im doing good with my explorer and understand it pretty much,but im a little confused about iron mask,when i hunt old foundations i pretty much just use the select and check coins which shades out about 50 percent of the screen.i do find coins this way but discoverd that the threshold hum just about completlly dissapears when i am close to the foundations or around bottle dumps ect,which i guess is the machine masking out the iron,so i threw a penny down on the ground and it would not pick it up,this is not good i figured i better ask why.i have tried running with iron mask from 10 to 16 but it overloads my ears.am i missing coins this way
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confused about iron mask
- Thread starter todd9146
- Start date
There are 1024 notches for rejecting and accepting targets. We can select any combination of notches. As you know a rejected notch is black but an accepted one is clear. The visual display allows the user to select notches to be accepted or rejected on two axis. If we only used conductivity and one axis then we could select or clear notches similar to how it is done with the DFX which has 191 notches. Also, we can adjust the width of the notch by how many pixels we black or clear. Each pixel is a pair of digital reading such as 3/28. A wider notch would be something like 3/28, 3/29, 3/30. Not only can we accept and reject notches in any combination but we can select the width of the notch.
Iron Mask is a little different in that we must select ALL notches for a conductivity zone, there are 32,in each of 32 zones, in any of 16 steps based on ferrous content. On most of these machines 0 is considered the line between ferrous and non-ferrous but on the display the 32 zones for ferrous content are further divided so ferrous zone 16 is IM 0 and ferrous zone 32 is IM-15. As an example a -16 accepts all metal of all ferrous content at all levels of conductivity. A mask of -15 rejects all conductive levels of metals with the next lower level of ferrous content less than all metals of the most ferrous content.
You know all this but what happens if we have a penny that is rejected if 50% of the screen is clear and the other half black? The soil and or co-located targets will cause a target to skew to the left. Let's say a penny reads 5/28 or somewhere in that area and is skewed to the left so it now reads in the black area. The penny is rejected or at times depending on the co-located metal or soil will read in some directions of the sweep but not in others.
Also, assume the threshold is in null due to the rejection of refined iron. This is not the same as silent threshold although I have see this posted. If the threshold is driven into null it must recover before it will detect a target. Iron in a foundation can be drive the detector into null and indeed the coin is not detected or if the soil or co-located metal has skewed the reading for the penny into the rejection region.
The solution is we have to use all metal and sort through the iron in the situation you describe as the coin is being skewed into the rejection area. This is a primary reason why some user like IM-16 for all metal detecting. It does not matter which notch a coin hits as it will be detected.
The idea of iron mask is to hunt at one level of discrimination and when a coin is skewed to the left we can UNMASK the target by switching to an iron mask that is more ferrous than the ferrous content of the coin. If the coin is skewed to 17/25 we can unmask the coin by switching to an iron mask with a higher minus level than IM-2. Notice that the preset for coins is at what would be an iron mask of -3. If using the preset coins then a coin that is skewed to the left past a ferrous reading of 19/? will be rejected. I may be off a digit or two but this is the general idea of iron mask and why a coin can be rejected with a 50% black and clear display.
Iron Mask is a little different in that we must select ALL notches for a conductivity zone, there are 32,in each of 32 zones, in any of 16 steps based on ferrous content. On most of these machines 0 is considered the line between ferrous and non-ferrous but on the display the 32 zones for ferrous content are further divided so ferrous zone 16 is IM 0 and ferrous zone 32 is IM-15. As an example a -16 accepts all metal of all ferrous content at all levels of conductivity. A mask of -15 rejects all conductive levels of metals with the next lower level of ferrous content less than all metals of the most ferrous content.
You know all this but what happens if we have a penny that is rejected if 50% of the screen is clear and the other half black? The soil and or co-located targets will cause a target to skew to the left. Let's say a penny reads 5/28 or somewhere in that area and is skewed to the left so it now reads in the black area. The penny is rejected or at times depending on the co-located metal or soil will read in some directions of the sweep but not in others.
Also, assume the threshold is in null due to the rejection of refined iron. This is not the same as silent threshold although I have see this posted. If the threshold is driven into null it must recover before it will detect a target. Iron in a foundation can be drive the detector into null and indeed the coin is not detected or if the soil or co-located metal has skewed the reading for the penny into the rejection region.
The solution is we have to use all metal and sort through the iron in the situation you describe as the coin is being skewed into the rejection area. This is a primary reason why some user like IM-16 for all metal detecting. It does not matter which notch a coin hits as it will be detected.
The idea of iron mask is to hunt at one level of discrimination and when a coin is skewed to the left we can UNMASK the target by switching to an iron mask that is more ferrous than the ferrous content of the coin. If the coin is skewed to 17/25 we can unmask the coin by switching to an iron mask with a higher minus level than IM-2. Notice that the preset for coins is at what would be an iron mask of -3. If using the preset coins then a coin that is skewed to the left past a ferrous reading of 19/? will be rejected. I may be off a digit or two but this is the general idea of iron mask and why a coin can be rejected with a 50% black and clear display.
ok,kinda understand,a little confused on which would be better say accept coins or -3 or are they the same?i understand now that a coin may be pulled left by some other target,and possibly nulled out,i also now understand that the ex wont pick up another target untill its threashold returns ,so i guess with the imask on or coins selected i probably will miss most coins.is this correct?
The preset coins program should detect most US coins in MOST soil. Iron minerals and refined iron such as in a foundation will skew the reading. I have seen some Indian Heads read all the way to the left in the IM-15 at upper left with one direction of the sweep then jump all the way to upper right of the display at 0/30.
If you want to detect ALL coins in ALL soil conditions then we have to dig all targets which means IM-16 or a clear screen. The problem is DISCRIMINATION and not soil minerals or the detector not being able to detect the coin at depth. The program is telling the detector to null on that specific ferrous and conductive reading.
That is just something all users with any detectors has to deal with. IM-15, -14, -13, somewhere in that area works nice but you are going to hit a lot of trash in the area you describe and if there is a lot of iron then since most iron hits at the upper left and in the IM-15 zone then there is going to be a lot of nulls.
I guess we are between a hard place and rock in that we can use IM-16 and have very very few nulls or use IM-15 and have a lot of nulls in heavy iron. We all have to find the place between all metal and discrimination, nulls, and depth we are willing to live with. A smaller coil will help some but we still have the same problems but on a smaller scale.
If you want to detect ALL coins in ALL soil conditions then we have to dig all targets which means IM-16 or a clear screen. The problem is DISCRIMINATION and not soil minerals or the detector not being able to detect the coin at depth. The program is telling the detector to null on that specific ferrous and conductive reading.
That is just something all users with any detectors has to deal with. IM-15, -14, -13, somewhere in that area works nice but you are going to hit a lot of trash in the area you describe and if there is a lot of iron then since most iron hits at the upper left and in the IM-15 zone then there is going to be a lot of nulls.
I guess we are between a hard place and rock in that we can use IM-16 and have very very few nulls or use IM-15 and have a lot of nulls in heavy iron. We all have to find the place between all metal and discrimination, nulls, and depth we are willing to live with. A smaller coil will help some but we still have the same problems but on a smaller scale.
Chris(SoCenWI)
Well-known member
Todd,
I'll give it a try. Basically iron mask is just a discrimination pattern that is easily adjustable. If you are hunting with the coin program you are for all intents and purposes doing the same as you would be in Iron Mask 0 to -4 or so; lots of the left of the screen blacked out. In the coin pattern instead of straight up and down it is slanted abit. In the coin program you can't easily adjust the amount of black area, in iron mask you can. There is nothing magic about iron mask. Only reason it is called this is because almost all ferrous items hit on the left side, blacking out the left discriminates out iron and other ferrous materials.
When you are detecting you can either listen to everything- blank screen, or discriminate out items. If you discriminate out items the detector will null when the coil is over that sort of material.
If you are in lots of iron and are using iron mask or any other discrimination on the left side of the screen you will get a null almost 100% of the time. If you are using an open screen you will get tons of signals. People do both and make good finds. I personally find the constant null more bothersome than all the noise, but that is because that is what I am used to.
The reason to run less iron mask is this: Find a clean piece of ground, put a silver quarter on the ground and set a nail on top of it. Circle the target while swinging the coil over it. At one small angle and 180 degrees opposite you will get an almost perfect coin signal. At almost any other angle you will get an iron sound. There will be a small region where you get something that sounds somewhere in between; generally the curser will be hitting much farther left than it would for a pure silver hit but still not register iron(use an open screen with ferrous sounds for this experiment). Less discrimination increases your chances of hearing this in between sound. Keep circling and try the coin program or varying degrees of iron mask.
What this shows is how difficult it is to find coins in high trash and that you have to hit things from almost the exact right angle when you are hunting in trash. You've just seen what one nail can do, many sites you will have dozens under your coil at any given time.
You may not pick up that penny on top of the ground no matter what your settings are because of the underlying trash. You might get it by lowering the sensitivity in manual down to the single digits so it doesn't see trash under the coin. Unfortunately this doesn't do diddly for the deeper coins under the trash.
Bottom line is that we are missing a ton of coins, but the explorers do better than most other machines.
Chris
I'll give it a try. Basically iron mask is just a discrimination pattern that is easily adjustable. If you are hunting with the coin program you are for all intents and purposes doing the same as you would be in Iron Mask 0 to -4 or so; lots of the left of the screen blacked out. In the coin pattern instead of straight up and down it is slanted abit. In the coin program you can't easily adjust the amount of black area, in iron mask you can. There is nothing magic about iron mask. Only reason it is called this is because almost all ferrous items hit on the left side, blacking out the left discriminates out iron and other ferrous materials.
When you are detecting you can either listen to everything- blank screen, or discriminate out items. If you discriminate out items the detector will null when the coil is over that sort of material.
If you are in lots of iron and are using iron mask or any other discrimination on the left side of the screen you will get a null almost 100% of the time. If you are using an open screen you will get tons of signals. People do both and make good finds. I personally find the constant null more bothersome than all the noise, but that is because that is what I am used to.
The reason to run less iron mask is this: Find a clean piece of ground, put a silver quarter on the ground and set a nail on top of it. Circle the target while swinging the coil over it. At one small angle and 180 degrees opposite you will get an almost perfect coin signal. At almost any other angle you will get an iron sound. There will be a small region where you get something that sounds somewhere in between; generally the curser will be hitting much farther left than it would for a pure silver hit but still not register iron(use an open screen with ferrous sounds for this experiment). Less discrimination increases your chances of hearing this in between sound. Keep circling and try the coin program or varying degrees of iron mask.
What this shows is how difficult it is to find coins in high trash and that you have to hit things from almost the exact right angle when you are hunting in trash. You've just seen what one nail can do, many sites you will have dozens under your coil at any given time.
You may not pick up that penny on top of the ground no matter what your settings are because of the underlying trash. You might get it by lowering the sensitivity in manual down to the single digits so it doesn't see trash under the coin. Unfortunately this doesn't do diddly for the deeper coins under the trash.
Bottom line is that we are missing a ton of coins, but the explorers do better than most other machines.
Chris
When you say it wont pick up a penny on top of the ground reminded me of when I tried to run my sensitivity at 32 auto and it would not pick up a dime on top of the ground unless I touched it. Set it in manual 20 and it was better and 16 manual or auto was the best. I feel the reason was in auto in the high setting it was over compensating and in manual at the higher setting it was seeing too much trash so it couldnt see the coin. Sensitivity is not only sensitive to the good targets, but the bad also.
Now when I am in a area and get a lot of nulling in my patterns I will switch to iron mask at a -15 setting and if it is very noisy I will try my dime on the ground and lower the sensitivity if it is not getting good depth.
Rick
Now when I am in a area and get a lot of nulling in my patterns I will switch to iron mask at a -15 setting and if it is very noisy I will try my dime on the ground and lower the sensitivity if it is not getting good depth.
Rick
Captain Kirk
New member
Cody,
We commonly use the expression "the coin is pulled to the left by iron". We could just as well have said that "the iron is pulled to the right by the coin". We use these expressions because they simply convey an idea. Unfortunately, these expressions might cause confusion for some. What follows is not intended to "pick nits" by rather to shed additional light on the subject without confusing the issue too much.
It is my feeling that it is beneficial to understand the concept of a composite target. The magnetic field is somehow disturbed by presence of a target. It is the disturbance that produces a target signal. There are two primary factors that effect the disturbance of the magnetic field:
#1 the total target matrix seen by the search coil at any point in time
Note that this is constantly changing as the coil is swept
#2 how the coil got to its present position.
#2.1 how fast the coil is moving
#2.1 the direction from which the coil is approaching the targets
#3 Consider the case when there are just two targets in close proximity. Further suppose that we are hunting with a completely open screen (nothing discriminated out). As we sweep the coil, then we hear a composite signal from both targets. The target signal depends upon the location of each target relative to the coil.
#3.1 One target may dominate for a portion of the sweep and the other target may dominate for another portion of the sweep.
#3.2 This relationship varies with time because of the motion of the coil.
#3.3 If we sweep too rapidly, then we get a "blurring together" of the target.
#3.4 If we sweep slowly, then we get better target separation, but only to a point because if we sweep too slowly, then the target signal falls off significantly.
GENERAL CONCLUSIONS
If I am looking for valuable targets (with a low to modest ferrous component) in the midst of predominate iron trash, then I switch to the Ferrous mode with a wide open screen. I also sweep very slowly so that I can get a good look at any good targets hiding amongst the iron. You get to the point where the low pitched "growl" of the iron is easy to ignore. Any signal that is not the "growl" becomes relatively easy to pick out.
This approach may not work for everyone, but it does for me.
HH,
Glenn
We commonly use the expression "the coin is pulled to the left by iron". We could just as well have said that "the iron is pulled to the right by the coin". We use these expressions because they simply convey an idea. Unfortunately, these expressions might cause confusion for some. What follows is not intended to "pick nits" by rather to shed additional light on the subject without confusing the issue too much.
It is my feeling that it is beneficial to understand the concept of a composite target. The magnetic field is somehow disturbed by presence of a target. It is the disturbance that produces a target signal. There are two primary factors that effect the disturbance of the magnetic field:
#1 the total target matrix seen by the search coil at any point in time
Note that this is constantly changing as the coil is swept
#2 how the coil got to its present position.
#2.1 how fast the coil is moving
#2.1 the direction from which the coil is approaching the targets
#3 Consider the case when there are just two targets in close proximity. Further suppose that we are hunting with a completely open screen (nothing discriminated out). As we sweep the coil, then we hear a composite signal from both targets. The target signal depends upon the location of each target relative to the coil.
#3.1 One target may dominate for a portion of the sweep and the other target may dominate for another portion of the sweep.
#3.2 This relationship varies with time because of the motion of the coil.
#3.3 If we sweep too rapidly, then we get a "blurring together" of the target.
#3.4 If we sweep slowly, then we get better target separation, but only to a point because if we sweep too slowly, then the target signal falls off significantly.
GENERAL CONCLUSIONS
If I am looking for valuable targets (with a low to modest ferrous component) in the midst of predominate iron trash, then I switch to the Ferrous mode with a wide open screen. I also sweep very slowly so that I can get a good look at any good targets hiding amongst the iron. You get to the point where the low pitched "growl" of the iron is easy to ignore. Any signal that is not the "growl" becomes relatively easy to pick out.
This approach may not work for everyone, but it does for me.
HH,
Glenn
I was about to make a post asking if anyone knew where you were and check up on you. I have seen very few post lately and am boring myself to the point of not being able to stand it. I started out a few years back trying to be very detailed and exact but came to understand my limitation so started to get more general and take a lot of liberties in the explanations. It is fairly easy to see how refined iron is a problem and that we see a "bunch" of targets in the soil matrix that the electronics has to deal with. It is amazing how well the detector do this but they do get the job done. I can kind of see the electromagnetic field all bent out of shape by refined iron how a lot strikes one target but we starve another.
It is target in the minerals that is not all that clear to me. I have talked to a number of folks that believe they know what the halo is of a target. I am frankly not sure but see this as something that is difficult to explain other than the halo exist at some level depending on the soil, how long the target has been in the soil, and type of metal of the target. The minerals exist in all directions and different concentrations to the target in the soil. However, the magnetic flux strikes the target and mineral is reflected in the receiver in such a way that a coin will be different than if in the air.
I don't think there are problems with other equipment that ID targets using eddy current induction such as a coin changer, slot machine, or industrial equipment used to pick different types of metals from the trash ones. It is the soil matrix that causes the problem and I assume the iron minerals and to some extent salts plus other conductive particles in the soil.
Anyhow I very much appreciate your comments and always look forward to your observations. It get easy to simply say pull a coin one way or the other and go with the flow. I think I have noticed that the soil matrix will cause the signal to hit in the left area of the screen and at a lower level of conductivity. I think we see that with an alloy so in some way the minerals appear to be alloyed with the coin or connected in some way.
I have often thought of all the pain we put that poor old electromagnetic field through when we sweep the coil and the countless changes that take place during one tiny fraction of a second as the coil moves. I greatly admire the engineers that believed it could be done and we have the detector to enjoy.
Ok, enough of this, please jump in as you know an old professor starts to believe his own lies and that is when it gets dangerous. Ha ha
It is target in the minerals that is not all that clear to me. I have talked to a number of folks that believe they know what the halo is of a target. I am frankly not sure but see this as something that is difficult to explain other than the halo exist at some level depending on the soil, how long the target has been in the soil, and type of metal of the target. The minerals exist in all directions and different concentrations to the target in the soil. However, the magnetic flux strikes the target and mineral is reflected in the receiver in such a way that a coin will be different than if in the air.
I don't think there are problems with other equipment that ID targets using eddy current induction such as a coin changer, slot machine, or industrial equipment used to pick different types of metals from the trash ones. It is the soil matrix that causes the problem and I assume the iron minerals and to some extent salts plus other conductive particles in the soil.
Anyhow I very much appreciate your comments and always look forward to your observations. It get easy to simply say pull a coin one way or the other and go with the flow. I think I have noticed that the soil matrix will cause the signal to hit in the left area of the screen and at a lower level of conductivity. I think we see that with an alloy so in some way the minerals appear to be alloyed with the coin or connected in some way.
I have often thought of all the pain we put that poor old electromagnetic field through when we sweep the coil and the countless changes that take place during one tiny fraction of a second as the coil moves. I greatly admire the engineers that believed it could be done and we have the detector to enjoy.
Ok, enough of this, please jump in as you know an old professor starts to believe his own lies and that is when it gets dangerous. Ha ha
Captain Kirk
New member
Cody,
I have not posted much lately because I do not have much to say that I have not already said. I do not say much about my findings because I consider them to be much less exciting that the posting of others. I am "squeaking" out a few silvers, but they seem to be getting rather scare in the areas I have been hunting. We have been searching for some new areas to hunt with the objectives to get out the easy stuff first and then return for the more challenging targets later.
I still believe that I have a lot to learn regarding those targets that "iffy". This relates to a combination of recognizing the tones both in terms of pitch and quality of the sounds (e.g. round, flutey and etc.). Garry Hertel has those mastered and is having a difficult time "learning me" how to do it.
In my post I was addressing such things as rusty nails and not the mineralization of the ground. Other than "hot rocks" I have not found ground mineralization to be much of a problem.
So far as how the magnetic field is effected by the Ferrous and Conductivity characteristics I will state the following over-simplified explanation.
EFFECTS OF FERROUS TARGETS
The ferrous target has lower permeability to the magnetic field and will concentrate the magnetic field in the target. This is much like a ferrite rod antenna. This effect is instantaneous and works all the way down to DC. One way you can test this is to do the "iron filings on a piece of paper" test using a small permanent magnetic and then trace the magnetic field lines on a piece of paper. Place a nail on the paper with the filings and see how the field distorts in the region of the nail.
EFFECTS OF CONDUCTIVE TARGETS
A electric field is generated in a plane perpendicular to a changing magnetic field of the coil. This electric field will produce eddy currents in a conductor perpendicular to the magnetic field. The eddy currents will generate a opposing magnetic field that greatly reduces the magnetic field in the conductor. The net result is that the forcing magnetic field goes around the conductor instead of through it. The strength of the eddy currents is dependent upon the conductivity of the target.
This phenomenon has a time constant to it which can be measured.
These difference allow us to measure the conductivity and ferrous components of a target.
Please excuse me for addressing this subject outside the Classroom forum.
HH,
Glenn
I have not posted much lately because I do not have much to say that I have not already said. I do not say much about my findings because I consider them to be much less exciting that the posting of others. I am "squeaking" out a few silvers, but they seem to be getting rather scare in the areas I have been hunting. We have been searching for some new areas to hunt with the objectives to get out the easy stuff first and then return for the more challenging targets later.
I still believe that I have a lot to learn regarding those targets that "iffy". This relates to a combination of recognizing the tones both in terms of pitch and quality of the sounds (e.g. round, flutey and etc.). Garry Hertel has those mastered and is having a difficult time "learning me" how to do it.
In my post I was addressing such things as rusty nails and not the mineralization of the ground. Other than "hot rocks" I have not found ground mineralization to be much of a problem.
So far as how the magnetic field is effected by the Ferrous and Conductivity characteristics I will state the following over-simplified explanation.
EFFECTS OF FERROUS TARGETS
The ferrous target has lower permeability to the magnetic field and will concentrate the magnetic field in the target. This is much like a ferrite rod antenna. This effect is instantaneous and works all the way down to DC. One way you can test this is to do the "iron filings on a piece of paper" test using a small permanent magnetic and then trace the magnetic field lines on a piece of paper. Place a nail on the paper with the filings and see how the field distorts in the region of the nail.
EFFECTS OF CONDUCTIVE TARGETS
A electric field is generated in a plane perpendicular to a changing magnetic field of the coil. This electric field will produce eddy currents in a conductor perpendicular to the magnetic field. The eddy currents will generate a opposing magnetic field that greatly reduces the magnetic field in the conductor. The net result is that the forcing magnetic field goes around the conductor instead of through it. The strength of the eddy currents is dependent upon the conductivity of the target.
This phenomenon has a time constant to it which can be measured.
These difference allow us to measure the conductivity and ferrous components of a target.
Please excuse me for addressing this subject outside the Classroom forum.
HH,
Glenn
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
First I have good news on the threshold issue...tone ID updates instantly as you sweep and does not suffer the threshold related delay the cursor does on your screen. Thats good news because hunting in the iron is more about tone ID than the cursor location e.g. there is no reason to even worry about the threshold and cursor until the tone ID tells you a coin may be lurking.
Here's how I process what the machine is telling me...note When I say coin assume also button, ring, and virtually any round target.
1. Does it sound like a coin? 80%
2. Does it behave like a coin? 20%
If you are hunting in medium to heavy iron site conditions many people have the best luck running in iron mask mode and using ferrous tones. Iron sounds low, silver high, thats as simple as it gets. The ideal iron mask setting would be -16 e.g. zero descrimination but its not easy to start out being an iron mask -16 hunter on day one.
Therefore to ease into this type of hunting I recommend editing a smartfind screen to look like a iron mask screen at say -10 e.g. with the left side of the screen blacked out aprox the same amount iron mask -10 does. Then set your iron mask screen to -16 wide open. Now hunt using the smartfind screen and when you think you have an iffy target, switch to your iron mask screen and sweep it again from various angles. This is altogether a more pleasant way to get started hunting in iron mask mode verses jumping right into iron mask -16 and becoming overwhelmed by a thousand rusty nail signals.
Now when you do switch to iron mask -16 to double check iffy signals, take advantage of the learning opportunity. Note how much more robust the signals are with no descrimination. Note that it is generally easier to locate the nail or nails in relation to the coin. When nails are descriminated out they can really polute a wide area of ground with a null and the null is sticky, the Explorer doesn't like to let go of it. Nails will often cast a null out over the top of a coin along the length of the nail. Ask some iron mask hunters how often they find a nail laying flat and poking into the side of their hole after recovering a coin that gave an iffy signal.
Will I miss coins by descriminating out iron? Even when I have my iron mask set to -16 e.g. zero descrimination I routinely find coins that I would rate as below poor in signal quality. Its incredible just how bad some coins can sound in the iron. Yet as bad as they sound there is a fraction of the signal that peeks through and sounds like a coin and thats enough to get my attention. When I have increased the iron mask on these signals in testing, I found that they most often vanish altogether, nothing but a solid null. So clearly the answer is yes, you can miss coins if you descriminate out the iron.
The site then comes into play. If the site is loaded with coins and easy targets you might as well run some descrimination and pick off all the easy signals as a first step. You can then come back later running iron mask to gather up the ones hiding in the iron. But most sites where I live have already been detected to death for 20 years so I find that most of the good targets that are left, are those that have been hiding in the iron and trash. Therefore I never descriminate out the iron.
Good targets will often improve in quality in iron mask -16 now that the signal is not getting chopped up by the iron mask descrimination. Iron falsing on the other hand becomes more obviously iron. Pinpointing is improved because the null is not pulling the coin signals off center. I tell you I mangled many a coin with my digger before I switched to iron mask -16.
1. Does it sound like a coin?
Coins (and round targets) have a unique shape to the sound as you sweep them. If you drew the sound wave it would look like a mountain, rising up to a peak then down again in volume and to a degree in pitch also. Often they ring like a bycycle bell or sound fluty like several slightly different notes playing on a flute. Nails and junk on the other hand often sound flat and mono-toned. They also tend to pop at the end, especially rusty crowncaps. So with the Explorer its not just high tones or low tones, its the shape of the sound as you sweep the target.
2. Okay lets say you get a signal and it "sounds" like a coin. Next question, does it behave like a coin? This is a two part question.
2.a Does it behave like a coin when you sweep it from different directions? Coins tend to stay put once you get the coil centered over them when swept from different directions. Nails on the other hand frequently seem to move around on you. You think you are centered over the target, but when you sweep it from another direction it seems to move a few inches. Thats often the nail shooting a signal out sideways along its length. The exception to this rule is a coin very much on edge that can also shoot a signal out sideways. But the next step will often root them out.
2.b Check the cursor on the screen. The iffy signals will jump around on you, often left and right between iron and coin. But coins behave like a coin, they will often hang around their assigned area of the screen more than they jump left into the iron and when they do jump left to the iron area, they don't jump all the way to the very top left like a nail will. Nails on the other hand jump to but they are very consistent. They jump between the top/left corner to the right edge of the screen, about 1/4 inch down from the top, with half the cursor off the screen. About the only coin that will ID there is a silver half and generally silver halfs don't jump at all. Thats the rusty nail bounce pattern, dig a few to convince yourself, I do from time to time, enough to know its reliable. In "rare" cases a coin can camp out over in the iron zone of the screen and stay there. Some buttons and an assortment of odd finds will do the same. I once had a paper thin half reale do that. But they tend to hang out around the iron mask -14 to -12 area and they don't get up in the far top/left corner like a nail will do. I will generally dig a target that does that. Again its rare but I have found a number of indian heads and odd finds that way.
As someone else mentioned, after a while your brain starts to ignore the low iron tones, they fade into the background with the threshold hum and you hardly notice them. I personally had a difficult time trying to hunt in iron mask -16 at first but now I don't even notice them. If you ease into this over a few weeks gradually you can hunt with less and less iron mask. In fact once you become used to hunting with zero iron descriminated out you may get so used to the full robust signals zero descrimination provides that the chopped up descriminated signals become annoying and you won't like descriminating out the iron.
Well thats more than I have written in a while, I hope it helps.
Here's how I process what the machine is telling me...note When I say coin assume also button, ring, and virtually any round target.
1. Does it sound like a coin? 80%
2. Does it behave like a coin? 20%
If you are hunting in medium to heavy iron site conditions many people have the best luck running in iron mask mode and using ferrous tones. Iron sounds low, silver high, thats as simple as it gets. The ideal iron mask setting would be -16 e.g. zero descrimination but its not easy to start out being an iron mask -16 hunter on day one.
Therefore to ease into this type of hunting I recommend editing a smartfind screen to look like a iron mask screen at say -10 e.g. with the left side of the screen blacked out aprox the same amount iron mask -10 does. Then set your iron mask screen to -16 wide open. Now hunt using the smartfind screen and when you think you have an iffy target, switch to your iron mask screen and sweep it again from various angles. This is altogether a more pleasant way to get started hunting in iron mask mode verses jumping right into iron mask -16 and becoming overwhelmed by a thousand rusty nail signals.
Now when you do switch to iron mask -16 to double check iffy signals, take advantage of the learning opportunity. Note how much more robust the signals are with no descrimination. Note that it is generally easier to locate the nail or nails in relation to the coin. When nails are descriminated out they can really polute a wide area of ground with a null and the null is sticky, the Explorer doesn't like to let go of it. Nails will often cast a null out over the top of a coin along the length of the nail. Ask some iron mask hunters how often they find a nail laying flat and poking into the side of their hole after recovering a coin that gave an iffy signal.
Will I miss coins by descriminating out iron? Even when I have my iron mask set to -16 e.g. zero descrimination I routinely find coins that I would rate as below poor in signal quality. Its incredible just how bad some coins can sound in the iron. Yet as bad as they sound there is a fraction of the signal that peeks through and sounds like a coin and thats enough to get my attention. When I have increased the iron mask on these signals in testing, I found that they most often vanish altogether, nothing but a solid null. So clearly the answer is yes, you can miss coins if you descriminate out the iron.
The site then comes into play. If the site is loaded with coins and easy targets you might as well run some descrimination and pick off all the easy signals as a first step. You can then come back later running iron mask to gather up the ones hiding in the iron. But most sites where I live have already been detected to death for 20 years so I find that most of the good targets that are left, are those that have been hiding in the iron and trash. Therefore I never descriminate out the iron.
Good targets will often improve in quality in iron mask -16 now that the signal is not getting chopped up by the iron mask descrimination. Iron falsing on the other hand becomes more obviously iron. Pinpointing is improved because the null is not pulling the coin signals off center. I tell you I mangled many a coin with my digger before I switched to iron mask -16.
1. Does it sound like a coin?
Coins (and round targets) have a unique shape to the sound as you sweep them. If you drew the sound wave it would look like a mountain, rising up to a peak then down again in volume and to a degree in pitch also. Often they ring like a bycycle bell or sound fluty like several slightly different notes playing on a flute. Nails and junk on the other hand often sound flat and mono-toned. They also tend to pop at the end, especially rusty crowncaps. So with the Explorer its not just high tones or low tones, its the shape of the sound as you sweep the target.
2. Okay lets say you get a signal and it "sounds" like a coin. Next question, does it behave like a coin? This is a two part question.
2.a Does it behave like a coin when you sweep it from different directions? Coins tend to stay put once you get the coil centered over them when swept from different directions. Nails on the other hand frequently seem to move around on you. You think you are centered over the target, but when you sweep it from another direction it seems to move a few inches. Thats often the nail shooting a signal out sideways along its length. The exception to this rule is a coin very much on edge that can also shoot a signal out sideways. But the next step will often root them out.
2.b Check the cursor on the screen. The iffy signals will jump around on you, often left and right between iron and coin. But coins behave like a coin, they will often hang around their assigned area of the screen more than they jump left into the iron and when they do jump left to the iron area, they don't jump all the way to the very top left like a nail will. Nails on the other hand jump to but they are very consistent. They jump between the top/left corner to the right edge of the screen, about 1/4 inch down from the top, with half the cursor off the screen. About the only coin that will ID there is a silver half and generally silver halfs don't jump at all. Thats the rusty nail bounce pattern, dig a few to convince yourself, I do from time to time, enough to know its reliable. In "rare" cases a coin can camp out over in the iron zone of the screen and stay there. Some buttons and an assortment of odd finds will do the same. I once had a paper thin half reale do that. But they tend to hang out around the iron mask -14 to -12 area and they don't get up in the far top/left corner like a nail will do. I will generally dig a target that does that. Again its rare but I have found a number of indian heads and odd finds that way.
As someone else mentioned, after a while your brain starts to ignore the low iron tones, they fade into the background with the threshold hum and you hardly notice them. I personally had a difficult time trying to hunt in iron mask -16 at first but now I don't even notice them. If you ease into this over a few weeks gradually you can hunt with less and less iron mask. In fact once you become used to hunting with zero iron descriminated out you may get so used to the full robust signals zero descrimination provides that the chopped up descriminated signals become annoying and you won't like descriminating out the iron.
Well thats more than I have written in a while, I hope it helps.
Great information and explanations! Anyone that has used the Explorer or any TID detector know you have hit the "nail" on the head. Very good and the kind of post I like to print and keep. Charles did you read any of my post on taking one more step in using the Smarfind screen to duplicate IM-16? If we go to the menu and select all trash target even if we get them with a clear screen then we get ICONS for for the targets. It is nice to look at the screen and see a Nail/Screw, PUlltab or Foil, and the other ICONS. I have never paid much attention to ICONS but have found them to be the most accurate on any detector I have used. They are just one more way to tell if we have a good target or trash. Also, by decreasing the threshold tone as low as it will go, decreasing Audio Gain to 4, the iron is pushed into the background, almost, and the high tones are still easy to hear. With Audio1 or 2 we get a very interesting "tune" played by good targets and like knowing any old song we know that is the tune for a coin.
Again very good and informative posts and really explains how to use the Explorer for some real deep coin hunting and other goodies.
Again very good and informative posts and really explains how to use the Explorer for some real deep coin hunting and other goodies.
Chris(SoCenWI)
Well-known member
n/t
Captain Kirk
New member
n/t
bing! (L.A.)
New member
A lot of ideas were put in, all good, but it seems to me that Rick got it right. The main problem is that the guy's machine cant pick up a penny on top of the ground with his explorer in this particular site.
I think your sensitivty is set too high for the site and your machine is falsing like crazy. If this is true, then you IM setting is masking the falsing, hence the null, and the falsing is "masking" the good targets like the penny you just put on the ground. The problem may not be with IM as you suggest, but in the SENS level.
I suggest you set your machine to IM-16 and reduce the sensitivity to a point where you can swing the coil and identify individual targets. Swinging the coil should not sound like "D-Day" or a drum solo. You can get a more detailed explanation of this technique by reading chapter one in
usetheminelabexplorerlikeapro.blogspot.com
Then you can switch to one of the programs or techniques that was suggested earlier on this thread.
I think your sensitivty is set too high for the site and your machine is falsing like crazy. If this is true, then you IM setting is masking the falsing, hence the null, and the falsing is "masking" the good targets like the penny you just put on the ground. The problem may not be with IM as you suggest, but in the SENS level.
I suggest you set your machine to IM-16 and reduce the sensitivity to a point where you can swing the coil and identify individual targets. Swinging the coil should not sound like "D-Day" or a drum solo. You can get a more detailed explanation of this technique by reading chapter one in
usetheminelabexplorerlikeapro.blogspot.com
Then you can switch to one of the programs or techniques that was suggested earlier on this thread.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Cody thats a neat trick with the icons. The Explorer has many useful features some of which I don't use on a daily basis. I would only recommend caution using icons when you near the limits of the Explorer's ability to detect deep targets because the TID gets pretty iffy. This varies from site to site depending on soil, iron and trash. TID is accurate to rediculous depths at the beach for example while in our soil its good only to about 5 inches before it starts getting iffy.
Also the Explorer has a habbit of averaging disimilar targets together resulting in a TID that is neither a trash target or a good target, but rather an averaged together oddball ID. I have dug more than a few good coins that way, often with a shallow trash target over the top of a deeper coin.
A gain of 4 has its place, some are finding reducing the gain when at the beach results in far less salt related falsing on the wet sand. This allows you to run the sens hotter resulting in an overall improvement for both depth and stability. That said when hunting deep targets on land a gain of 4 may result in missing some deeper coins. As a rule I run my gain at 7 which is the highest I can run it in our soil and maintain a reasonably stable machine. Even so I remember one deep on edge silver dime that barely made a peep it was so faint. I walked past it at first, backed up swept it again, it was there but very faint. I bumped the gain to 8 and it sounded much better. With my gain at 4 or 5 I doubt I would have heard it.
That said I would increase sensitivity before gain as a rule, or rather I might reduce my gain to 5 or 6 before I reduced sensitivity below say 23.
Also the Explorer has a habbit of averaging disimilar targets together resulting in a TID that is neither a trash target or a good target, but rather an averaged together oddball ID. I have dug more than a few good coins that way, often with a shallow trash target over the top of a deeper coin.
A gain of 4 has its place, some are finding reducing the gain when at the beach results in far less salt related falsing on the wet sand. This allows you to run the sens hotter resulting in an overall improvement for both depth and stability. That said when hunting deep targets on land a gain of 4 may result in missing some deeper coins. As a rule I run my gain at 7 which is the highest I can run it in our soil and maintain a reasonably stable machine. Even so I remember one deep on edge silver dime that barely made a peep it was so faint. I walked past it at first, backed up swept it again, it was there but very faint. I bumped the gain to 8 and it sounded much better. With my gain at 4 or 5 I doubt I would have heard it.
That said I would increase sensitivity before gain as a rule, or rather I might reduce my gain to 5 or 6 before I reduced sensitivity below say 23.
The ICONS add a visual method to help in trying to ID a target. If the target is shallow or comes in nice and strong then it is easy to look down and see a Nail/Screw ICON. However, as you say on the ultra deep targets we need to use caution. I have been impressed with the accuracy of the icons compared to other machines I have used. For most of the others they are a waste of technology and serve no purpose in my opinion. They are just like saying it may or may not be a good target.