I was looking at metals conductivity list and I started to wonder why some people use a nickle to set their discrimination when coinshooting. Since nickles are actually made of a large percentage of copper it actually puts them higher on the conductivity scale than gold. Granted, if coinshooting you're looking for coins, not pop-tops and aluminum comes in close to gold. But, if I'm coinshooting I wouldn't want to rule out a gold ring or gold jewelry and I would rather dig a few ring tabs than miss gold. Wouldn't it be better to set your discrimination to just knock out a modern penny, since they're made up of a large percentage of zinc and zinc is lower in conductivity than gold?
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Coinshooting and Progressive Discrimination
- Thread starter Canewrap
- Start date
Zinc might be lower than gold, but with that copper wash/coating they come in higher than alot of gold does. On my T-2, I get copper cents at 81, zinc at 78 and nickels at 58. If I wanted gold rings I would go as far down as I could stand it, no higher than 10.
Each model is different of course.
Each model is different of course.
canewrap, I can tell you're new at this 
You're making a lot of leaps, assumptions, etc.... For starters, alloys (forget the percentages for a second) make a BIG impact on the net conductivity. For example: Gold, in its pure form (24k) is a VERY high conductor. Now stop and think for a second: 12K would be exactly half pure, right? So then one might *assume* that an 18k ring would be somewhere around a mid-conductor, right? (because it is well over half pure gold). But no, that's not the case at all. If you took the average small ladies ring that's 18k, you would find it could read down at foil even. A man's chunky 18k ring would of course, be higher (around nickel or tab, depending on weight/size).
These things show that 1) alloys greatly skew the resultant TID, and simply going by percentages alone (assuming the TID will be leaning towards the composition that is greatest) is not correct. 2) the size of the object also has a great deal to do with the net TID. In addition to the 18k ring size scenario I gave, also consider that a tab, and an entire aluminum can, have vastly different TID's, right? (a full pepsi can will read up at quarter or whatever, quite high). But wait! the composition in each case hasn't changed. They are both still made of the same metal: aluminum. Thus size plays into it.
Then you say: "But, if I'm coinshooting I wouldn't want to rule out a gold ring or gold jewelry and I would rather dig a few ring tabs than miss gold" If you think it's that easy, you haven't been exposed to the harsh cruel realities of the md'ing world Go ahead and set your disc. down to below "ring tabs", and yes, you won't miss gold rings that come in at that TID or higher. Sure But if you think that means only digging "a few" tabs, you are not hunting junky areas. I can think of parks where your ratios would be more like 200 aluminum shrapnel/tabs/wads (yes, even tuning out the lower foil-range conductors) to each gold ring.
But back to your initial question, your best bet is to get a nickel, and a variety of tabs & gold rings, and do lots of air testing. You'll see then how nickels compare. And don't be fooled on this one point: by doing those air tests you may see that your sample gold rings hit at a certain area, whereas your same tabs, can-slaw, etc... reads somewhere else on your TID screen. This does not mean at all that gold hits in one area, while aluminum hits in another area. Because you see, so TOO does each gold ring hit differently than each other also. And for any spot on the TID screen you get a gold ring to ring in at, I guarantee you that I can wad up, or cut up a piece of aluminum, to exactly mimic that same TID coordinate. And likewise, for a coordinate I get a particular tab or can-slaw to ring at, there are going to be gold rings that read right there too. In other words, gold and aluminum share the same conductivity (size per size).
Now "ring enhancement" programs are another thing. They simply tune out the most commonly recurring aluminum junk. Ie.: unbroken tabs, etc.. and tuning in where exhaustive testings have shown most gold rings to fall. But gauranteed, to do that, you will miss some gold rings, and will dig lots of junk if in a junky blighted park.
Your best bet, if you want to up your gold ring finds, is not to worry about disc. patterns at all. Simply go to hunt sites where gold jewelry is most likely to be, to begin with. Namely swimming beaches. And sand is much easier to dig in too.
You're making a lot of leaps, assumptions, etc.... For starters, alloys (forget the percentages for a second) make a BIG impact on the net conductivity. For example: Gold, in its pure form (24k) is a VERY high conductor. Now stop and think for a second: 12K would be exactly half pure, right? So then one might *assume* that an 18k ring would be somewhere around a mid-conductor, right? (because it is well over half pure gold). But no, that's not the case at all. If you took the average small ladies ring that's 18k, you would find it could read down at foil even. A man's chunky 18k ring would of course, be higher (around nickel or tab, depending on weight/size). These things show that 1) alloys greatly skew the resultant TID, and simply going by percentages alone (assuming the TID will be leaning towards the composition that is greatest) is not correct. 2) the size of the object also has a great deal to do with the net TID. In addition to the 18k ring size scenario I gave, also consider that a tab, and an entire aluminum can, have vastly different TID's, right? (a full pepsi can will read up at quarter or whatever, quite high). But wait! the composition in each case hasn't changed. They are both still made of the same metal: aluminum. Thus size plays into it.
Then you say: "But, if I'm coinshooting I wouldn't want to rule out a gold ring or gold jewelry and I would rather dig a few ring tabs than miss gold" If you think it's that easy, you haven't been exposed to the harsh cruel realities of the md'ing world
Go ahead and set your disc. down to below "ring tabs", and yes, you won't miss gold rings that come in at that TID or higher. Sure But if you think that means only digging "a few" tabs, you are not hunting junky areas. I can think of parks where your ratios would be more like 200 aluminum shrapnel/tabs/wads (yes, even tuning out the lower foil-range conductors) to each gold ring. But back to your initial question, your best bet is to get a nickel, and a variety of tabs & gold rings, and do lots of air testing. You'll see then how nickels compare. And don't be fooled on this one point: by doing those air tests you may see that your sample gold rings hit at a certain area, whereas your same tabs, can-slaw, etc... reads somewhere else on your TID screen. This does not mean at all that gold hits in one area, while aluminum hits in another area. Because you see, so TOO does each gold ring hit differently than each other also. And for any spot on the TID screen you get a gold ring to ring in at, I guarantee you that I can wad up, or cut up a piece of aluminum, to exactly mimic that same TID coordinate. And likewise, for a coordinate I get a particular tab or can-slaw to ring at, there are going to be gold rings that read right there too. In other words, gold and aluminum share the same conductivity (size per size).
Now "ring enhancement" programs are another thing. They simply tune out the most commonly recurring aluminum junk. Ie.: unbroken tabs, etc.. and tuning in where exhaustive testings have shown most gold rings to fall. But gauranteed, to do that, you will miss some gold rings, and will dig lots of junk if in a junky blighted park.
Your best bet, if you want to up your gold ring finds, is not to worry about disc. patterns at all. Simply go to hunt sites where gold jewelry is most likely to be, to begin with. Namely swimming beaches. And sand is much easier to dig in too.
I'm new in the sense that I don't coinshoot much at all. I've been relic hunting for the last 3 years, and I'm considering getting more into looking for old coins. The reason I was looking at the disc thing at all is because I've been using a Musketeer that I like and if I'm going to do any coinshooting with it, helps to know where to set the disc. Yes, I do know that ground conditions, as well as alloy composition can change the game. Just thought I had a good starting point with a progressive disc type of setup. Guess I was wrong, not the first time, and won't be the last I'm sure.
grumpyolman
New member
Nice post Tom in CA!!! Darn near a seminar in itself. As I read it I find myself agreeing right along with your points as having been my experience as well. Jim
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
Great post Tom. I have found gold rings everywhere from small foil, small rings, to zinc cents, large men's class rings and everywhere in between. To make hunting jewelry more fun yet, chains, bracelets, and platinum rings will read lower yet, right down to the ferrous zone.
I never go beyond just setting a detector to give a broken signal on small iron nails. Dig the rest and you will be finding the gold the others leave.
To improve your chances more on gold you can select a detector who's specific frequency is where the discrimination calculation peaks for that metal. I've posted lots on this in the past on this forum.
Next consider the amplitude of the detector at that frequency.
Then add to the mix that higher frequencies and smaller targets both require a longer time for the current and signal to build so multifrequency isn't the best choice as they are unable to take the best advantage of an individual frequency.
If no one removes the rubbish from parks you will end up, due to target masking, with what appears to the detector to be a solid sheet of foil/pull tabs.
To improve your chances more on gold you can select a detector who's specific frequency is where the discrimination calculation peaks for that metal. I've posted lots on this in the past on this forum.
Next consider the amplitude of the detector at that frequency.
Then add to the mix that higher frequencies and smaller targets both require a longer time for the current and signal to build so multifrequency isn't the best choice as they are unable to take the best advantage of an individual frequency.
If no one removes the rubbish from parks you will end up, due to target masking, with what appears to the detector to be a solid sheet of foil/pull tabs.
BarnacleBill
New member
First let's get one myth set aside. Gold in it's pure form 24K does NOT have very high electrical conductivity, and in metal detecting applications not even high electrical conductivity. Many people believe Gold has high conductivity because they've seen it used in low power electronic circuitry. It is NOT used because of it's stellar electrical conductivity properties, but is used because of its stellar corrosion resistance when plated over Copper. As a matter of fact the use of Gold in a contact carrying High Current is a very bad idea that will soon prove itself to you if one is a non-believer in that tidbit.
Gold Jewelry....all of the items one looks for are influenced ID wise by their shape, surface area, & mass. i.e. Dimes ID lower than a Quarter. Therefore Gold coins of similar size would ID higher & lower just as the Silver coins.
Holding size, shape, & mass constant for a Gold ring at the same alloy ratio i.e. 14K gold contains 14 parts gold and 10 parts of another metal(s), making it 58.3% gold.
Adding Copper as the "other" alloy, which has higher electrical conductivity than pure Gold to create Rose Gold will cause our ring to read up the ID scale.
Adding Palladium as the "other" alloy, which has lower electrical conductivity than pure Gold to create White Gold will cause our ring to read down the ID scale.
As two widely divergent ID's a Ladies thin White Gold ring will read way down the scale in the Foil region & a Men's heavy Rose Gold Class ring can reach up towards Zinc pennies which are copper plated.
Finding Gold Jewelry is about time & location. One, is this a location that heavily favors losing Gold Jewelry? Two, is time, which is directly related to the quantity & ID consistency of the trash. In order to deal effectively with trash a Progressive Disc detector is going to leave you digging much more trash than a detector that can notch out the more common trash items you are finding. If you are immortal and have the time to dig every last item, then you are going to find more Gold Jewelry than using a notch type detector. If your time on Earth is limited, then having a detector that can remove an offending item that is causing you to stop in your tracks i.e. An area littered with Square Tabs that ID at 26 consistently, will help you find more Gold. Yes you will miss the Gold item that ID's at 26 but you can cover much more territory and find the Gold items that don't ID at 26.
Does this mean a Progressive Disc cannot be used? No of course not, in certain locations with no modern trash they will work fine, with the only other nasty culprit besides iron being .22cal slugs and corroded cartridges, lead shot, & lead sinkers etc. Because they do not have a consistent ID and dance around from foil to just above a Nickel in ID, they can be very pesky even with a notching detector.
Some informational links:
http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/electrical.html
http://jewelry.about.com/cs/goldbuyingtips/a/gold_alloys.htm
HH
BarnacleBill
P.S. My post is NOT meant to offend anyone, simply to provide accurate information.
Gold Jewelry....all of the items one looks for are influenced ID wise by their shape, surface area, & mass. i.e. Dimes ID lower than a Quarter. Therefore Gold coins of similar size would ID higher & lower just as the Silver coins.
Holding size, shape, & mass constant for a Gold ring at the same alloy ratio i.e. 14K gold contains 14 parts gold and 10 parts of another metal(s), making it 58.3% gold.
Adding Copper as the "other" alloy, which has higher electrical conductivity than pure Gold to create Rose Gold will cause our ring to read up the ID scale.
Adding Palladium as the "other" alloy, which has lower electrical conductivity than pure Gold to create White Gold will cause our ring to read down the ID scale.
As two widely divergent ID's a Ladies thin White Gold ring will read way down the scale in the Foil region & a Men's heavy Rose Gold Class ring can reach up towards Zinc pennies which are copper plated.
Finding Gold Jewelry is about time & location. One, is this a location that heavily favors losing Gold Jewelry? Two, is time, which is directly related to the quantity & ID consistency of the trash. In order to deal effectively with trash a Progressive Disc detector is going to leave you digging much more trash than a detector that can notch out the more common trash items you are finding. If you are immortal and have the time to dig every last item, then you are going to find more Gold Jewelry than using a notch type detector. If your time on Earth is limited, then having a detector that can remove an offending item that is causing you to stop in your tracks i.e. An area littered with Square Tabs that ID at 26 consistently, will help you find more Gold. Yes you will miss the Gold item that ID's at 26 but you can cover much more territory and find the Gold items that don't ID at 26.
Does this mean a Progressive Disc cannot be used? No of course not, in certain locations with no modern trash they will work fine, with the only other nasty culprit besides iron being .22cal slugs and corroded cartridges, lead shot, & lead sinkers etc. Because they do not have a consistent ID and dance around from foil to just above a Nickel in ID, they can be very pesky even with a notching detector.
Some informational links:
http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/periodic/electrical.html
http://jewelry.about.com/cs/goldbuyingtips/a/gold_alloys.htm
HH
BarnacleBill
P.S. My post is NOT meant to offend anyone, simply to provide accurate information.
ChuckDiggin it in Florida
New member
I have tested many dozens of woman's gold rings that I found waterhunting and the vast majority numerically fall from well below pulltabs to right in the pulltab range, up to [ not many ] the older circular ring pulltab. In general, only a man's larger ring would hit like a nickel or above. The nickel became popular as a ring test target from dealers and manufacturers selling PI units, who wanted to show greater depth results, by using a nickel as a standard, when a target well below pulltabs to right in the pulltab range would have been a more accurate standard, but would have greatly reduced the test results of the pulse induction units being sold. Of course, that's also true with regular detectors too. You will hit a nickel much deeper than an average woman's gold ring [the ones of the greatest value=diamonds!
Hope this helps?
Get a few of your wife's gold rings, a man's gold ring and a nickel and test it out on your ID detector!
Hope this helps?
Get a few of your wife's gold rings, a man's gold ring and a nickel and test it out on your ID detector!
Canewrap said:
barnacle bill, perhaps it isn't correct to say that pure gold is a very high conductor, size-per-size when compared with pure silver for instance. But I would still say gold, in pure form, is a highER conductor.
One time I found a ring that appeared to be gold, yet read up nearly at penny range. I assumed it wasn't gold, because ... given its small size, the TID seemed too high to be gold. There were only a few chinese characters on the inside of the ring, which I couldn't read. Later I found out that it was pure gold, which some jewelers in the orient are known to work with. This explained why the TID was so high, and not commensurate with what I was used to in 10k, 14k, etc... rings.
So if you say pure gold is not a high conductor, why does a pure gold ring (even a small one) read up so high?
One time I found a ring that appeared to be gold, yet read up nearly at penny range. I assumed it wasn't gold, because ... given its small size, the TID seemed too high to be gold. There were only a few chinese characters on the inside of the ring, which I couldn't read. Later I found out that it was pure gold, which some jewelers in the orient are known to work with. This explained why the TID was so high, and not commensurate with what I was used to in 10k, 14k, etc... rings.
So if you say pure gold is not a high conductor, why does a pure gold ring (even a small one) read up so high?
I agree with Tom in the fact that you really need to consider the likelihood of finding jewelry in the places that you hunt. I am basically a coinshooter and when I go to my area parks I generally do not have a lot of time to dedicated to digging every signal. I accept the fact that I am giving up gold rings unless they fall into the nickel range because if I get a steady nickel signal I will dig it. I'm okay with that because I enjoy finding old coins and this is not a "for profit" hobby to me. I use a coin program when I am hunting trashy parks (which is most of the time) but if I hit a wood chip tot lot, football or soccer fields, or I am hunting at an area lake or swimming area where I am likely to find gold then I will turn the discrimination down and just dig until I get tired of it and go back to my coin program. I think that it all a matter of perspective and for me this is just a hobby and my job is what I count on for my living.
david bull
Well-known member
I have found a swim area (30+years old) where the "blanket/grassy area" is heavilly littered with pulltabs.Last spring I went on a quest to find the gold jewelry lost there.I set my disc just below nails(xl-pro) and dug every day for a week.Each day I filled my pouch with tabs and only a few coins including nickels,some junk rings and a few pieces of silver jewelry.I still believe there is gold there masked by all the trash and I'll probably hit it again.In the sandy area I have dug an antique wedding ring(white gold-vdi ,a large mens class ring(saladium w/small gold crest-vdi4),a 10k mens ring w/dad on top vdi-30,a small hoop earring 18k-vdi40 and some others I can't remember(I found 21 gold rings last year).If you're serious about finding gold jewelry, you can pretty well forget about discing anything that falls above zero.If your time is limited you can pretty forget attemping trashed areas like this.I also believe when you disc pulltabs you also disc any thing that lies underneath them.DBULL
,a large mens class ring(saladium w/small gold crest-vdi4),a 10k mens ring w/dad on top vdi-30,a small hoop earring 18k-vdi40 and some others I can't remember(I found 21 gold rings last year).If you're serious about finding gold jewelry, you can pretty well forget about discing anything that falls above zero.If your time is limited you can pretty forget attemping trashed areas like this.I also believe when you disc pulltabs you also disc any thing that lies underneath them.DBULLBarnacleBill
New member
Tom,
I believe it has to do with mass, in your case possibly thickness. Below are pictured two 14K Yellow Gold rings of about the same overall diameter. But looking at the X-Terra ID scale one is almost twice the ID number, which is because of it's thickness.
[attachment 153850 gold_targets2.jpg]
The two pictured rings are highlighted in the ID table below.
[attachment 153851 salttarg3.jpg]
HH
BarnacleBill
I believe it has to do with mass, in your case possibly thickness. Below are pictured two 14K Yellow Gold rings of about the same overall diameter. But looking at the X-Terra ID scale one is almost twice the ID number, which is because of it's thickness.
[attachment 153850 gold_targets2.jpg]
The two pictured rings are highlighted in the ID table below.
[attachment 153851 salttarg3.jpg]
HH
BarnacleBill
ChuckDiggin it in Florida
New member
No doubt, mass = higher readings. I assume these are both larger men's rings?
A woman's diamond engagement ring should be nealy 1/2 of that!
A woman's diamond engagement ring should be nealy 1/2 of that!
BarnacleBill said:
BarnacleBill
New member
n/t
ChuckDiggin it in Florida
New member
Hi Bill
Glad to hear that! I too use a CZ-20 again. Sold the Excalibur. I think the Excal has a definate edge on the CZ, but I don't dare own one out of warranty!
The Excal is built to break down!
Some may disagree, but i've sent Excals in for repair a few times and only sent in 1 CZ-20 and that was for the pinpoint rubber button-which I have learned not to use at all!
Hope that CZ lasts you a long, long time!!
HH,
Chuck,Diggin'it in Florida
Glad to hear that! I too use a CZ-20 again. Sold the Excalibur. I think the Excal has a definate edge on the CZ, but I don't dare own one out of warranty!
The Excal is built to break down!
Some may disagree, but i've sent Excals in for repair a few times and only sent in 1 CZ-20 and that was for the pinpoint rubber button-which I have learned not to use at all!
Hope that CZ lasts you a long, long time!!
HH,
Chuck,Diggin'it in Florida
BarnacleBill said: