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Ctx on deep objects
- Thread starter stateguyt
- Start date
Yes we do go by the second set of #s the first set is the ferrous part these can change depending how much iron is in the ground rust flakes iron mineralization iron located close by and a bunch of things can change the first reading FE now the conduct readings are much more stable unless you add a lower or higher conduct # target which well raise or lower the co #s ferrous won't affect the co #s unless the non-ferrous consumes the conductive target then we just get iron or 35.45 and so on .
But if the ferrous target along with the non-ferrous target are equal in return signal or the non-ferrous is stronger in return signal than we can have 12.23 to 12.43 so you could have a dime read in any one of these #s but you may not get audio but you will get target trace unless to deep .sube
But if the ferrous target along with the non-ferrous target are equal in return signal or the non-ferrous is stronger in return signal than we can have 12.23 to 12.43 so you could have a dime read in any one of these #s but you may not get audio but you will get target trace unless to deep .sube
sgoss66
Well-known member
stateguyt --
To answer your question, and expand on what sube said --
The short answer is YES.
Think of it this way. On a traditional single-frequency VLF machine, accurate ID numbers and deep target detection depend on very mild soil. The more mineralized the soil, the "less deep" targets can be seen, AND, the more "inaccurate" ID numbers become, the deeper the target is in the ground. For instance, in my dirt, most single-frequency VLF units fail to maintain even decently-accurate ID values beyond about 6" deep. The reason is, iron mineralization in the ground tends to "skew" the receive signal from a target toward an "iron" ID. So, the deeper a target is in mineralized ground, the more the detector wants to "ID" that target as iron.
Part of the "magic" of FBS is that with multiple frequencies running, algorithmically Minelab was able to sort of "separate out," to some degree, that target ID "mineralization bias" that tends to happen, and "confine" much of it to the FE side of the equation, leaving the CO side relatively "unscathed."
I used to hunt a Minelab Explorer, the "younger sibling" of the E-Trac, and "cousin" of the CTX. On the Explorer, Ferrous numbers were not "normalized" to "12" like they now are on the E-Trac and CTX -- meaning, each specific target would have a specific FE/CO pair, in terms of "air test value." A silver dime would read, say, 03-29, a nickel 12-06, an Indian Head Penny 07-24, etc. BUT, in the ground, the FE number on those coins would begin to deviate -- WHILE, the CO number remained fairly stable (as sube mentioned). For instance, a deep dime might begin giving off IDs (instead of the normal 03-29) of like 07-29, 09-28, 11-29, 13-27, 12-29, etc. -- on successive sweeps of the coil. So, what you learn on the Explorer is, if you want to dig deep coins, you have to "allow for" upward fluctuation of the FE number. Again -- the beauty of FBS being that on the CO side, you get more "uncontaminated" and "stable" numbers, even on very deep targets.
Now, on the E-Trac, and particularly the CTX, the FE number being "normalized" to 12 has removed some of that "FE deviation." So, even on deeper targets, you still usually get FE numbers in the 11, 12, 13 range. But, in some dirt (especially mineralized ground), deep targets still exhibit behavior sometimes where that FE number will start to deviate a bit more substantially. Another thing that can cause it is, like sube said, other targets (especially iron) in close proximity to your coin. Bottom line, paying more attention to your CO numbers is definitely the way to go, as you noted in your post. BUT, don't discount the "extra information" that can be gleaned from paying attention to that FE number...
Hope that helps!
Steve
To answer your question, and expand on what sube said --
The short answer is YES.
Think of it this way. On a traditional single-frequency VLF machine, accurate ID numbers and deep target detection depend on very mild soil. The more mineralized the soil, the "less deep" targets can be seen, AND, the more "inaccurate" ID numbers become, the deeper the target is in the ground. For instance, in my dirt, most single-frequency VLF units fail to maintain even decently-accurate ID values beyond about 6" deep. The reason is, iron mineralization in the ground tends to "skew" the receive signal from a target toward an "iron" ID. So, the deeper a target is in mineralized ground, the more the detector wants to "ID" that target as iron.
Part of the "magic" of FBS is that with multiple frequencies running, algorithmically Minelab was able to sort of "separate out," to some degree, that target ID "mineralization bias" that tends to happen, and "confine" much of it to the FE side of the equation, leaving the CO side relatively "unscathed."
I used to hunt a Minelab Explorer, the "younger sibling" of the E-Trac, and "cousin" of the CTX. On the Explorer, Ferrous numbers were not "normalized" to "12" like they now are on the E-Trac and CTX -- meaning, each specific target would have a specific FE/CO pair, in terms of "air test value." A silver dime would read, say, 03-29, a nickel 12-06, an Indian Head Penny 07-24, etc. BUT, in the ground, the FE number on those coins would begin to deviate -- WHILE, the CO number remained fairly stable (as sube mentioned). For instance, a deep dime might begin giving off IDs (instead of the normal 03-29) of like 07-29, 09-28, 11-29, 13-27, 12-29, etc. -- on successive sweeps of the coil. So, what you learn on the Explorer is, if you want to dig deep coins, you have to "allow for" upward fluctuation of the FE number. Again -- the beauty of FBS being that on the CO side, you get more "uncontaminated" and "stable" numbers, even on very deep targets.
Now, on the E-Trac, and particularly the CTX, the FE number being "normalized" to 12 has removed some of that "FE deviation." So, even on deeper targets, you still usually get FE numbers in the 11, 12, 13 range. But, in some dirt (especially mineralized ground), deep targets still exhibit behavior sometimes where that FE number will start to deviate a bit more substantially. Another thing that can cause it is, like sube said, other targets (especially iron) in close proximity to your coin. Bottom line, paying more attention to your CO numbers is definitely the way to go, as you noted in your post. BUT, don't discount the "extra information" that can be gleaned from paying attention to that FE number...
Hope that helps!
Steve
PryorCreekJoe
Member
stateguyt said:
A little different analogy. Think of the FE (Ferrous) as water and think of the CO (Conductive) as oil. Now think of the FE 12 as a perfect Ground Balance. Just as water is easy to contaminate, so is the Ground Balance of FE 12. Add some minerals, add some salt, add some rust, add some fertilizer and it contaminates the FE 12 and cause it to bounce around as the detector tries to keep the balance of FE 12. But on the other hand, the CO is like oil and the oil is much harder to contaminate so it remains constant but the rusty water, the FE 12, now jumps around as the detector struggles trying to adjust back to the perfect ground balance of 12. That is why your audio is so important. It is to grab your attention and to alert you to look at your screen to see and analyze the “numbers”, the icon placement, the target trace and make an informed decision whether or not to dig. And as the targets are deeper the ability to discern good targets gets exponentially harder. This where coil control is crucial as it helps to stabilized the jumping numbers and audio. As the targets are deeper that just means more ground that the detector has to balance out that much more contaminates. The deeper ground is like driving in heavy fog. You have to slow down and have better control in order to see.
PCJ
Great info here. Thanks guys. I've had my ctx for about 6 weeks and half of that has been bad weather. But in the 3 usable weeks, I have picked up on the CO not always being a 12 while the FE is showing a good target. I come form using a safari and never used an e-track so I started out with the ctx as a newbie in regards of it's target ID. At first, I was looking for both sets of numbers to be right and many times they were but I also started noticing that when I investigated a target, I would get a real consistent FE number and a really tight pin point sound. Everything appeared to be a coin except the CO number would be a 13. I was in a really clean football practice field and that made it easy. I dug the first target and popped out a quarter. Then another where the CO was 13 and out popped another quarter. Then again, another quarter, Then again, another quarter. 4 quarters in a role all about 20 feet or so apart from each other. I dug an iffy nickel signal and popped out a silver ring. Pocket spills throw the number off also as to be expected. I have dug several little spills. 2 quarters in the same hole twice back to back. I had a strong shallow nickel signal right up next to a blacktop sidewalk.and pulled out a 24" heavy silver necklace/chain. Nickels are a 50/50 shot with pulltabs for me. I have dug a lot of nickels that I would have left behind with the safari. I have found a fair amount of clad, 1 silver dime, one silver ring and one silver necklace, a hot wheels car and a toy pistol. I even dug a Chuck E cheese token. It gave good numbers. I am lovin the ctx and learning a lot the more I use it.
I personally rarely look at the actual numbers and almost never make a decision based on the numbers. I think the most valuable information the CTX gives us is the picture of the target on the screen. I set it up to hear different tones, 4 tone combined, and as I am mainly a coin/silver digger, I have the nickel bin high and the above 39 high, I hear a high tone, I get it to repeat, do a 90 degree on it to get a repeat, then if it is still high and good repeat, I look at the target display on the screen. If it is in the right spot for a dime I dig it. To me, the numbers are the last thing I would use for a 'dig or dont dig' decision! Yes they are a part of the several slues I get but they are not the decider! The decider is the target display and target trace.
sgoss66
Well-known member
jas --
You said one of the things you use to make a dig decision is "if the (cursor) is in the right spot;" just wanted to mention that looking at a "cursor position" is exactly analogous to looking at the numbers, since each cursor position has a direct, 1:1 corellation with one specific FE/CO pair of numbers. I know you already know this, but each pixel is simply an X,Y coordinate, where X=CO number and Y=FE number.
So, you actually ARE using the numbers to help make a dig decision...
I am not directing this toward you, necessarily; it goes back to an old argument I used to have with Explorer users, where they insisted that I was crazy for looking at numbers; I needed to be looking at CURSOR POSITION. My point always was, you are looking at the SAME THING, either way, just a different way of displaying it (the digits themselves, or the position of the digits on an X,Y coordinate graph...
Target trace, on the CTX, certainly gives lots of valuable info. Not arguing that, at all. In fact, my way of "interrogating" a target is very, very similar to yours. Just wanted to toss this out there...
Steve
You said one of the things you use to make a dig decision is "if the (cursor) is in the right spot;" just wanted to mention that looking at a "cursor position" is exactly analogous to looking at the numbers, since each cursor position has a direct, 1:1 corellation with one specific FE/CO pair of numbers. I know you already know this, but each pixel is simply an X,Y coordinate, where X=CO number and Y=FE number.
So, you actually ARE using the numbers to help make a dig decision...
I am not directing this toward you, necessarily; it goes back to an old argument I used to have with Explorer users, where they insisted that I was crazy for looking at numbers; I needed to be looking at CURSOR POSITION. My point always was, you are looking at the SAME THING, either way, just a different way of displaying it (the digits themselves, or the position of the digits on an X,Y coordinate graph...
Target trace, on the CTX, certainly gives lots of valuable info. Not arguing that, at all. In fact, my way of "interrogating" a target is very, very similar to yours. Just wanted to toss this out there...
Steve
IDXMonster
Well-known member
sgoss66 said:
I agree with both of you guys,as well as using the depth meter to help determine old from new(in general). Most of my sites are “textbook” in the “deeper is older” way of thinking,so the depth meter is my buddy. The fact that the machine has so many “tells” and is very accurate so much of the time,it makes hunting FUN. We want good numbers.got it. We want a good 2D color display to follow multiple targets. Got it. We want to be able to select our own tones. Got it. We want to manipulate the FE line and size the bins while still listening to everything if we want. Got it. Lots of other stuff. Got it.
I’m a guy that respects a well built “item” that operates and does it’s job in a superior way,whether it be a really nice mower,a car,a television,pair of boots....whatever. I STILL look at the CTX (literally,it lives in my bedroom) and think about how many great finds I’ve made with it and dream about the ones yet to come. It has surpassed my wildest expectations quite awhile ago.