Deep Nail Falses....

[CZconnoisseur]

I know this may be a $64,000 question but I wanted to see anyway....

Recently dug several deep nails, bolts, screws, etc that IDed somewhat like a higher conductor. If the iron object was round or had a "head" like a bolt the numbers were a little more stable in the low 30's. Nails and other similar bits of iron also liked to "high tone" but the numbers and audio weren't as stable. I didn't have time to toggle between programs too much (low battery) but I've heard that Beach2 program uses mostly low freqs as well as Park1 so when there's more time I will experiment. Pinpointing these items from the audio only seemed MORE accurate than doing so with the Deus...

My settings were:

Park1
Sensitivity 21
-9 to 9 Rejected
10 to 40 Accepted
5 tones
GB Manual = 8
Recovery 3
Fe Bias 4

I originally thought that having high iron bias helps with deep iron falsing, but I haven't so far seen any pros/cons of having Fe bias at 0 or 9. I tried lowering ground balance to 0 or 1...no effect. Will higher GB settings help or is this just the language of the detector? What am I missing?

Did manage to dig a coiled copper wire at 8" that IDed around 17-18 and the audio "signature" was about right for the size. This "audio signature" is helpful for a quick sizing of the target in some cases, and pinpointing gives even more audio info. This was a definite low to mid conductor target before digging. Also called a couple targets as folded beavertails from the audio sizing and ID - both were at 7". The Deus HF coil would have called the folded beavertails a "zinc cent" and accordingly would've pushed the (Full Tone) audio higher than what it should be. Perfect for nugget hunting though!

 

[bigbuck1975]

If this is anything like a Deus, I would think the easiest way to ID the iron would be to shift to a single frequency (start high) mode, look at numbers and then change the frequency (lower) and look at the numbers again. If the numbers stay high or goes even higher, it’s iron.

 

[Jason in Enid]

I haven't played with frequency shifting on targets yet, but there are already established ways to help determine iron falses from coins. Coins give a concise signal over an exact spot. A false will usually shift back and forth because you are picking up the false as you come away from the iron. Turning on your iron audio (horseshoe button) will help you hear that iron iron spot in the middle of those high tones. Also, your pinpoint wont be under where you are getting your high tone, but off to the side, and there will be that iron tone under that spot.

Of course, those have been established methods for a while. We have always accepted that sometimes we will just dig iron. It's part of the game. I am curious to try freq shifting on signals to see what happens. For those that do this on the DEUS, how much do you need to change to see that its iron vs a coin?

 

[CZconnoisseur]

The numbers were very jumpy for most of these iron items and freq shifting didn't do anything that I could tell. Still jumpy IDs. However that copper wire ring was just as deep but numbers were much more stable.

In the few hours of using this detector, I've noticed that the ID doesn't "average up" on the fringe targets - for the most part if it's nonferrous it will ID accurately out to the edge of detection. Iron doesn't do this - maybe I answered my own question

 

[CZconnoisseur]

Of course, those have been established methods for a while. We have always accepted that sometimes we will just dig iron. It's part of the game. I am curious to try freq shifting on signals to see what happens. For those that do this on the DEUS, how much do you need to change to see that its iron vs a coin?

Can't help but dig those iffy squeakers though - too many times it's been a dime next to a nail

This area did come alive on the first hunt with little pips and squeaks and such - much like it did with the Deus HF coil

 

[Tony N (Michigan)]

[size=large]We can send a man to the moon and back but we can't develop a detector that can detect the difference between an iron nail and a silver dime.

At least we do have something to look forward to, maybe in 20 to 30 years from now? I'm not complaining. It just is what it is and we, who buy into the "latest greatest,"
still have to find work-arounds on this dilemma. No one said detecting would be easy. In fact, I love a good challenge. I just sometimes wish it were just a little less challenging. [/size]

 

[Jason in Enid]

Of course, those have been established methods for a while. We have always accepted that sometimes we will just dig iron. It's part of the game. I am curious to try freq shifting on signals to see what happens. For those that do this on the DEUS, how much do you need to change to see that its iron vs a coin?

Can't help but dig those iffy squeakers though - too many times it's been a dime next to a nail

This area did come alive on the first hunt with little pips and squeaks and such - much like it did with the Deus HF coil

No, I understand. The problem with a brand new detector is learning to distinguish the fringe targets. I have noticed that deep targets dont have "perfect" responses. They are often clipped and tones are jumpy but each swing still gives "good enough" and repeatable targets.

Actually, I just talked about this in my latest hunt report here: http://thesilverfiend.com/31-march-silver-hunt/

I did still get some nails that flat out fooled me, but I only have a few hours on it so far. Lots of learning left to do!

 

[IDXMonster]

I agree with Jason COMPLETELY in the regard that no matter the machine,the signal won’t wander around,like you’re trying to “catch” it. An open screen most times will clear up what’s within reach,and let you hear if it’s one falsing target or a couple of things in close proximity(not always,but most times). Getting to know the “tells” of the new machine and what the result of those tells are the majority of the time will lead to better success I’m sure. If you’re the kind of hunter who digs ANYTHING that reports AT ALL,then it’s all a moot point. We’ve all tried to wish a badly behaving signal into a coin,but the fact is that most coins have a distinctly different quality to the signal,and are AT LEAST fairly repeatable at the exact same spot on the ground.
I know you know all this,just reiterating as it’s snowing here and I have nothing better to do....

 

[parkgt]

...We’ve all tried to wish a badly behaving signal into a coin,but the fact is that most coins have a distinctly different quality to the signal,and are AT LEAST fairly repeatable at the exact same spot on the ground.....

Learning a new machine (NOX) I have have been doing just that. The coins I have dug so far were under 5" and pretty clear about it. I have chased some very iffy signals trying to see if they were deeper coins; but wishing didn't turn them in to coins.

 

[lse450cc]

Here is a tip. If you can move your coil forward 1inch and back 1 inch . And you lose the signal. It’s most likely a false Signal. Double D coil detects the whole length of the coil.

 

[Architex]

Well we spent a couple three billion going to the moon so if you really want to disc out iron, pony up!!! LOL.

 

[Always Curious]

I believe the Equinox falses on rusty nails more often than my Etrac--that is, falsing without giving some indication that it is falsing. Last evening, in a lot that has many rusty nails but also a few silvers, I dug nothing but rusty nails and a few pieces of aluminum I'd like to hear others' views on whether the Nox is more prone to falsing on nails. Of course, I am new to the Nox and, after better learning its clues, may have a different view on this.

 

[Bryan V]

I believe the Equinox falses on rusty nails more often than my Etrac--that is, falsing without giving some indication that it is falsing. Last evening, in a lot that has many rusty nails but also a few silvers, I dug nothing but rusty nails and a few pieces of aluminum I'd like to hear others' views on whether the Nox is more prone to falsing on nails. Of course, I am new to the Nox and, after better learning its clues, may have a different view on this.

It’s easy to over run the sensitivity on the Equinox.. Especially for FBS users who are used to running Auto +..
The Equinox on 20 is running at 80% of full power..
The CTX or E-Trac on 20 is only running at 65% of power.. Too high of power will amplify the nail falsing..

Try turning down the power to see if this helps.. Running a little discrimination will also quite down the Nox..

I have had good success pulling coins close to nails with the Equinox.. It does it much better then the CTX and E-Trac..
I use pinpoint and rotation quite a bit to ID iron and try to isolate coins next to iron..

Usually I would say to only dig the signals that you can get in two different angles to keep you out of trouble.
This will cut down on nail digs considerably..
I am getting coins in iron with one way signals with the Nox though.. Once isolated the signal will stay pretty tight in ID and tone..

Like others have said.. If the target is moving around or you can’t isolate it then it’s just iron falsing..

If you don’t want to dig any nails, then just dig the targets that are clear with good ID in in two or more angles..
This will cut nail digs by probably 90%..

Use your pinpoint to shape, size and isolate targets..

One last tip is to make sure you manually ground balance if you are on bad ground.. This too will help quiet down the Nox..

Bryan

 

[NCtoad]

I believe the Equinox falses on rusty nails more often than my Etrac--that is, falsing without giving some indication that it is falsing. Last evening, in a lot that has many rusty nails but also a few silvers, I dug nothing but rusty nails and a few pieces of aluminum I'd like to hear others' views on whether the Nox is more prone to falsing on nails. Of course, I am new to the Nox and, after better learning its clues, may have a different view on this.

It’s easy to over run the sensitivity on the Equinox.. Especially for FBS users who are used to running Auto +..
The Equinox on 20 is running at 80% of full power..
The CTX or E-Trac on 20 is only running at 65% of power.. Too high of power will amplify the nail falsing..

Try turning down the power to see if this helps.. Running a little discrimination will also quite down the Nox..

I have had good success pulling coins close to nails with the Equinox.. It does it much better then the CTX and E-Trac..
I use pinpoint and rotation quite a bit to ID iron and try to isolate coins next to iron..

Usually I would say to only dig the signals that you can get in two different angles to keep you out of trouble.
This will cut down on nail digs considerably..
I am getting coins in iron with one way signals with the Nox though.. Once isolated the signal will stay pretty tight in ID and tone..

Like others have said.. If the target is moving around or you can’t isolate it then it’s just iron falsing..

If you don’t want to dig any nails, then just dig the targets that are clear with good ID in in two or more angles..
This will cut nail digs by probably 90%..

Use your pinpoint to shape, size and isolate targets..

One last tip is to make sure you manually ground balance if you are on bad ground.. This too will help quiet down the Nox..

Bryan

I've dug some nails and bolts too with my 800. Usually the ones that sound good are bolts with a big head like a carriage bolt or a big nut on them. If you hit the horseshoe button, you'll usually hear the iron grunts. Also I think a lot of us are hoping that there could be a nice silver down in the hole with a nail next to it leading us to dig more iffy signals than we normally would. Hence digging more nails.

 

[IDXMonster]

Here is a tip. If you can move your coil forward 1inch and back 1 inch . And you lose the signal. It’s most likely a false Signal. Double D coil detects the whole length of the coil.

This is a huge reason WHY we can go places again and again and still bring out coins,some not that hard to find. The area of the ground that is going to report a coin signal is VERY SMALL,this is an excellent point for various reasons! Overlapping and gridding can really help to find some elusive coins,because of this exact thing,you have to be RIGHT ON the spot with at least part of the coil to catch it.

 

[earthmansurfer]

We can send a man to the moon and back but we can't develop a detector that can detect the difference between an iron nail and a silver dime.

At least we do have something to look forward to, maybe in 20 to 30 years from now? I'm not complaining. It just is what it is and we, who buy into the "latest greatest,"
still have to find work-arounds on this dilemma. No one said detecting would be easy. In fact, I love a good challenge. I just sometimes wish it were just a little less challenging.

Actually, I tend to believe these days that the moon landings are not what they claimed, scientifically that is. [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4khlHjpoEEI[/video]

I think the next great leap in detecting tech is going to be either a PI with disc or perhaps some combination of VLF with Pulse integration. I would almost expect Minelab to do this, as the have some patents here but I believe quite a few are working on the former.
Before we get there though, I expect to see some increase in separation. Using MF's just gives the machine more variables, and I think that is going to get even better.

Regarding deep nail falses - Yeah, it gets me on occasion but I'm still learning the machine and the suggestions listed just far do work. Pinpointing will often show the "target" on the edge of the mass, which could be a coin in iron but often that is a false signal as well.
As others said though, the clarity of the signal, and often too much tightness (i.e. can't move the coil around much) are a great sign. Why I love detecting, it is the puzzle in part, large part. But of course the finds are rewarding as well.

EMS

 

[calabash digger]

I have chased a few nails. You guys know I live in the iron. I run iron bias at 2 but cut sensitivity down in the thickest iron from 23 to 20 and that helps too. There have been a few nails that just got me. Its happened with every detector I have used. Does the Nox high tone more? It will imo if you have sens set to high in thick iron. I dont find myself chasing more iron with it though now that I'm getting the hang of it. There are some nails that are just gonna get you no matter what. imo a bent nail is a tough one. I think the reason behind it is the higher weighted freqs its running. I noticed the same thing on the deus when I started running the HF coils in higher freqs. A nail would get me a few more times than normal.

 

[Jason in Enid]

......I think the next great leap in detecting tech is going to be either a PI with disc or perhaps some combination of VLF with Pulse integration. I would almost expect Minelab to do this, as the have some patents here but I believe quite a few are working on the former......

EMS

The first steps were taken by minelab long ago. All other VLF detectors have always used a frequency domain for signal analysis. PIs operate on a time domain. The FBS detectors were the first VLF that operated in the time domain like PI detectors. This is also why have always had far less problems with mineralization and salt conductivity than other VLF detectors.

 

[john4840]

......I think the next great leap in detecting tech is going to be either a PI with disc or perhaps some combination of VLF with Pulse integration. I would almost expect Minelab to do this, as the have some patents here but I believe quite a few are working on the former......

EMS

The first steps were taken by minelab long ago. All other VLF detectors have always used a frequency domain for signal analysis. PIs operate on a time domain. The FBS detectors were the first VLF that operated in the time domain like PI detectors. This is also why have always had far less problems with mineralization and salt conductivity than other VLF detectors.

Problem with fbs is that it loves iron and iron nails. I will dig occasional nail instead a mess of them with fbs.

 

[IDXMonster]

......I think the next great leap in detecting tech is going to be either a PI with disc or perhaps some combination of VLF with Pulse integration. I would almost expect Minelab to do this, as the have some patents here but I believe quite a few are working on the former......

EMS

The first steps were taken by minelab long ago. All other VLF detectors have always used a frequency domain for signal analysis. PIs operate on a time domain. The FBS detectors were the first VLF that operated in the time domain like PI detectors. This is also why have always had far less problems with mineralization and salt conductivity than other VLF detectors.

Problem with fbs is that it loves iron and iron nails. I will dig occasional nail instead a mess of them with fbs.

If many nails and iron are being dug with FBS,the basics of detecting(no matter how long you’ve been detecting,old dogs make mistakes) are not being employed properly. Nails and coins do not sound and act the same,and SURELY do not ID the same.