Cibola vs CZ-5?

[GT]

Hi folks I'm new to this Forum and hail from Washington state,

I'd like to get some opinions here. I recently purchased a Cibola and I'm very happy with it. It is a deep machine and discriminates well in trash (especially iron.) I have an opportunity to purchase a CZ-5 which I've heard is also a very nice machine.

Could anyone comment on whether I would gain any additional "finding power" with the CZ-5 that I don't already have with the Cibola?

I've read a few comment at Metal Detector Reviews by Jerry from TX that the Cibola goes deeper than the CZ-5? Is this the experience of others? Any comments would be appreciated.

(Note: I will be posting this same question at the Fisher forum as well)

Thanks,
Gus(WA)

 

[GT]

Very interesting, nobody has responded to this question either here at the or at the Fisher forum. I'm guessing this means nobody knows or people are keeping quiet about how well the Cibola works...

 

[GT]

n/t

 

[Doug[Manila]]

Hi GT,
Here in Manila, the Tesoros work well. I had a CZ5 and it was kind of iffy in the mineralized soil that I hunt.
The CZ5 excels in our white sand beaches. The Tesoros are better iron discriminators and also superior in iron-infested areas. After saying all that, everything is relative to the soil you have...best you get to try both and decide for yourself.

 

[GT]

Hi Doug!

Finally an answer! Great!!! How would you compare one to the other as far as depth goes? My soil is on the mineralized side and I haven't had any problem with the Cibola in minerals or iron and it does go deep. Would you say the CZ-5 go as deep or deeper?

It would help if you could give me some examples such as how deep the CZ-5 will go on a white sand beach, since this is the kind of environment that it works well in, on a modern dime for instance (any examples would help).

Do you own the Cibola or another Tesoro detector?

Thanks,
Gus

 

[Jackpine Savage]

Hi Gus,

On low mineral fresh water beaches the Cibola will beat the CZ5 on nickels by a couple of inches. Can't say on dimes and such as I never tested either one for that, on the beach if it hits nickels good ya know its gonna be good on jewelry.

Tom

 

[GT]

Hi Tom,

You've come to the rescue again! This is one data point, but it is an EXCELLENT data point. I think a nickle would be harder to detect than a dime so I'll make the leap of faith that if a Cibola goes deeper on a nickle it will do the same on a dime, quarter, or silver dollar. I think there's building consensus that the Cibola does better in iron and minerals than the CZ-5. And since I don't have pristine, mineral-free soil, this would give another tick up for the Cibola.

As much as I like collecting metal detectors I must be practical and spare a few empty cubic feet of space in our home for my wife and children to move around in.



As always thanks!!!

Gus

 

[Doug[Manila]]

Hi Gus,

Am glad that Tom replied. I had long disposed of my CZ5 years before I got my Vaquero.

Our soil is badly mineralized (also part of volcano belt in Asia) with lots of trashy sites.
At the time, I had a Bandido 2mm and it was able to go no more than 4-5 inches in the places that I hunt. Now with the Vaquero, I cannot say that I have found coins deeper than five inches. The Tesoros have been consistent relic magnets as they have good discrimination & had smaller coil for the trashy areas.

The CZ5 could not work well on our mineralized ground and the meter was so iffy. I had both the 8 & 10 inch coils. The CZ5 did work well on our beaches and I did find a couple of gold rings with it down to 5-6 inches. The pinpointing was also very accurate and I found local coins on the beach down 7-10 inches...remember to dig all on the beach even if the meter says its iron.

Hope this helps,

 

[JB(MS)]

The Cibola has preset ground balance, which is fine for some soil conditions but not so good for others. And being hot on nickels, rings and other low conductive targets certainly doesn't mean it will do as well on higher conductive coins. I've posted this before but here's a few things George Payne has said about frequency and preset vs manual ground balance. George is responsible for most of the features found on todays detectors, including manual, auto and preset ground balance. You can read the entire article on ground balance at http://www.jb-ms.com/Baron/gb.htm.

<b><i>"The best frequency for Nickels is about 16.5KHz. This is where the R component is maximum for Nickels. For the motion discrimination mode you would want to be at this frequency or higher but keep in mind that while higher frequencies are great for Nickels, rings and jewelry you lose on higer conductive coins. For example, a dime R peaks at about 2.7KHz so a frequency in that range will be best for higher conductive coins.

Most ground produces a phase that falls somewhere between zero (ferrite) and a -5 degrees. Some highly magnetic soils can have a phase that is quite low, but it can never be zero. The introduction of the Motion detector solved this problem.....sort of. In a Motion detector design (preset ground balanced) you can calibrate the “fixed” ground adjust control phase to approximately +0.5 degrees and set the audio threshold for silent operation. If that is done the detector will appear not to respond to the ground. In reality it is responding. Its just that you don’t hear it since all ground reactions cause the audio to decrease in volume and since the audio is already silent you don’t hear anything. Remember I said that all real targets, which includes the ground, have a phase between zero and some negative value. The preset ground control phase of +0.5 degrees is in a location where no real targets ever exist. Therefore, you never have a condition where you are balanced to anything, least of all the ground. There is no question that a fixed detector design would be less sensitive than a design with a manual adjustment. It is interesting to note that normally an air test will not reveal any difference between the two. The reduction in sensitivity will only take place when you use the fixed ground balanced detector in mineralized ground. For fixed (preset ground balanced) machines the phase error between the internal “ground preset balance” and the actual ground condition can be much more than “slight”. Remember, the internal preset is calibrated for +0.5 degrees. This is in an area where a real ground phase never occurs. The actual ground phase may be -2 or -3 degrees “negative“. That’s a huge difference, maybe 2.5 to 3.5 degrees. This much phase error will in effect cutoff several inches of detection depth."</i></b>

 

[Bowtie41]

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[Bowtie41]

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[Jackpine Savage]

on the GB issue. However, I have talked with users and dealers around the country and the general consensus seems to be that, except for highly mineralized ground conditions there is very little if any difference in depth and stability of operation between the C & V.

Point of fact, on Lake Michigan beaches the Cibola goes from slightly positive at the waters edge to slightly negative in damp sand areas away from the water which is where I test machines. The Cibola is every bit as deep as the high $$ detectors with manual GB I have tested despite having this negative response. I have no idea why the Cibola gives this kind of performance in various conditions, but it does. I called Tesoro last fall after the V & C came out and explained to Vince the varying conditions I run into while hunting fresh water beaches and wading. He didn't even hesitate in recommending the Cibola over the Vaquero for my purposes.

I'm not trying to contradict George Payne, just pointing out that preset GB can and does work very well for a lot of us.

HH Tom

 

[GT]

Hi Doug, it seems the CZ-5 may have a bit more problems with discrimination which in turn gives it a harder time in mineralized soils than the Tesoro machines.

Thanks for your input!

 

[GT]

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[Bowtie41]

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[rentasquid]

When you were talking about the peak frequency of dimes and nickels, a light kind of clicked on in my head. Let me see if I understand this better...If you have a coin with a lower KHz peak, such as a silver quarter, a detector with that runs at a lower Khz would get a greater response, and the same goes with a higher KHz item such as gold or a nickel? That would probably be why Tesoro designed most of their detectors to run in a mid-range (except for the newer ones)? And associated with that, that is why my detector(runs at 12 KHz) hits pretty good on nickels, but moderately so on quarters?

Thanks for posting that info. It helps me to understand better than someone saying..."it just works that way".

J.

 

[JB(MS)]

Not only does the frequency have a bearing on the response to targets with different conductivity properties, so does the ground balance. If a detector is balanced even a little too positive it will lose sensitivity and depth on higher conductive coins, especially small coins like dimes. Here's something Gary Finch said about frequency.

"<b><i>I've done a lot of research and field tests on this over the years, and the results have consistently indicated that a detector with an operating frequency between 10 and 15 KHZ does the best job on a wide variety of targets, from relics to gold nuggets. This is one reason Tesoro detectors are so popular as all around units: most of them operate between 10 and 12.5 KHZ, where they are extremely efficient.

My conclusions about operating frequency have come from years of tests, both the usual in-ground tests on buried targets, (which of course are always a little subjective, even in the most unbiased), and many scientific tests on buried targets to determine the amount of voltage response generated, using an oscilloscope and recorder, etc. (No big deal about this, I just wanted to learn the truth about it for myself, and had the necessary equipment).

I've talked with George Payne about this, and this was one reason why he designed the Treasure Baron as a 12.5 KHZ single frequency unit: after a lot of tests he came to the same conclusion. This was the optimum frequency for detecting all metals.</i></b>"

 

[rentasquid]

does the Cib, Vac, and Tej. do so well with coins, when they are at a much higher Freq.?, or is that the frequency in which they operate at, statistically insignificantly when compared to the 10-12.5 detectors? Is it that the newer detectors are "amplified" in some manner to give the sensation that they hit those targets stronger? I'm sure that my ignorance is projecting loud and clear right about now!

J.

 

[Monte]

in the wet mineralized beaches, but is the Disc. mode's GB too negative? It might be set a little more positive than the AM's setting, much like some Garrett Ace 250 and GTAx type modes with a too-negative GB in Pinpoint?

Monte

 

[Jackpine Savage]

the disc mode response and I'll pop over there tomorrow to see. I was not aware the all metal P/P and disc modes may differ.

Thanks
Tom