CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"

[cjc]

II/ CTX 3030 “Trade-offs”
As with any detector, getting the best performance from the CTX requires that the operator understand and mediate a number of “trade-offs”. These consist of a choice and one or more ways (adjustments or method changes) that allow you to affect that choice:
Noise / Stability
-can you hear and identify targets?
-is the machine getting as much depth as possible?
-choices: Auto Sens / Manual (reduce), Open or Closed Screen. (see below).

Auto Sensitivity versus Manual
Characteristics of Auto:
Plus: stable, less falses / cross-feeds / “clean” responses, better target ID
Minus: less depth / harder to acquire targets / less awareness of ground conditions & changes / may drop Sensitivity level too low in extreme ground ie. “ black sand.” / constant changes represent more for the machine to deal with.
Characteristics of Manual:
Plus: deeper / sharper responses / better “notch” capability for closed programs / gives you the ability to run at the “limit”/ gives you a better idea as to what the ground conditions require. / alerts you to more marginal signals
Minus: less stable / more falses, cross-feeds / needs more attention to coil control /
more likely to be too high for the conditions / more “partial” responses need to be checked.
Open Screen versus Closed Screen Methods
Characteristics of Open Screen:
Plus: generally deeper / more small & odd shaped targets , chains, earrings / allows “full” audio on responses (complete and accurate).
Minus: less stable / less distinct target sounds / requires more attention to coil control / more checking of cross-feeds, falses, “partial” target sounds.
Characteristics of Closed Screen:
Plus: more stable / allows higher Sensitivity levels / sharper audio / alerts you to good responses in trash.
Minus: less depth / “sluggish” responses / harder to acquire targets / some targets are only heard partially (bottlecaps for example).

 

[Jason in Enid]

Good synopsis, but that needs a caveat as to the ground you hunt. For instance, in my ground, I have found NO improvement to running manual as opposed to auto+3 sensitivity. I have tried to "clean up" jumpy, iffy targets by switching to manual and never had a target come in better. Ever time it has only given me more erratic falsing.

On the Florida / Caribbean beaches I hunt though, I can run manual almost as high as it can go without problems, but even auto+3 gives much, much deeper depths than hunting my soil back home. If you can run mostly stable at very high manual settings, you should always take that option, but over all you are correct..... everything in this hobby is a tradeoff.

 

[IDXMonster]

Good stuff all around,and at the risk of sounding like an echo,Auto+3 is what I use unless I’m testing or in a really “rotten” area. 95% of the time in my southern WI soil,if I switch to Manual to “bring out” a target,it gets “worse”...stability of numbers whacked out,depth reading sporadic,extra chattering,etc. The 17” coil has proven to ME for 2 years straight that I can get those 8-11” coins while still running Auto+3 just because of the size of the field generated. Not bad for TURF! Strictly being a “silver coin hunter” I still have things to learn in order to keep my sites,and new ones,producing.
It just reinforces the old saying,”what works HERE might not be as good THERE”, for various reasons. But having a solid base to work from, in the understanding of what affects what, is incredibly important and well laid out above.

 

[PryorCreekJoe]

Manual Sensitivity at 30, open screen (NO discrimination), 17 inch coil and extreme coil control is what I use to consistently dig deep coils. When I say deep, I am referring to 10+. I dug a war nickel just yesterday at 12 1/2 inches. That is my deepest nickel since I got the 3030 in 2012. I have dug several 13+ inch dimes and 1 15+ inch walker half. I use Black Widows headphone that block out 24 DB of ambient noise and have a booster circuit to amplify the signal. Coil control is the key to running the 3030 "hot" in my opinion. That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like. It is an art that very few 3030 owners take the time or have the patience to learn. To many just want to "cover the ground". Good write up Clive.

 

[IDXMonster]

Manual Sensitivity at 30, open screen (NO discrimination), 17 inch coil and extreme coil control is what I use to consistently dig deep coils. When I say deep, I am referring to 10+. I dug a war nickel just yesterday at 12 1/2 inches. That is my deepest nickel since I got the 3030 in 2012. I have dug several 13+ inch dimes and 1 15+ inch walker half. I use Black Widows headphone that block out 24 DB of ambient noise and have a booster circuit to amplify the signal. Coil control is the key to running the 3030 "hot" in my opinion. That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like. It is an art that very few 3030 owners take the time or have the patience to learn. To many just want to "cover the ground". Good write up Clive.

You’re digging “deep COILS” Joe? Like someone was hunting so deep they snapped it right off?
I know you meant COINS, and all that “upper level hunting” will come to me in time,it’s a matter of spending time doing it.

 

[Jason in Enid]

You’re digging “deep COILS” Joe? Like someone was hunting so deep they snapped it right off?
I know you meant COINS, and all that “upper level hunting” will come to me in time,it’s a matter of spending time doing it.

LOL, I had the same thought when I read "digging coils".

So youre still looking to develop the "upper level hunting" techniques? Have you figured out what the "almost unidentifiable coin" reads like yet? Well, that's my term for it anyway. I actually recorded one yesterday, and I'm praying the video shows it well (I havent watched the footage yet, and it can be hard to video a CTX screen on a sunny day). At first you think its an iron false. You don't get perfect repeatable "beeps", but it hits on most passes. The VDI is ugly; there is no red blob building with target trace. The FE-CO image goes all over the right side of the screen.... top to bottom, all over, random, barely-there hits like you see when you have true iron false. The big thing that should grab your attention is that the bottom-right is CLEAR. Its not indicating any iron. That empty iron corner with any amount of repeatable high conductive tone must be dug!

Yes, you will hit iron falses some times. You will also get old coins everyone else has missed. I had this twice yesterday, both times were 8 - 9 inch deep dimes (and about 12 inches away from each other), and likely almost on edge. They were both about 4 - 5 inches away from the target pinpoint which is what angled coins do. I never got a double hit from them so I don't think they were fully up/down on edge.

ETA - I just previewed the vid on my camera and it was a decent recording! I'll have it up on youtube in a few days .

 

[IDXMonster]

Jason,nope. Haven’t gotten there yet. I’ve been fortunate enough to just keep on truckin’ till I get a signal that is better than what you describe. Problem is...most of my places are chock full-o nuthin’ anymore! I was lucky to get a park permission here in town last fall that produced 22 or 23 silver coins in the last month of hunting. I’ve got a couple/few GREAT old sites that are from the mid 1800s. There are some really terrible signals in there which I’m going to have to buckle down and dig this year. Last year I had a few physical glitches that made me not want to dig anything that didn’t have a 75% chance of being good,as pain was involved. With the “no iron indication in the bottom” trick,I may be able to harvest some unbelievable coins,which will ease any pain somewhat!
Thanks for the tip,I’ll be looking for that video!

 

[PryorCreekJoe]

You’re digging “deep COILS” Joe? Like someone was hunting so deep they snapped it right off?
I know you meant COINS, and all that “upper level hunting” will come to me in time,it’s a matter of spending time doing it.

LOL, I had the same thought when I read "digging coils".

So youre still looking to develop the "upper level hunting" techniques? Have you figured out what the "almost unidentifiable coin" reads like yet? Well, that's my term for it anyway. I actually recorded one yesterday, and I'm praying the video shows it well (I havent watched the footage yet, and it can be hard to video a CTX screen on a sunny day). At first you think its an iron false. You don't get perfect repeatable "beeps", but it hits on most passes. The VDI is ugly; there is no red blob building with target trace. The FE-CO image goes all over the right side of the screen.... top to bottom, all over, random, barely-there hits like you see when you have true iron false. The big thing that should grab your attention is that the bottom-right is CLEAR. Its not indicating any iron. That empty iron corner with any amount of repeatable high conductive tone must be dug!

Yes, you will hit iron falses some times. You will also get old coins everyone else has missed. I had this twice yesterday, both times were 8 - 9 inch deep dimes (and about 12 inches away from each other), and likely almost on edge. They were both about 4 - 5 inches away from the target pinpoint which is what angled coins do. I never got a double hit from them so I don't think they were fully up/down on edge.

ETA - I just previewed the vid on my camera and it was a decent recording! I'll have it up on youtube in a few days .

Spelling is not my strong suit guys. LOL Glad I could give you guys a laugh though.
On detecting I am always working on my skills. I will never come to the conclusion that I am at the upper level of hunting but I do know that I can dig some deep deep coins. Of the 87 silver coins that I dug last year, more than half were over the 9 inch mark. That in my mind is pretty good, not great but pretty good. I dug one of those hits today that only sounded off one direction. On an east west swing, it would only hit on the east swing, not the west. Nothing on the north south either. It was mostly an iron tone but chirping silver enough to dig. It said that it was 12 inches deep, which for me, if I get the chirp and a depth over 8 inches-I DIG. Like yours, it was in the side of the hole at an angle. A lot of those silvers last year were angled or completely on edge. My favorite was a Merc straight up and down that I dug with on of our forum members Dec 9. He is the one who measured it. It's chirp was enough for me to dig and it was on a site that you only dig if you are reasonably sure it is a coin. Excavating a coin on this site sometimes takes 15 minutes and a lot of sweat. These kinds of sites foster building good techniques for sure!

Joe

 

[Jason in Enid]

....... I dug one of those hits today that only sounded off one direction. On an east west swing, it would only hit on the east swing, not the west. Nothing on the north south either. It was mostly an iron tone but chirping silver enough to dig. It said that it was 12 inches deep, which for me, if I get the chirp and a depth over 8 inches-I DIG. Like yours, it was in the side of the hole at an angle. A lot of those silvers last year were angled or completely on edge. My favorite was a Merc straight up and down that I dug with on of our forum members Dec 9. He is the one who measured it. It's chirp was enough for me to dig and it was on a site that you only dig if you are reasonably sure it is a coin. Excavating a coin on this site sometimes takes 15 minutes and a lot of sweat. These kinds of sites foster building good techniques for sure!

Joe

Wow, I don't think I have ever stopped to dig a target that responded like that. Too bad there's no video of it, I would love to see and hear it before it was dug. You did hit on a good point there, depth is a big factor too. I forgot to mention that before... the depth guage on my last digs was jumping from 7 - 9 inches so I knew it was going to be deep. I have actually had some nice finds from digging any repeatable signal that had a deep indicator. The tiny aluminum and brass bits are what screw me up there.

So.... a single direction only hit....with a deep depth indicator. I'm going to start paying more attention for a target like that. I have always assumed they were iron, but if the iron corner is empty? It's something to try!

 

[PryorCreekJoe]

Jason,nope. Haven’t gotten there yet. I’ve been fortunate enough to just keep on truckin’ till I get a signal that is better than what you describe. Problem is...most of my places are chock full-o nuthin’ anymore! I was lucky to get a park permission here in town last fall that produced 22 or 23 silver coins in the last month of hunting. I’ve got a couple/few GREAT old sites that are from the mid 1800s. There are some really terrible signals in there which I’m going to have to buckle down and dig this year. Last year I had a few physical glitches that made me not want to dig anything that didn’t have a 75% chance of being good,as pain was involved. With the “no iron indication in the bottom” trick,I may be able to harvest some unbelievable coins,which will ease any pain somewhat!
Thanks for the tip,I’ll be looking for that video!

Hey Monster,
I had rotator cuff surgery on my left (shovel arm) shoulder in 2014 and on my right (swinging arm) in 2016. Rehabbing the right shoulder with the 3030 was a challenge that really help make my swing so much better than it used to be. And the silver production really improved too. I know what you mean about only digging if almost positive it is a coin, and silver at that.

PCJ

 

[cjc]

Those are some extreme settings, Joe--kind of what the UK hunters talk about "winkleing" coins through the noise. Certainly agree with you about the coil control. I have a sense though that like a pulse, a high gain signal will return a cleaner response with something to seperate the ground signal from where your targets are--up in the plus zeros. Even a single disc line. Probably make the coil control task easier. This works well for me in salt and I've gotten a few very deep rings with the 17" coil that way.
cjc

 

[cjc]

Great info, Jason.
cjc

 

[PryorCreekJoe]

....... I dug one of those hits today that only sounded off one direction. On an east west swing, it would only hit on the east swing, not the west. Nothing on the north south either. It was mostly an iron tone but chirping silver enough to dig. It said that it was 12 inches deep, which for me, if I get the chirp and a depth over 8 inches-I DIG. Like yours, it was in the side of the hole at an angle. A lot of those silvers last year were angled or completely on edge. My favorite was a Merc straight up and down that I dug with on of our forum members Dec 9. He is the one who measured it. It's chirp was enough for me to dig and it was on a site that you only dig if you are reasonably sure it is a coin. Excavating a coin on this site sometimes takes 15 minutes and a lot of sweat. These kinds of sites foster building good techniques for sure!

Joe

Wow, I don't think I have ever stopped to dig a target that responded like that. Too bad there's no video of it, I would love to see and hear it before it was dug. You did hit on a good point there, depth is a big factor too. I forgot to mention that before... the depth guage on my last digs was jumping from 7 - 9 inches so I knew it was going to be deep. I have actually had some nice finds from digging any repeatable signal that had a deep indicator. The tiny aluminum and brass bits are what screw me up there.

So.... a single direction only hit....with a deep depth indicator. I'm going to start paying more attention for a target like that. I have always assumed they were iron, but if the iron corner is empty? It's something to try!

That's what so good about the Forums, one idea fosters another, which leads to another. We need to thank Clive for starting this post. I usually just hunt by tone and if I get the right tone, I look at the depth meter, then I look at the FE-CO numbers and screen. If all coincide, I dig. Don't give up on a signal with iron in the bottom right, I have plenty of rusty dimes and quarters that came out of the same hole with a big ole nail or bolt.

 

[Jason in Enid]

yes, so have I, but I havent dug those unless it had a strong coin hit as well.

 

[cjc]

This is what I'm liking about the Equinox. Many of the suggestions in my CTX book are now part of the software. For example using some disc to promote better audio target assignment. (an audio option in the 50 tone mode "Tone Pitch Gap"),- forget Auto Sens except for worst case--in salt water, anyhow (Eq has none like they recognised just how much processing power it takes up), and the general Signal Balancing approach (Low Transmit Power in Beach 2 and in black sand)--all things that take a while to learn are needed with the CTX. Auto might seem okay until you come up against the big coil's signal to noise ratio...
cjc

 

[TrpnBils]

That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like.

Can Joe or anyone else that knows what he means elaborate on this? My deepest coin with the CTX was a large cent with a bunch of nails around it a year or two ago at about a foot. I'm curious as to what he's referring to here with what it "really sounds like". Over all, aside from that large cent, I'm disappointed with my lack of deeper targets with this detector.

 

[PryorCreekJoe]

That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like.

Can Joe or anyone else that knows what he means elaborate on this? My deepest coin with the CTX was a large cent with a bunch of nails around it a year or two ago at about a foot. I'm curious as to what he's referring to here with what it "really sounds like". Over all, aside from that large cent, I'm disappointed with my lack of deeper targets with this detector.

This one of those things that I just know and is hard to explain but I'll try.
I run Ferrous Coin and have tones assigned to bins. So I only have a maximum of 5 tones or as few as 2 to listen for. My "silver" bin is set up for the highest tone. I can set all the rest of the bins to the same low tone and in reality run in 2Tone if I desire. So it is either a "yes" or a "no" that I am listening for. BUT a 6 inch deep screamer is not a subtle bump in the threshold of a 12+ inch silver. It is just a slight chirp. And if it is tilted and not flat it is fainter than that. You just have to recognize that "bump" above the threshold and investigate it. You have to work the coil around it constantly moving the coil gathering more and more of the signal to discern if it is probably a piece of iron that is giving a false high tone signal or a coin that is just barely sounding. By keeping the coil constantly moving you are gathering more and more info on the target so you can decide to dig or not. The constant movement of the coil is gathering more and more samples of the target and compiling it to decide if it is more silver like or more iron like. It is just like statistics. The more samples (in this case swings of the coil) the higher the degree of accuracy of identifying the target. The only real way of knowing what is under the coil is to dig it up. Just remember the tone and it's subtleties so that you know the next time what you suspect it might be. After a few hundred of these "chirps", you have a pretty good idea what it might be. I also us Black Widow Headphones. They cut out about 24 decibels of ambient noise and have a booster circuit in them. My hearing is bad but they allow me to hear the subtle bump or chirp in the threshold that alerts me to further investigate the target. Personally I like to have a coin and nail co-existing in the hold as they both show up on the screen and I know for sure to dig. Most hunters are swinging the coil just covering as much ground as possible and swinging to fast to even hear the deep coins. I love old hunted out ground as that is where I dig a lot of old deep silver. Hope this helps you understand a little better the deep "slight chirp".

PCJ

 

[TrpnBils]

Guarantee I'm one of the ones swinging too fast. I'm really making it an effort to work on that lately, but only getting out for about 2 hours a week makes it really hard not to just burn ground with the coil. I know for a fact I'm missing stuff by doing that, it's just a hard habit to break. What you're saying makes sense, and I appreciate the effort to try and explain it like this. I usually run in Pitch hold mode, and I've definitely had the threshold change to a high tone without it giving an actual response that would show up in normal mode, for example. I wonder if that's maybe something that would be a very deep coin

 

[PryorCreekJoe]

Guarantee I'm one of the ones swinging too fast. I'm really making it an effort to work on that lately, but only getting out for about 2 hours a week makes it really hard not to just burn ground with the coil. I know for a fact I'm missing stuff by doing that, it's just a hard habit to break. What you're saying makes sense, and I appreciate the effort to try and explain it like this. I usually run in Pitch hold mode, and I've definitely had the threshold change to a high tone without it giving an actual response that would show up in normal mode, for example. I wonder if that's maybe something that would be a very deep coin

A consistent break in threshold is "something". One sure way of finding out is to dig it. Occasionally it happens to be iron so decayed that it is just more or less a "halo" and you find nothing. I just call it a "ghost hole" and move on to the next target. We have to remember that it is called "Metal" detecting and not "Coin" detecting. LOL The detector is only giving an opinion based on the information that it receives back from the coil. It is not an exact science. Geez, how boring would that be. I love to have a tone give my heart a reason to beat fast. Ha ha
Metal detecting is a lot like golf. If every weekend golfer would slow down their swing to a 3/4 swing, they would take 10 strokes off of their score. When you slow down your swing of your coil, you will hear a lot of targets that other wise are just missed. If you think of your coil as a flashlight and your coil sends out a signal just like a flashlight sends out a beam of light. If you swing a flashlight as fast as you swing your coil you are going to miss seeing a lot of things. You slow down the swing of the flashlight and you may see all kinds of things that you missed by swinging it fast. If my wife says she hears something outside and I go out to investigate, I move that flashlight very slowly to see every square inch that I can to see what was making the noise. Make sense?

Joe

 

[sube]

That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like.

Can Joe or anyone else that knows what he means elaborate on this? My deepest coin with the CTX was a large cent with a bunch of nails around it a year or two ago at about a foot. I'm curious as to what he's referring to here with what it "really sounds like". Over all, aside from that large cent, I'm disappointed with my lack of deeper targets with this detector.

This one of those things that I just know and is hard to explain but I'll try.
I run Ferrous Coin and have tones assigned to bins. So I only have a maximum of 5 tones or as few as 2 to listen for. My "silver" bin is set up for the highest tone. I can set all the rest of the bins to the same low tone and in reality run in 2Tone if I desire. So it is either a "yes" or a "no" that I am listening for. BUT a 6 inch deep screamer is not a subtle bump in the threshold of a 12+ inch silver. It is just a slight chirp. And if it is tilted and not flat it is fainter than that. You just have to recognize that "bump" above the threshold and investigate it. You have to work the coil around it constantly moving the coil gathering more and more of the signal to discern if it is probably a piece of iron that is giving a false high tone signal or a coin that is just barely sounding. By keeping the coil constantly moving you are gathering more and more info on the target so you can decide to dig or not. The constant movement of the coil is gathering more and more samples of the target and compiling it to decide if it is more silver like or more iron like. It is just like statistics. The more samples (in this case swings of the coil) the higher the degree of accuracy of identifying the target. The only real way of knowing what is under the coil is to dig it up. Just remember the tone and it's subtleties so that you know the next time what you suspect it might be. After a few hundred of these "chirps", you have a pretty good idea what it might be. I also us Black Widow Headphones. They cut out about 24 decibels of ambient noise and have a booster circuit in them. My hearing is bad but they allow me to hear the subtle bump or chirp in the threshold that alerts me to further investigate the target. Personally I like to have a coin and nail co-existing in the hold as they both show up on the screen and I know for sure to dig. Most hunters are swinging the coil just covering as much ground as possible and swinging to fast to even hear the deep coins. I love old hunted out ground as that is where I dig a lot of old deep silver. Hope this helps you understand a little better the deep "slight chirp".

PCJ

Joe I do basically the same as you when hunting deep but I reverse what you do .I hunt in pinpoint sizing then I go to my disc mode .The reason I hunt in reverse is because of falsing if I get a thrown false a metal item that's not under the coil I can find the exact spot that the coin or nail is at then I will switch to disc mode and as you circle the target . Also being in pinpoint I have less falses to contend with pinpoint does not false as much as being in disc mode which let's me check more real targets and less false targets .When circling the known target sometimes I will get a hit with just the tip of the coil now the center of the target is 5 inches away from where the center of the coil is compared to where the target actually is so I know that it's not a false and the sound is coming from the real target but just at the tip of the coil ..

Now when circling the target the first thing with the target at the tip of the coil is it repeating when I go over the center of the target if I get a null and no iron grunt in disc mode I can assume that there are two targets together non-ferrous and ferrous they have cancelled out the audio because you can't have audio from the two tones at once but target trace will still display the non-ferrous and ferrous traces on the screen unless to deep . If the signal turns to iron when I sweep the center of the target with disc mode I leave it .

Now setting
Ferrous coin
pitch hold
Fe line at 34 I have to hear the nails.
Tone profile combine
manual sensitivity at 30 if I can the only thing I'm looking for here is the courser has to be stable and not wondering around the screen .
My nickel bin is set at 1200HZ 12.09 to 12.15 and 12.29 to 12.50 at 1200HZ all the rest are at 300HZ iron bin at 75 HZ
Fast on
Target trace pinpoint sizing and target trace on

Second screen same as first but with 32 to 35 line disc out Fe line can stay at 34 and high thrash as my tone profile ..This is so I don't have to listen to the iron because I have the nails disc out .

Now as for hunting using these settings your going to find that small targets are going to sound , depth the same as deep targets no target trace just sound usually a shallow 4 inch plug gets these and you can move on but if you have a target still in the hole and it sized right both ways then dig it to see what's so deep . Foil and can slaw are set to 300 Hz iron is disc out on screen 2 so the only targets that high tone well be targets in your bins with high tone which eliminates most of the shallow foil and iron .

Clive gave some good advice about discing a little bit just to get rid of the ground noise

These are not a ground covering settings there for finding what others pass over .

As to Jason's ?s on the one way hit this happens when a coin is tight with iron if a part of say a coin under a nail is hit first you will get a response that would be a response with the tip of the coil moving to center the target and it go's by by thinking you have a false things to look for did it go silent over the center of the target is trace building from 12.20 to 12.46 or is the target in the iron bin trying to come out and is not lock in the corner like true iron would be .

Now when running higher sensitivity 23 and up in manual pinpoint sizing dose not have a edge in depth as lower sensitivity #s but it builds a better trace with higher sensitivity . Now if we run auto 23 you will see a depth difference between the 2 not until your at 27 or higher in auto well you see similar depth between the two .

Now when using target trace in pinpoint mode you may have to sweep the target 5 or 6 times to get a trace to show it's just building more trace as you pass over the target more times it could start with no trace but after sweeping and building the target it well become red unless just to deep . sube