree with all of it. And as Bryan has added,apparently the Equinox has modulation,just not adjustable as you alluded to. Dammit! Where are those machines at now??
IDXMonster
Well-known member
You guys must have talk to text,I can’t type that fast!